A More Realistic Look At The HOF...

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by GlitchMarner, Oct 9, 2018.

View Users: View Users
  1. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    I've provided the best adjusted point totals (in seasons of at least 75 games played) as well as top 50 scoring placements and VsX 7 and VsX 10 scores of certain Hall of Famers. It seems to me people on here generally overrate the threshold. If actual inductees are used as a precedent, there are multiple legitimate candidates among active players. I would say anyone with a VsX 7 score higher than McDonald's deserves a look and anyone with a VsX 7 scorer higher than Modano's and/or Sundin's is a good candidate...

    Learn more about VsX 7 and VsX 10 here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/reference-vsx-comprehensive-summary-1927-to-2017.2215905/

    All but six of the NHL's top 63 scorers all-time who are retired and eligible are in the HOF:

    NHL Leaders

    RankPlayerYearsPTS
    1.Wayne Gretzky*1979-992857
    2.Jaromir Jagr1990-181921
    3.Mark Messier*1979-041887
    4.Gordie Howe*1946-801850
    5.Ron Francis*1981-041798
    6.Marcel Dionne*1971-891771
    7.Steve Yzerman*1983-061755
    8.Mario Lemieux*1984-061723
    9.Joe Sakic*1988-091641
    10.Phil Esposito*1963-811590
    11.Ray Bourque*1979-011579
    12.Mark Recchi*1988-111533
    13.Paul Coffey*1980-011531
    14.Stan Mikita*1958-801467
    15.Teemu Selanne*1992-141457
    16.Joe Thornton1997-191428
    17.Bryan Trottier*1975-941425
    18.Adam Oates*1985-041420
    19.Doug Gilmour*1983-031414
    20.Dale Hawerchuk*1981-971409
    21.Jari Kurri*1980-981398
    22.Luc Robitaille*1986-061394
    23.Brett Hull*1986-061391
    24.Mike Modano*1989-111374
    25.John Bucyk*1955-781369
    26.Brendan Shanahan*1987-091354
    27.Guy Lafleur*1971-911353
    28.Mats Sundin*1990-091349
    29.Denis Savard*1980-971338
    Dave Andreychuk*1982-061338
    31.Mike Gartner*1979-981335
    32.Pierre Turgeon1987-071327
    33.Gilbert Perreault*1970-871326
    34.Jarome Iginla1996-171300
    35.Alex Delvecchio*1950-741281
    36.Al MacInnis*1981-041274
    37.Jean Ratelle*1960-811267
    38.Peter Stastny*1980-951239
    39.Phil Housley*1982-031232
    40.Norm Ullman*1955-751229
    41.Jean Beliveau*1950-711219
    42.Larry Murphy*1980-011217
    43.Jeremy Roenick1988-091216
    44.Bobby Clarke*1969-841210
    45.Bernie Nicholls1981-991209
    46.Vincent Damphousse1986-041205
    47.Dino Ciccarelli*1980-991200
    48.Rod Brind'Amour1989-101184
    49.Sergei Fedorov*1990-091179
    50.Bobby Hull*1957-801170
    51.Daniel Alfredsson1995-141157
    52.Michel Goulet*1979-941153
    53.Nicklas Lidstrom*1991-121142
    54.Marian Hossa1997-171134
    55.Patrick Marleau1997-191133
    56.Bernie Federko*1976-901130
    57.Joe Nieuwendyk*1986-071126
    Mike Bossy*1977-871126
    59.Alex Ovechkin2005-191125
    60.Darryl Sittler*1970-851121
    61.Sidney Crosby2005-191118
    62.Frank Mahovlich*1956-741103
    63.Glenn Anderson*1980-961099
    64.Theoren Fleury1988-031088
    65.Henrik Sedin2000-181070
    66.Dave Taylor1977-941069
    67.Keith Tkachuk1991-101065
    68.Ray Whitney1991-141064
    69.Joe Mullen*1981-971063
    70.Pat Verbeek1982-021062
    71.Denis Potvin*1973-881052
    72.Henri Richard*1955-751046
    73.Daniel Sedin2000-181041
    74.Bobby Smith1978-931036
    75.Martin St. Louis*1998-151033
    Doug Weight1991-111033
    77.Alexander Mogilny1989-061032
    78.Alex Kovalev1992-131029
    79.Brian Leetch*1987-061028
    80.Patrik Elias1995-161025
    81.Brian Bellows1982-991022
    82.Rod Gilbert*1960-781021
    83.Dale Hunter1980-991020
    84.Pat LaFontaine*1983-981013
    85.Steve Larmer1980-951012
    86.Lanny McDonald*1973-891006
    87.Brian Propp1979-941004
    88.Paul Kariya*1994-10989
    89.Rick Middleton1974-88988
    90.Dave Keon*1960-82986
    91.Andy Bathgate*1952-71973
    92.Shane Doan1995-17972
    93.Maurice Richard*1942-60966
    94.Henrik Zetterberg2002-18960
    95.Kirk Muller1984-03959
    96.Larry Robinson*1972-92958
    97.Rick Tocchet1984-02952
    98.Vincent Lecavalier1998-16949
    99.Chris Chelios*1983-10948
    100.Jason Arnott1993-12938



    Mats Sundin:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: One (4th)
    Top ten: Two (4th, 7th)
    top 15: Six (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th)
    Top 20: Eight (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th)
    Top 30: 12 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th)
    Top 40: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)
    Top 50: 16 (4th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 31st, 35th, 38th, 40th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    97
    95
    92
    91
    87
    85
    81
    80
    80
    77
    77
    67
    53

    Under 75 games played:

    1995: 81 adjusted points (shortened season: 47 GP)
    2000: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
    2006: 76 adjusted points in 70 GP
    2007: 77 adjusted points in 75 GP
    2008: 84 adjusted points in 74 GP
    2009: 28 adjusted points in 41 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1995: 82 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
    2006: 89 adjusted point pace
    2007: 84 adjusted point pace
    2008: 93 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 82.1

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Ryan Getzlaf: 83.7
    (Active, three top ten scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist, Cup)
    Ilya Kovalchuk: 83.9
    (Active, Rocket Richard, five top ten scoring finishes, AS-1, AS-2)
    Nicklas Backstrom: 87.7
    (Active, four top ten scoring finishes, Cup)
    Claude Giroux: 88.0
    (Active, three top five scoring finishes, AS-2, Hart finalist)
    Steven Stamkos: 88.4
    (Active, two Rocket Richards, two-time AS-2, Hart finalist, four top five scoring finishes)
    Patrick Kane: 89.2
    (Active, three-time AS-1, Calder, Conn Smythe, Hart, Art Ross, three Cups, five top 10 scoring finishes)


    VsX 10: 79.9



    Mike Modano:

    [​IMG]


    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: Two (8th, 9th)
    top 15: Five (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th)
    Top 20: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
    Top 30: Seven (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th)
    Top 40: 11 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th)
    Top 50: 13 (8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, 41st, 46th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    95
    92
    91
    89
    88
    86
    84
    78
    75
    75
    68
    62
    61
    57
    50
    47

    Under 75 games played:

    1995: 50 adjusted points (shortened season - 30 GP)
    1998: 68 adjusted points in 52 GP
    2007: 44 adjusted points in 59 GP
    2010: 32 adjusted points in 59 GP
    2011: 16 adjusted points in 40 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1995: 80 adjusted point pace in 48 GP (shortened season)
    1998: 107 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 81.5

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Henrik Sedin: 84.5
    John Tavares: 82.4
    (Active, two top three Hart voting finishes)
    Marian Hossa: 82.4
    Daniel Alfredsson: 82.3
    Phil Kessel: 82.0
    (Active, four top ten scoring finishes, two Cups)
    Theoren Fleury: 82.0
    John LeClair: 81.7

    VsX 10: 77.7


    Lanny McDonald:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: Two (8th, 10th)
    top 15: Five (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th)
    Top 20: Five
    Top 30: Six (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th)
    Top 40: Eight (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 28th, 33rd, 39th)
    Top 50: Eight

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    81
    81
    79
    72
    63
    63
    56

    Under 75 games played:

    1974: 28 adjusted points in 70 GP
    1975: 38 adjusted points in 64 GP
    1978: 78 adjusted points in 74 GP
    1982: 60 adjusted points in 71 GP
    1984: 52 adjusted points in 65 GP
    1985: 29 adjusted points in 43 GP
    1987: 22 adjusted points in 58 GP
    1988: 19 adjusted points in 60 GP
    1989: 15 adjusted points in 51 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1978: 88 adjusted point pace
    1982: 69 adjusted point pace
    1984: 66 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 74.1

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Pavol Demitra 74.5
    Corey Perry 75.0
    (Active, Hart, Rocket Richard, 2X AS-1, Cup)
    Alex Kovalev 75.3
    Joe Pavelski 75.8
    Vincent Lecavalier 76.9
    Alexei Yashin 77.1
    Alexander Mogilny 77.7
    Brad Richards 78.0
    Blake Wheeler 78.3
    Doug Weight 78.3
    Tyler Seguin 78.7
    Patrik Elias 78.9
    Keith Tkachuk 79.0
    Jason Spezza 79.1
    Anze Kopitar 79.2
    (Active, two Selkes, two Cups)
    Henrik Zetterberg 79.5
    (Recently retired, Conn Smythe, AS-2, Cup)
    Daniel Sedin 79.9
    (Recently retired, AS-1, AS-2, Pearson, Art Ross)
    Ziggy Palffy 80.1
    Eric Staal 80.2
    Bernie Nicholls 80.6
    Dany Heatley 81.0
    Jeremy Roenick 81.2
    Jamie Benn 81.4
    (Active, Art Ross, AS-1, AS-1, AS-2)

    VsX 10: 68.0

    Glenn Anderson:

    [​IMG]
    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (9th)
    Top 15: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
    Top 20: Four (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th)
    Top 30: Five (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd)
    Top 40: Six (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd)
    Top 50: Seven (9th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 33rd, 41st)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    78
    77
    74
    64
    61
    53
    52
    37

    Under 75 games played:

    1981: 41 adjusted points in 58 GP
    1983: 83 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1986: 80 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1990: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1991: 48 adjusted points in 74 GP
    1992: 50 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1995: 45 adjusted points (shortened season - 36 GP)
    1996: 14 adjusted points in 32 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1983: 95 adjusted point pace
    1986: 91 adjusted point pace
    1990: 69 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 72.0

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Rod Brind'Amour 72.6
    Jonathan Toews 72.7
    (Active, AS-2, Selke, Smythe, three Cups)
    Ray Whitney 72.9
    Jakub Voracek 72.9
    Tony Amonte 73.0
    Rick Martin 73.1
    Milan Hejduk 73.1
    Patrick Marleau 73.2
    Rick MacLeish 73.3
    Marc Savard 73.3
    Alex Tanguay 73.4
    Vincent Damphousse 74.0
    Mike Ribeiro 74.1
    Rick Middleton 74.1

    VsX 10: 65.7

    Joe Mullen:

    [​IMG]
    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (7th)
    top 15: Two (7th, 14th)
    Top 20: Four (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th)
    Top 30: Seven (7th, 14th, 19th, 19th, 23rd, 26th, 29th)
    Top 40: Seven
    Top 50: Seven

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    91
    77
    74
    73
    70
    70
    67
    64
    58

    Under 75 games played:

    1982: 43 adjusted points in 45 GP
    1983: 38 adjusted points in 49 GP
    1991: 34 adjusted points in 47 GP
    1993: 57 adjusted points in 72 GP
    1995: 64 adjusted points (shortened season - 45 GP)
    1996: 23 adjusted points in 54 GP
    1997: 15 adjusted points in 37 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1982: 78 adjusted point pace
    1993: 65 adjusted point pace
    1995: 68 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 71.6

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Peter Bondra 72.0
    Steve Larmer 71.9
    Taylor Hall 71.8
    (Active, Hart trophy, three top ten scoring finishes)

    VsX 10: 66.6

    Joe Nieuwendyk:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: None
    top 15: One (15th)
    Top 20: Three (15th, 16th, 17th)
    Top 30: Five (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd)
    Top 40: Six (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st)
    Top 50: Seven (15th, 16th, 17th, 22nd, 22nd, 31st, 47th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    80
    77
    75
    67
    65
    61
    50

    Under 75 games played:

    1987: 5 adjusted points in 9 GP
    1992: 50 adjusted points in 69 GP
    1994: 68 adjusted points in 64 GP
    1995: 86 adjusted points (shortened season - 46 GP)
    1996: 30 adjusted points in 52 GP
    1997: 53 adjusted points in 66 GP
    1998: 79 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1999: 63 adjusted points in 67 GP
    2000: 37 adjusted points in 48 GP
    2001: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
    2004: 58 adjusted points in 64 GP
    2006: 55 adjusted points in 65 GP
    2007: 8 adjusted points in 15 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1994: 87 adjusted point pace
    1995: 90 adjusted point pace
    1997: 66 adjusted point pace
    1998: 89 adjusted point pace
    1999: 77 adjusted point pace
    2001: 68 adjusted point pace
    2004: 74 adjusted point pace
    2006: 69 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 70.3

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:
    Zach Parise 70.9
    Rene Robert 71.0
    Dennis Maruk 71.3
    Kent Nilsson 71.3

    VsX 10: 66.3

    Dino Ciccarelli:

    [​IMG]

    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: Two (6th, 9th)
    Top 15: Two (6th, 9th)
    Top 20: Three (6th, 9th, 20th)
    Top 30: Six (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th)
    Top 40: Eight (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th)
    Top 50: Ten (6th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 30th, 39th, 39th, 44th, 49th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    87
    78
    77
    69
    67
    66
    62
    61
    60
    56

    Under 75 games played:

    1981: 23 adjusted points in 32 GP
    1985: 25 adjusted points in 51 GP
    1988: 72 adjusted points in 67 GP
    1991: 35 adjusted points in 54 GP
    1994: 51 adjusted points in 66 GP
    1995: 75 adjusted points (shortened season - 42 GP)
    1996: 41 adjusted points in 64 GP
    1998: 39 adjusted points in 62 GP
    1999: 8 adjusted points in 14 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1988: 88 adjusted point pace
    1995: 86 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 69.8

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Marian Gaborik: 69.9
    Dave Taylor: 70.2

    VsX 10: 66.9



    Mike Gartner:

    [​IMG]

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    81
    73
    72
    72
    67
    67
    65
    62
    62
    58
    57
    57
    55
    52

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (10th)
    Top 15: One (10th)
    Top 20: Two (10th, 17th)
    Top 30: Five (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th)
    Top 40: Eight (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th)
    Top 50: 13 (10th, 17th, 26th, 28th, 30th, 31st, 38th, 40th, 42nd, 42nd, 45th, 45th, 50th)

    Under 75 games played:

    1983: 61 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1986: 58 adjusted points in 74 GP
    1989: 57 adjusted points in 69 GP
    1995: 35 adjusted points (shortened season - 38 GP)
    1998: 31 adjusted points in 60 GP

    Seasons with 40-74 games played at a pace of 65 adjusted points or more:

    1983: 69 adjusted point pace
    1989: 68 adjusted point pace

    VsX 7: 68.8

    Non Hall of Famers with better VsX 7 scores:

    Bobby Smith: 68.9
    Rick Nash: 69.2

    VsX 10: 66.0


    Clark Gillies:

    [​IMG]


    Scoring placements:

    Top five: None
    Top ten: One (10th)
    Top 15: Two (10th, 13th)
    Top 20: Two (10th, 13th)
    Top 30: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
    Top 40: Three (10th, 13th, 30th)
    Top 50: Four (10th, 13th, 30th, 47th)

    Best adjusted point totals (in seasons with 75 or more games played):

    76
    76
    60
    56
    53
    40
    22

    Under 75 games played:

    1977: 49 adjusted points in 70 GP
    1980: 46 adjusted points in 73 GP
    1983: 33 adjusted points in 70 GP
    1985: 25 adjusted points in 54 games played
    1986: 11 adjusted points in 55 games played
    1987: 22 adjusted points in 61 games
    1988: 6 adjusted points in 25 games played

    VsX 7: Not available

    VsX 10: Not available
     
    67Leafs67 and blogofmike like this.
  2. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    7,915
    Likes Received:
    1,726
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    I don't know if people here over-rate the threshold -- I think it's more so a case of many of us wanting a stricter threshold than the one established by the Hall of Fame committee. Just because so-and-so was a mistake in the past doesn't mean we should repeat the mistake in the future.

    The reality of such institutions as 'Hall of Fames' is this: The dividing-line between the "ins" and the "outs" is entirely arbitrary. But one concrete fact that isn't arbitrary is: the more people you put in, the lower the honor of being in becomes.

    So, putting it crudely, it comes down to a question like the following -- do you want more to reward really good players or do you want more to make the Hall a more rarefied and venerable institution?


    (As to the VsX stats you provided, those are appreciated and interesting, but I don't think it's surprising to anyone. Nor do I think regular season scoring is necessarily the main reason players such as Anderson or Nieuwendyk are in the Hall.)
     
    mrhockey193195 and GreatGonzo like this.
  3. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Yeah, I get where you're coming from, but I think the HOF has a certain template and mentality that it continues to deploy despite the fact that people may want the committee to evaluate differently and/or "raise the standards." At some point you just have to grasp the reality and go with it.

    I also agree with Anderson and Nieuwendyk - and I personally don't even mind the fact they're in (same with Gartner merely because of his goal scoring; his overall production isn't mind-blowing for a HOF'er). I think if you have the regular season offense to rival some of the members in there and you have accompanying accomplishments, you should (and likely will) get a look.

    I mean, there are numerous players with better RS offense than Gillies. He made it in because of the Cups (and to be fair, he did contribute to the playoff success of the NYI dynasty). But you can expect a Toews or a Kopitar to possibly (likely) be rewarded for Cups while having better offense than some members (some on here seem to think Toews' offense is way off the HOF mark - the "inflated stats" of the live puck era seem to obscure the actual level of productivity of certain live puck era guys).
     
  4. BigBadBruins7708

    BigBadBruins7708 Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    2,467
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    East Providence, RI
    simply put, 1 mistake doesn't justify repeating that same mistake again.

    "sorry honey, but since I've already cheated once, all subsequent cheating is ok"
     
  5. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    I'm not sure the actual induction committee thinks it's made mistakes. It has its way of doing things and ultimately makes the calls.
     
  6. tony d

    tony d Registered User Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Messages:
    67,900
    Likes Received:
    1,605
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Office Worker
    Location:
    Behind A Tree
    Thanks for posting this. I think pts. are looked at for HOF induction but it's not the only thing that determines a player's Hall of Fame credentials.
     
    GlitchMarner likes this.
  7. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,213
    Likes Received:
    871
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Location:
    South Of the Tank
    For HOFers, it ranges from how “saucy” the storyline is, how great of a talent they are, and how great their resume is: statistically, awards, playoff success, etc. And other types of reasoning they come up with. The standards vary on the player.

    I agree we do tend to reward good players rather than rare ones, all while inducting players out of a sense of desperation. I mean Clark Gillies got inducted for multiple reasons, now of course....all of them aren’t really worthy reasons, but for the times, it seemed appropriate. It’s almost like Ringo of the Beatles. Awesome drummer, but the joke was that he was the luckiest drummer in the world. Not exactly a generational musician or even persona, just Ringo....but he was inducted because his entire band were there. Gillies had Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier. Like I said, not agreeing with it, but that’s the way it went.

    Then their are compilers and then players that, IMO, happened to be at the right place at the right time. In the end, the “credentials” will continue to range.
     
  8. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Of the players I listed, which ones would meet your criteria? Just Sundin and Modano? I'd have them in and I think they're good benchmarks for legit HOF'ers. Would you include McDonald ideally? Any others?
     
  9. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,213
    Likes Received:
    871
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Location:
    South Of the Tank
    Personally? Modano and Sundin are HOFers without any doubt. First of all, they were both extremely talented players and both played at a very high level for a good chunk of their careers. Other than both being All Stars in a very deep center pool, Sundin had amazing consistency, while Modano had an impressive prime as a top two way center. Both were among the top players during their primes, which was mainly in the DPE. Modano had playoff success while Sundin had international. Modano became the best American goal scorer among being one of the greatest American born talents, while Sundin is arguably the best Swede forward/player to ever play. To add, statistically they are easily HOFers. Both demonstrated elite production through out their careers, and like I said, mainly in a very low scoring era.

    Mullen as an American and goal scorer was the right move. He may not appear to be the strongest, but he had playoff success with great numbers and finished his career the top American born goal scorer.

    McDonald is interesting. I do feel he was borderline with his cup winning last game did push him over the edge. He was a great goal scorer though, and at the time of his retirement, he sat 22nd in points and 14th in goals, hitting the 500 goal/1000 point marker. He also finished 5th in goals and points among RWers. He was well liked and respected, in the end he deserved to be inducted, but I can see why people would question it. Maybe not Firts ballot, but still.

    Gartner put up 700 goals and was a very consistent goal scorer. He may have not been a top level player, but he was consistent. Not my personal fav but it’s hard to keep him out. His stats definitely were the main reason.

    I wouldn’t have inducted Nieuwendyke or Gillies regardless of how “pretty” their resume look. Although Anderson was a playoff warrior, I probably wouldn’t have either, but he would have a better argument. Dino I wouldn’t have at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
    GlitchMarner likes this.
  10. Francis Vernal

    Francis Vernal Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,515
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    56
    I don't deny that he kind of sticks out in the HOF, but I think Clark Gillies has actually become underrated because of discussions like this. Let's not forget he was a superb player and a classic power-forward like Cam Neely or Wendel Clark. Don Cherry could have created him in a lab.
     
  11. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    7,915
    Likes Received:
    1,726
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    There should never be some kind of universal statistical formula that decides who's in and who's out. The narratives of players' careers, their impact on teammates/fans, the uniqueness of their situation (e.g., Mullen as first American to do various things) are all important and worthy considerations. Statistical peaks will never tell the story of players like Modano and Sundin, whom, I agree, are obvious Hall of Famers, despite less than impressive finishes in, say, top-ten scoring. (Another consideration is being the top guy on the same team for a long time.)

    I don't mind that the standards of importance wax and wane a bit as the generations pass -- that's probably inevitable. I just want the standards to be a little higher.
     
  12. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Agreed.

    But wouldn't you agree that guys like Corey Perry (who has some hardware and a few top ten goal scoring finishes) and Kopitar (similar to Modano, I think, but with less longevity right now obviously) should be considered real candidates despite their raw totals from seasons to season perhaps not looking as impressive as those of guys like Anderson, Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk (for example)? All things considered, Perry's offense in his best seasons is at least in the ball park of the offense of your Lannys and Dinos in their best seasons.

    I think I'd take Perry in his prime over Ciccarelli. I'd definitely take him at his peak over Dino.

    I think Anze should get in if he ages well enough. His stats may not look that great next to those of some live puck era players, but there are recent inductees that he's superior to both offensively and defensively (and he's had playoff success and is a hockey pioneer for his country).

    If a guy like Taylor Hall can put together some more big seasons, he should have a shot. There's obviously more to inductions than offense and offensive statistics, but I don't think people should be dismissive of the idea of guys who aren't necessarily major stars having a shot considering guys like Ciccarelli, Mullen and Anderson weren't really huge stars, either.

    Then again, Gretzky/Lemieux kind of hogged the hardware back in the day. Nowadays you get situations where a Perry or Hall wins a Hart or a Benn wins a Ross.
     
  13. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    31,901
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Regina, SK
    I look at it as the opposite. If you can adjust numbers to era and show that a guy like Dave andreychuk was really no more dominant in the grand scheme of things than a player like Corey Perry, all it does is further the argument that Andreychuk has no business being in the Hall of Fame, not the Perry should join him there.
     
  14. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,213
    Likes Received:
    871
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Location:
    South Of the Tank
    Perry’s biggest downfall will be is sudden and rather quick fall from grace. I wouldn’t induct mainly because outside of 2 awesome seasons, he was good to decent. He has the cup, international success, Hart, but I feel on paper that appears prestigious until you go further into context. I mean, yes at his best he is better than Dino, but that shouldn’t be a compliment. Like @The Panther was saying, we should still maintain some high standard and not compare future maybes to “weak” inductions to justify it. That’s a habit we really need to stop.

    Kopitar is another one. Very Modano like, especially with his nationality. He has established himself as a top two way player of his time while having great playoff success. If he can continue to be consistent, maybe put together a few more big seasons, he’s no doubt in my mind. Right now if he retired today I wouldn’t induct him. At the end of his career? Yes. Maybe I’m alone on that opinion, but that’s just how I see it.

    People are willing to induct anyone who has an amazing season regardless of context. I’m sure many see Price as a for sure HOFer based on his one season alone. Or if a player wins a cup or two, he’s immediately in the discussion. In my opinion it should be about your career overall: your play, impact, accolades, numbers, among other factors that may be unique, rare, or just overall beneficial.

    I think the term “Star” gets both romanticized and undervalued.....I mean what is a star? It’s very subjective, but being a top player should be taken into consideration. I would say Mullen was more of a star than the other two, and the other two do get flack for not being high level players.
     
  15. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Isn't one of the knocks against Andreychuk that he didn't really win/accomplish anything individually, though? Perry has a Hart and Rocket. Do you think inductions should be geared more toward high peaks or overall careers?
     
  16. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    9,019
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    PA
    No, the knock on Andreychuk is that he wasn't that good of a player compared to his raw totals (that got him in).
     
    seventieslord likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"