A More Realistic Look At The HOF...

[GlitchMarner]

I've provided the best adjusted point totals (in seasons of at least 75 games played) as well as top 50 scoring placements and VsX 7 and VsX 10 scores of certain Hall of Famers. It seems to me people on here generally overrate the threshold. If actual inductees are used as a precedent, there are multiple legitimate candidates among active players. I would say anyone with a VsX 7 score higher than McDonald's deserves a look and anyone with a VsX 7 scorer higher than Modano's and/or Sundin's is a good candidate...

Learn more about VsX 7 and VsX 10 here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/reference-vsx-comprehensive-summary-1927-to-2017.2215905/

All but six of the NHL's top 63 scorers all-time who are retired and eligible are in the HOF:

NHL Leaders

Rank	Player	Years	PTS
1.	Wayne Gretzky*	1979-99	2857
2.	Jaromir Jagr	1990-18	1921
3.	Mark Messier*	1979-04	1887
4.	Gordie Howe*	1946-80	1850
5.	Ron Francis*	1981-04	1798
6.	Marcel Dionne*	1971-89	1771
7.	Steve Yzerman*	1983-06	1755
8.	Mario Lemieux*	1984-06	1723
9.	Joe Sakic*	1988-09	1641
10.	Phil Esposito*	1963-81	1590
11.	Ray Bourque*	1979-01	1579
12.	Mark Recchi*	1988-11	1533
13.	Paul Coffey*	1980-01	1531
14.	Stan Mikita*	1958-80	1467
15.	Teemu Selanne*	1992-14	1457
16.	Joe Thornton	1997-19	1428
17.	Bryan Trottier*	1975-94	1425
18.	Adam Oates*	1985-04	1420
19.	Doug Gilmour*	1983-03	1414
20.	Dale Hawerchuk*	1981-97	1409
21.	Jari Kurri*	1980-98	1398
22.	Luc Robitaille*	1986-06	1394
23.	Brett Hull*	1986-06	1391
24.	Mike Modano*	1989-11	1374
25.	John Bucyk*	1955-78	1369
26.	Brendan Shanahan*	1987-09	1354
27.	Guy Lafleur*	1971-91	1353
28.	Mats Sundin*	1990-09	1349
29.	Denis Savard*	1980-97	1338
	Dave Andreychuk*	1982-06	1338
31.	Mike Gartner*	1979-98	1335
32.	Pierre Turgeon	1987-07	1327
33.	Gilbert Perreault*	1970-87	1326
34.	Jarome Iginla	1996-17	1300
35.	Alex Delvecchio*	1950-74	1281
36.	Al MacInnis*	1981-04	1274
37.	Jean Ratelle*	1960-81	1267
38.	Peter Stastny*	1980-95	1239
39.	Phil Housley*	1982-03	1232
40.	Norm Ullman*	1955-75	1229
41.	Jean Beliveau*	1950-71	1219
42.	Larry Murphy*	1980-01	1217
43.	Jeremy Roenick	1988-09	1216
44.	Bobby Clarke*	1969-84	1210
45.	Bernie Nicholls	1981-99	1209
46.	Vincent Damphousse	1986-04	1205
47.	Dino Ciccarelli*	1980-99	1200
48.	Rod Brind'Amour	1989-10	1184
49.	Sergei Fedorov*	1990-09	1179
50.	Bobby Hull*	1957-80	1170
51.	Daniel Alfredsson	1995-14	1157
52.	Michel Goulet*	1979-94	1153
53.	Nicklas Lidstrom*	1991-12	1142
54.	Marian Hossa	1997-17	1134
55.	Patrick Marleau	1997-19	1133
56.	Bernie Federko*	1976-90	1130
57.	Joe Nieuwendyk*	1986-07	1126
	Mike Bossy*	1977-87	1126
59.	Alex Ovechkin	2005-19	1125
60.	Darryl Sittler*	1970-85	1121
61.	Sidney Crosby	2005-19	1118
62.	Frank Mahovlich*	1956-74	1103
63.	Glenn Anderson*	1980-96	1099

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

64.	Theoren Fleury	1988-03	1088
65.	Henrik Sedin	2000-18	1070
66.	Dave Taylor	1977-94	1069
67.	Keith Tkachuk	1991-10	1065
68.	Ray Whitney	1991-14	1064
69.	Joe Mullen*	1981-97	1063
70.	Pat Verbeek	1982-02	1062
71.	Denis Potvin*	1973-88	1052
72.	Henri Richard*	1955-75	1046
73.	Daniel Sedin	2000-18	1041
74.	Bobby Smith	1978-93	1036
75.	Martin St. Louis*	1998-15	1033
	Doug Weight	1991-11	1033
77.	Alexander Mogilny	1989-06	1032
78.	Alex Kovalev	1992-13	1029
79.	Brian Leetch*	1987-06	1028
80.	Patrik Elias	1995-16	1025
81.	Brian Bellows	1982-99	1022
82.	Rod Gilbert*	1960-78	1021
83.	Dale Hunter	1980-99	1020
84.	Pat LaFontaine*	1983-98	1013
85.	Steve Larmer	1980-95	1012
86.	Lanny McDonald*	1973-89	1006
87.	Brian Propp	1979-94	1004
88.	Paul Kariya*	1994-10	989
89.	Rick Middleton	1974-88	988
90.	Dave Keon*	1960-82	986
91.	Andy Bathgate*	1952-71	973
92.	Shane Doan	1995-17	972
93.	Maurice Richard*	1942-60	966
94.	Henrik Zetterberg	2002-18	960
95.	Kirk Muller	1984-03	959
96.	Larry Robinson*	1972-92	958
97.	Rick Tocchet	1984-02	952
98.	Vincent Lecavalier	1998-16	949
99.	Chris Chelios*	1983-10	948
100.	Jason Arnott	1993-12	938

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Mats Sundin:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: One (4th)
Top ten: Two (4th, 7th)
top 15: Six (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th)
Top 20: Eight (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th)
Top 30: 12 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th)
Top 40: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)
Top 50: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

97
95
92
91
87
85
81
80
80
77
77
67
53

Under 75 games played:

1995: 81 adjusted points (shortened season: 47 GP)
2000: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
2006: 76 adjusted points in 70 GP
2007: 77 adjusted points in 75 GP
2008: 84 adjusted points in 74 GP
2009: 28 adjusted points in 41 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1995: 82 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
2006: 89 adjusted point pace
2007: 84 adjusted point pace
2008: 93 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 82.1

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Ryan Getzlaf: 83.7
(Active, three top ten scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist, Cup)
Ilya Kovalchuk: 83.9
(Active, Rocket Richard, five top ten scoring finishes, AS-1, AS-2)
Nicklas Backstrom: 87.7
(Active, four top ten scoring finishes, Cup)
Claude Giroux: 88.0
(Active, three top five scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist)
Steven Stamkos: 88.4
(Active, two Rocket Richards, two-time AS-2, Hart finalist, four top five scoring finishes)
Patrick Kane: 89.2
(Active, three-time AS-1, Calder, Conn Smythe, Hart, Art Ross, three Cups, five top 10 scoring finishes)


VsX 10: 79.9

Mike Modano:​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: Two (8th, 9th)
top 15: Five (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th)
Top 20: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
Top 30: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
Top 40: 11 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th)
Top 50: 13 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, 41st, 46th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

95
92
91
89
88
86
84
78
75
75
68
62
61
57
50
47

Under 75 games played:

1995: 50 adjusted points (shortened season - 30 GP)
1998: 68 adjusted points in 52 GP
2007: 44 adjusted points in 59 GP
2010: 32 adjusted points in 59 GP
2011: 16 adjusted points in 40 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1995: 80 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
1998: 107 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 81.5

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Henrik Sedin: 84.5
John Tavares: 82.4
(Active, two top three Hart voting finishes)
Marian Hossa: 82.4
Daniel Alfredsson: 82.3
Phil Kessel: 82.0
(Active, four top ten scoring finishes, two Cups)
Theoren Fleury: 82.0
John LeClair: 81.7

VsX 10: 77.7

Lanny McDonald:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: Two (8th, 10th)
top 15: Five (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th)
Top 20: Five
Top 30: Six (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th)
Top 40: Eight (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th, 33rd, 39th)
Top 50: Eight

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

81
81
79
72
63
63
56

Under 75 games played:

1974: 28 adjusted points in 70 GP
1975: 38 adjusted points in 64 GP
1978: 78 adjusted points in 74 GP
1982: 60 adjusted points in 71 GP
1984: 52 adjusted points in 65 GP
1985: 29 adjusted points in 43 GP
1987: 22 adjusted points in 58 GP
1988: 19 adjusted points in 60 GP
1989: 15 adjusted points in 51 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1978: 88 adjusted point pace
1982: 69 adjusted point pace
1984: 66 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 74.1

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Pavol Demitra 74.5
Corey Perry 75.0
(Active, Hart, Rocket Richard, 2X AS-1, Cup)
Alex Kovalev 75.3
Joe Pavelski 75.8
Vincent Lecavalier 76.9
Alexei Yashin 77.1
Alexander Mogilny 77.7
Brad Richards 78.0
Blake Wheeler 78.3
Doug Weight 78.3
Tyler Seguin 78.7
Patrik Elias 78.9
Keith Tkachuk 79.0
Jason Spezza 79.1
Anze Kopitar 79.2
(Active, two Selkes, two Cups)
Henrik Zetterberg 79.5
(Recently retired, Conn Smythe, AS-2, Cup)
Daniel Sedin 79.9
(Recently retired, AS-1, AS-2, Pearson, Art Ross)
Ziggy Palffy 80.1
Eric Staal 80.2
Bernie Nicholls 80.6
Dany Heatley 81.0
Jeremy Roenick 81.2
Jamie Benn 81.4
(Active, Art Ross, AS-1, AS-1, AS-2)

VsX 10: 68.0

Glenn Anderson:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: One (9th)
Top 15: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
Top 20: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
Top 30: Five (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd)
Top 40: Six (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd)
Top 50: Seven (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd, 41st)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

78
77
74
64
61
53
52
37

Under 75 games played:

1981: 41 adjusted points in 58 GP
1983: 83 adjusted points in 72 GP
1986: 80 adjusted points in 72 GP
1990: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
1991: 48 adjusted points in 74 GP
1992: 50 adjusted points in 72 GP
1995: 45 adjusted points (shortened season - 36 GP)
1996: 14 adjusted points in 32 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1983: 95 adjusted point pace
1986: 91 adjusted point pace
1990: 69 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 72.0

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Rod Brind'Amour 72.6
Jonathan Toews 72.7
(Active, AS-2, Selke, Smythe, three Cups)
Ray Whitney 72.9
Jakub Voracek 72.9
Tony Amonte 73.0
Rick Martin 73.1
Milan Hejduk 73.1
Patrick Marleau 73.2
Rick MacLeish 73.3
Marc Savard 73.3
Alex Tanguay 73.4
Vincent Damphousse 74.0
Mike Ribeiro 74.1
Rick Middleton 74.1

VsX 10: 65.7

Joe Mullen:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: One (7th)
top 15: Two (7th, 14th)
Top 20: Four (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th)
Top 30: Seven (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th, 23rd, 26th, 29th)
Top 40: Seven
Top 50: Seven

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

91
77
74
73
70
70
67
64
58

Under 75 games played:

1982: 43 adjusted points in 45 GP
1983: 38 adjusted points in 49 GP
1991: 34 adjusted points in 47 GP
1993: 57 adjusted points in 72 GP
1995: 64 adjusted points (shortened season - 45 GP)
1996: 23 adjusted points in 54 GP
1997: 15 adjusted points in 37 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1982: 78 adjusted point pace
1993: 65 adjusted point pace
1995: 68 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 71.6

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Peter Bondra 72.0
Steve Larmer 71.9
Taylor Hall 71.8
(Active, Hart trophy, three top ten scoring finishes)

VsX 10: 66.6

Joe Nieuwendyk:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: None
top 15: One (15th)
Top 20: Three (15th, 16th, 17th)
Top 30: Five (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd)
Top 40: Six (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st)
Top 50: Seven (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st, 47th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

80
77
75
67
65
61
50

Under 75 games played:

1987: 5 adjusted points in 9 GP
1992: 50 adjusted points in 69 GP
1994: 68 adjusted points in 64 GP
1995: 86 adjusted points (shortened season - 46 GP)
1996: 30 adjusted points in 52 GP
1997: 53 adjusted points in 66 GP
1998: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
1999: 63 adjusted points in 67 GP
2000: 37 adjusted points in 48 GP
2001: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
2004: 58 adjusted points in 64 GP
2006: 55 adjusted points in 65 GP
2007: 8 adjusted points in 15 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1994: 87 adjusted point pace
1995: 90 adjusted point pace
1997: 66 adjusted point pace
1998: 89 adjusted point pace
1999: 77 adjusted point pace
2001: 68 adjusted point pace
2004: 74 adjusted point pace
2006: 69 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 70.3

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
Zach Parise 70.9
Rene Robert 71.0
Dennis Maruk 71.3
Kent Nilsson 71.3

VsX 10: 66.3

Dino Ciccarelli:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: Two (6th, 9th)
Top 15: Two (6th, 9th)
Top 20: Three (6th, 9th, 20th)
Top 30: Six (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th)
Top 40: Eight (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th)
Top 50: Ten (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th, 44th, 49th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

87
78
77
69
67
66
62
61
60
56

Under 75 games played:

1981: 23 adjusted points in 32 GP
1985: 25 adjusted points in 51 GP
1988: 72 adjusted points in 67 GP
1991: 35 adjusted points in 54 GP
1994: 51 adjusted points in 66 GP
1995: 75 adjusted points (shortened season - 42 GP)
1996: 41 adjusted points in 64 GP
1998: 39 adjusted points in 62 GP
1999: 8 adjusted points in 14 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1988: 88 adjusted point pace
1995: 86 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 69.8

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Marian Gaborik: 69.9
Dave Taylor: 70.2

VsX 10: 66.9

Mike Gartner:

​

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

81
73
72
72
67
67
65
62
62
58
57
57
55
52

Top five: None
Top ten: One (10th)
Top 15: One (10th)
Top 20: Two (10th, 17th)
Top 30: Five (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th)
Top 40: Eight (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th)
Top 50: 13 (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th, 42nd, 42nd, 45th, 45th, 50th)

Under 75 games played:

1983: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
1986: 58 adjusted points in 74 GP
1989: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
1995: 35 adjusted points (shortened season - 38 GP)
1998: 31 adjusted points in 60 GP

Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

1983: 69 adjusted point pace
1989: 68 adjusted point pace

VsX 7: 68.8

Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

Bobby Smith: 68.9
Rick Nash: 69.2

VsX 10: 66.0

Clark Gillies:

​

Scoring placements:

Top five: None
Top ten: One (10th)
Top 15: Two (10th, 13th)
Top 20: Two (10th, 13th)
Top 30: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
Top 40: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
Top 50: Four (10th, 13th, 30th, 47th)

Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

76
76
60
56
53
40
22

Under 75 games played:

1977: 49 adjusted points in 70 GP
1980: 46 adjusted points in 73 GP
1983: 33 adjusted points in 70 GP
1985: 25 adjusted points in 54 games played
1986: 11 adjusted points in 55 games played
1987: 22 adjusted points in 61 games
1988: 6 adjusted points in 25 games played

VsX 7: Not available

VsX 10: Not available

Click to read more...

 

[The Panther]

I don't know if people here over-rate the threshold -- I think it's more so a case of many of us wanting a stricter threshold than the one established by the Hall of Fame committee. Just because so-and-so was a mistake in the past doesn't mean we should repeat the mistake in the future.

The reality of such institutions as 'Hall of Fames' is this: The dividing-line between the "ins" and the "outs" is entirely arbitrary. But one concrete fact that isn't arbitrary is: the more people you put in, the lower the honor of being in becomes.

So, putting it crudely, it comes down to a question like the following -- do you want more to reward really good players or do you want more to make the Hall a more rarefied and venerable institution?


(As to the VsX stats you provided, those are appreciated and interesting, but I don't think it's surprising to anyone. Nor do I think regular season scoring is necessarily the main reason players such as Anderson or Nieuwendyk are in the Hall.)

 

[GlitchMarner]

I don't know if people here over-rate the threshold -- I think it's more so a case of many of us wanting a stricter threshold than the one established by the Hall of Fame committee. Just because so-and-so was a mistake in the past doesn't mean we should repeat the mistake in the future.

The reality of such institutions as 'Hall of Fames' is this: The dividing-line between the "ins" and the "outs" is entirely arbitrary. But one concrete fact that isn't arbitrary is: the more people you put in, the lower the honor of being in becomes.

So, putting it crudely, it comes down to a question like the following -- do you want more to reward really good players or do you want more to make the Hall a more rarefied and venerable institution?


(As to the VsX stats you provided, those are appreciated and interesting, but I don't think it's surprising to anyone. Nor do I think regular season scoring is necessarily the main reason players such as Anderson or Nieuwendyk are in the Hall.)

Yeah, I get where you're coming from, but I think the HOF has a certain template and mentality that it continues to deploy despite the fact that people may want the committee to evaluate differently and/or "raise the standards." At some point you just have to grasp the reality and go with it.

I also agree with Anderson and Nieuwendyk - and I personally don't even mind the fact they're in (same with Gartner merely because of his goal scoring; his overall production isn't mind-blowing for a HOF'er). I think if you have the regular season offense to rival some of the members in there and you have accompanying accomplishments, you should (and likely will) get a look.

I mean, there are numerous players with better RS offense than Gillies. He made it in because of the Cups (and to be fair, he did contribute to the playoff success of the NYI dynasty). But you can expect a Toews or a Kopitar to possibly (likely) be rewarded for Cups while having better offense than some members (some on here seem to think Toews' offense is way off the HOF mark - the "inflated stats" of the live puck era seem to obscure the actual level of productivity of certain live puck era guys).

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

simply put, 1 mistake doesn't justify repeating that same mistake again.

"sorry honey, but since I've already cheated once, all subsequent cheating is ok"

 

[GlitchMarner]

simply put, 1 mistake doesn't justify repeating that same mistake again.

"sorry honey, but since I've already cheated once, all subsequent cheating is ok"

I'm not sure the actual induction committee thinks it's made mistakes. It has its way of doing things and ultimately makes the calls.

 

[tony d]

Thanks for posting this. I think pts. are looked at for HOF induction but it's not the only thing that determines a player's Hall of Fame credentials.

 

[GreatGonzo]

For HOFers, it ranges from how “saucy” the storyline is, how great of a talent they are, and how great their resume is: statistically, awards, playoff success, etc. And other types of reasoning they come up with. The standards vary on the player.

I agree we do tend to reward good players rather than rare ones, all while inducting players out of a sense of desperation. I mean Clark Gillies got inducted for multiple reasons, now of course....all of them aren’t really worthy reasons, but for the times, it seemed appropriate. It’s almost like Ringo of the Beatles. Awesome drummer, but the joke was that he was the luckiest drummer in the world. Not exactly a generational musician or even persona, just Ringo....but he was inducted because his entire band were there. Gillies had Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier. Like I said, not agreeing with it, but that’s the way it went.

Then their are compilers and then players that, IMO, happened to be at the right place at the right time. In the end, the “credentials” will continue to range.

 

[GlitchMarner]

For HOFers, it ranges from how “saucy” the storyline is, how great of a talent they are, and how great their resume is: statistically, awards, playoff success, etc. And other types of reasoning they come up with. The standards vary on the player.

I agree we do tend to reward good players rather than rare ones, all while inducting players out of a sense of desperation. I mean Clark Gillies got inducted for multiple reasons, now of course....all of them aren’t really worthy reasons, but for the times, it seemed appropriate. It’s almost like Ringo of the Beatles. Awesome drummer, but the joke was that he was the luckiest drummer in the world. Not exactly a generational musician or even persona, just Ringo....but he was inducted because his entire band were there. Gillies had Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier. Like I said, not agreeing with it, but that’s the way it went.

Then their are compilers and then players that, IMO, happened to be at the right place at the right time. In the end, the “credentials” will continue to range.

Of the players I listed, which ones would meet your criteria? Just Sundin and Modano? I'd have them in and I think they're good benchmarks for legit HOF'ers. Would you include McDonald ideally? Any others?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Of the players I listed, which ones would meet your criteria? Just Sundin and Modano? I'd have them in and I think they're good benchmarks for legit HOF'ers. Would you include McDonald ideally? Any others?

Personally? Modano and Sundin are HOFers without any doubt. First of all, they were both extremely talented players and both played at a very high level for a good chunk of their careers. Other than both being All Stars in a very deep center pool, Sundin had amazing consistency, while Modano had an impressive prime as a top two way center. Both were among the top players during their primes, which was mainly in the DPE. Modano had playoff success while Sundin had international. Modano became the best American goal scorer among being one of the greatest American born talents, while Sundin is arguably the best Swede forward/player to ever play. To add, statistically they are easily HOFers. Both demonstrated elite production through out their careers, and like I said, mainly in a very low scoring era.

Mullen as an American and goal scorer was the right move. He may not appear to be the strongest, but he had playoff success with great numbers and finished his career the top American born goal scorer.

McDonald is interesting. I do feel he was borderline with his cup winning last game did push him over the edge. He was a great goal scorer though, and at the time of his retirement, he sat 22nd in points and 14th in goals, hitting the 500 goal/1000 point marker. He also finished 5th in goals and points among RWers. He was well liked and respected, in the end he deserved to be inducted, but I can see why people would question it. Maybe not Firts ballot, but still.

Gartner put up 700 goals and was a very consistent goal scorer. He may have not been a top level player, but he was consistent. Not my personal fav but it’s hard to keep him out. His stats definitely were the main reason.

I wouldn’t have inducted Nieuwendyke or Gillies regardless of how “pretty” their resume look. Although Anderson was a playoff warrior, I probably wouldn’t have either, but he would have a better argument. Dino I wouldn’t have at all.

 

[Hot Water Bottle]

I don't deny that he kind of sticks out in the HOF, but I think Clark Gillies has actually become underrated because of discussions like this. Let's not forget he was a superb player and a classic power-forward like Cam Neely or Wendel Clark. Don Cherry could have created him in a lab.

 

[The Panther]

There should never be some kind of universal statistical formula that decides who's in and who's out. The narratives of players' careers, their impact on teammates/fans, the uniqueness of their situation (e.g., Mullen as first American to do various things) are all important and worthy considerations. Statistical peaks will never tell the story of players like Modano and Sundin, whom, I agree, are obvious Hall of Famers, despite less than impressive finishes in, say, top-ten scoring. (Another consideration is being the top guy on the same team for a long time.)

I don't mind that the standards of importance wax and wane a bit as the generations pass -- that's probably inevitable. I just want the standards to be a little higher.

 

[GlitchMarner]

There should never be some kind of universal statistical formula that decides who's in and who's out. The narratives of players' careers, their impact on teammates/fans, the uniqueness of their situation (e.g., Mullen as first American to do various things) are all important and worthy considerations. Statistical peaks will never tell the story of players like Modano and Sundin, whom, I agree, are obvious Hall of Famers, despite less than impressive finishes in, say, top-ten scoring. (Another consideration is being the top guy on the same team for a long time.)

Agreed.

But wouldn't you agree that guys like Corey Perry (who has some hardware and a few top ten goal scoring finishes) and Kopitar (similar to Modano, I think, but with less longevity right now obviously) should be considered real candidates despite their raw totals from seasons to season perhaps not looking as impressive as those of guys like Anderson, Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk (for example)? All things considered, Perry's offense in his best seasons is at least in the ball park of the offense of your Lannys and Dinos in their best seasons.

I think I'd take Perry in his prime over Ciccarelli. I'd definitely take him at his peak over Dino.

I think Anze should get in if he ages well enough. His stats may not look that great next to those of some live puck era players, but there are recent inductees that he's superior to both offensively and defensively (and he's had playoff success and is a hockey pioneer for his country).

If a guy like Taylor Hall can put together some more big seasons, he should have a shot. There's obviously more to inductions than offense and offensive statistics, but I don't think people should be dismissive of the idea of guys who aren't necessarily major stars having a shot considering guys like Ciccarelli, Mullen and Anderson weren't really huge stars, either.

Then again, Gretzky/Lemieux kind of hogged the hardware back in the day. Nowadays you get situations where a Perry or Hall wins a Hart or a Benn wins a Ross.

 

[seventieslord]

Agreed.

But wouldn't you agree that guys like Corey Perry (who has some hardware and a few top ten goal scoring finishes) and Kopitar (similar to Modano, I think, but with less longevity right now obviously) should be considered real candidates despite their raw totals from seasons to season perhaps not looking as impressive as those of guys like Anderson, Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk (for example)? All things considered, Perry's offense in his best seasons is at least in the ball park of the offense of your Lannys and Dinos in their best seasons.

I think I'd take Perry in his prime over Ciccarelli. I'd definitely take him at his peak over Dino.

I think Anze should get in if he ages well enough. His stats may not look that great next to those of some live puck era players, but there are recent inductees that he's superior to both offensively and defensively (and he's had playoff success and is a hockey pioneer for his country).

If a guy like Taylor Hall can put together some more big seasons, he should have a shot. There's obviously more to inductions than offense and offensive statistics, but I don't think people should be dismissive of the idea of guys who aren't necessarily major stars having a shot considering guys like Ciccarelli, Mullen and Anderson weren't really huge stars, either.

Then again, Gretzky/Lemieux kind of hogged the hardware back in the day. Nowadays you get situations where a Perry or Hall wins a Hart or a Benn wins a Ross.

I look at it as the opposite. If you can adjust numbers to era and show that a guy like Dave andreychuk was really no more dominant in the grand scheme of things than a player like Corey Perry, all it does is further the argument that Andreychuk has no business being in the Hall of Fame, not the Perry should join him there.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Agreed.

But wouldn't you agree that guys like Corey Perry (who has some hardware and a few top ten goal scoring finishes) and Kopitar (similar to Modano, I think, but with less longevity right now obviously) should be considered real candidates despite their raw totals from seasons to season perhaps not looking as impressive as those of guys like Anderson, Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk (for example)? All things considered, Perry's offense in his best seasons is at least in the ball park of the offense of your Lannys and Dinos in their best seasons.

I think I'd take Perry in his prime over Ciccarelli. I'd definitely take him at his peak over Dino.

I think Anze should get in if he ages well enough. His stats may not look that great next to those of some live puck era players, but there are recent inductees that he's superior to both offensively and defensively (and he's had playoff success and is a hockey pioneer for his country).

If a guy like Taylor Hall can put together some more big seasons, he should have a shot. There's obviously more to inductions than offense and offensive statistics, but I don't think people should be dismissive of the idea of guys who aren't necessarily major stars having a shot considering guys like Ciccarelli, Mullen and Anderson weren't really huge stars, either.

Perry’s biggest downfall will be is sudden and rather quick fall from grace. I wouldn’t induct mainly because outside of 2 awesome seasons, he was good to decent. He has the cup, international success, Hart, but I feel on paper that appears prestigious until you go further into context. I mean, yes at his best he is better than Dino, but that shouldn’t be a compliment. Like @The Panther was saying, we should still maintain some high standard and not compare future maybes to “weak” inductions to justify it. That’s a habit we really need to stop.

Kopitar is another one. Very Modano like, especially with his nationality. He has established himself as a top two way player of his time while having great playoff success. If he can continue to be consistent, maybe put together a few more big seasons, he’s no doubt in my mind. Right now if he retired today I wouldn’t induct him. At the end of his career? Yes. Maybe I’m alone on that opinion, but that’s just how I see it.

People are willing to induct anyone who has an amazing season regardless of context. I’m sure many see Price as a for sure HOFer based on his one season alone. Or if a player wins a cup or two, he’s immediately in the discussion. In my opinion it should be about your career overall: your play, impact, accolades, numbers, among other factors that may be unique, rare, or just overall beneficial.

I think the term “Star” gets both romanticized and undervalued.....I mean what is a star? It’s very subjective, but being a top player should be taken into consideration. I would say Mullen was more of a star than the other two, and the other two do get flack for not being high level players.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I look at it as the opposite. If you can adjust numbers to era and show that a guy like Dave andreychuk was really no more dominant in the grand scheme of things than a player like Corey Perry, all it does is further the argument that Andreychuk has no business being in the Hall of Fame, not the Perry should join him there.

Isn't one of the knocks against Andreychuk that he didn't really win/accomplish anything individually, though? Perry has a Hart and Rocket. Do you think inductions should be geared more toward high peaks or overall careers?

 

[Michael Farkas]

No, the knock on Andreychuk is that he wasn't that good of a player compared to his raw totals (that got him in).