A Full 2006 Re-Draft

[Canucks1096]

That series also had 80s level goaltending where Fleury and Bryz couldnt stop a beachball your point? The fact that one good series in round 1 has that big of an effect on his playoff pt totals and your he is near ppg argument is pretty telling about how awful that series was and how much Claude benefitted from it. 7 pts in 13 games when he actually played a team that had average goaltending

Giroux's playoff PPG drops to .84 without 2012

Toews has a .85 PPG in the playoffs

Toews only had 3 good playoffs out of 9 playoffs. 2010 2014 and 2015. 2011 2012 and 2016 and 2017 when the Hawks need it to get rid of players for salary cap purposes like Buff, Ladd, Versteeg, Campbell, Richards, Sharp, Vermette, Oduya. Toews struggle in the playoffs.

Yes it proven that Toews can play at a high level if he has a stacked team but it is also proven that Toews struggle in the playoffs if he doesn't have a stacked team like in 2011 2012 2016 2017.

But the debate is should Toews been drafted 1st overall. But the problem with that is if he got drafted 1st overall with Blues. He won't be able to play in so many playoffs games and his career would of been completely different.

The last 3 years I think Toews proved that he is nothing special without the Stacked team. He is only a 58 point that is a solid defensively. Without Hossa on his wing he is no longer in the running for the Selke as well.

I watched hockey for 26 years. Toews might be the most overrated player the last 26 years. Maybe in nhl history but I don't want to be so extreme because I never watched hockey from day 1 since the nhl started because I wasn't born yet.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Toews only had 3 good playoffs out of 9 playoffs. 2010 2014 and 2015. 2011 2012 and 2016 and 2017 when the Hawks need it to get rid of players for salary cap purposes like Buff, Ladd, Versteeg, Campbell, Richards, Sharp, Vermette, Oduya. Toews struggle in the playoffs.
yet he had 2 good post seasons after the 13 and 15 roster purges?


Yes it proven that Toews can play at a high level if he has a stacked team but it is also proven that Toews struggle in the playoffs if he doesn't have a stacked team like in

2011 4 in 7 somewhat of a fair argument except the GTG in game 7 was amazing
2012 4 in 6 reaching a bit saying he struggled that series. He was concussed that year
2016 6pts in 7 games lol if that is struggling then a lot of players struggle every post season series.

2017. 2 in 4 entire team was awful and not fast enough for Nashville

But the debate is should Toews been drafted 1st overall. But the problem with that is if he got drafted 1st overall with Blues. He won't be able to play in so many playoffs games and his career would of been completely different. If the Blues dont draft Johnson they possibly make the playoffs a lot sooner than they historically have and its pointless trying to predict how a team does without a certain player as a single draft can create a butterfly effect everywhere. Especially from one that happened over 10 years ago.

The last 3 years I think Toews proved that he is nothing special without the Stacked team. He is only a 58 point Wrong on that check the numbers from 16-now that is a solid defensively. Without Hossa on his wing he is no longer in the running for the Selke as well. 4th and 5th in selke voting in 16 and 17 with Hossa not his primary linemate in both years.

I watched hockey for 26 years. Age doesnt equate to knowledge when your post history have made it very clear you have overwhelmingly strong biases against Chicago regardless of what the discussion is about. Toews might be the most overrated player the last 26 years.

Maybe in nhl history but I don't want to be so extreme because I never watched hockey from day 1 since the nhl started because I wasn't born yet. unimportant non fact based oppinions here^

 

[Canucks1096]

That series also had 80s level goaltending where Fleury and Bryz couldnt stop a beachball your point? The fact that one good series in round 1 has that big of an effect on his playoff pt totals and your he is near ppg argument is pretty telling about how awful that series was and how much Claude benefitted from it. 7 pts in 13 games when he actually played a team that had average goaltending

Giroux's playoff PPG drops to .84 without 2012

Toews has a .85 PPG in the playoffs

On this Forum a lot of people do like to cherry pick but you cherry pick at a different level. So you decided to take a playoff series a way from Giroux to make the argument look good for you. Lol. I don't think I ever seen someone do that before. If you are taking a series a way from Giroux. We should do that for Toews as well. 2010 Hawks vs Canucks, Canucks defence was banged up and during that series Luongo was playing like a 80 goalies and Toews had 12 points. So if we take that series away, Toews ppg drops to 0.80.

Also in the finals in 2010 both goalies were horrible. So Toews didn't take advantage of this and put up big Points. For players that did take advantage we should penalize them for that.

 

[ColbyChaos]

On this Forum a lot of people do like to cherry pick but you cherry pick at a different level. So you decided to take a playoff series a way from Giroux to make the argument look good for you.

Only to point how a single series massively inflated his PPG in the playoffs which is deceptive when that series was an aberation with 56 goals being scored in 6 games for an average of 9.3 goals per game in that series. It was worth mentioning how that one series inflated Giroux's stats and that series was anything but the norm.

Lol. I don't think I ever seen someone do that before. If you are taking a series a way from Giroux. We should do that for Toews as well. 2010 Hawks vs Canucks, Canucks defence was banged up and during that series Luongo was playing like a 80 goalies and Toews had 12 points. So if we take that series away, Toews ppg drops to 0.80. That series didnt average 9+ goals a game while the Pens Flyers series was only a few goals away from matching a league record. Giroux goes from a .96 PPG to a .76 PPG while per your numbers Toews only drops .04....

Also in the finals in 2010 both goalies were horrible. So Toews didn't take advantage of this and put up big Points. For players that did take advantage we should penalize them for that.Both teams were likely dealing with nagging injuries after making the finals if your argument as to why the Vancouver series shouldnt count

 

[Canucks1096]

Yes because Hawks got there depth back in 2013 to 2015 with Shaw Saad Leddy Oduya Richards Vermette. When some of those players Left Toews struggle again.

2011. Not even one 5 on 5 points the whole entire series. Kesler completely shut down Toews 5 on 5. Sorry it's not somewhat Toews struggle. You can't cherry pick and just look at the game tying goal.

2012 4 points in 6 games. No matter how slice and dice it when your star number 1 center gets 4 points in 6 games. That is not good

2016 there is a fat 0 on his stats. When you have 0 goals. I think it's fair to say he struggle.

2017 your blaming the team for Toews performance. So I guess we should give credit for the team when Hawks win a cup and not Toews. Sounds like a double standard there.

So those series when Hawks have no depth. 24 GP 4 G 12 A 16 P. That is lot lower than his production when the team is stacked. So I think it fair to say Toews struggle without the supporting casts.

Regardless if I am bias or not all my posts about Toews I back it up.

I don't understand your joke about 58 points. He did have 58 points in 2016 and 58 in 2017.

2016 you are wrong. Hossa and shaw was his two Primary linemates. I give you 2017 but yes he was 5th in voting but most of the votes went to Bergeron and Kesler. The phrase your in the running it can be subjective but when you pretty much have no chance of winning you are not in the running


Please stop making excuses and cherry picking

 

[Canucks1096]

If you dont think there anything wrong with your argument then I really don't want to say

 

[Canucks1096]

Let's just make it nice and simple

Is Toews a completely different player without playing with elite wingers and when he is not on a stacked team?

Yes or No? If the answer is No please provide some evidences on how Toews is the same player

 

[ColbyChaos]

Yes because Hawks got there depth back in 2013 to 2015 with Shaw Saad Leddy Oduya Richards Vermette. When some of those players Left Toews struggle again.

2011. Not even one 5 on 5 points the whole entire series. Kesler Kessler had 1 5 on 5 point guess he was shutdown too also given the Hawks lost a number of talent completely shut down Toews 5 on 5. Sorry it's not somewhat Toews struggle. You can't cherry pick Like you just did shifting it to 5 on 5 when you saw he had 4 pts? and just look at the game tying goal. You just changed it to 5 0n 5 in order to write off that series as him playing bad (glossing over a short handed goal)

2012 4 points in 6 games. No matter how slice and dice it when your star number 1 center gets 4 points in 6 games. That is not good Not everyone scores at a ppg rate in the playoffs every single series they play in. 4 in 6 isnt as bad as you make it Toews also had lingering effects from a concussion along with Hossa being taken out by Torres

2016 there is a fat 0 on his stats. When you have 0 goals. I think it's fair to say he struggle Except he still was getting on the scoreboard (and 5 on 5 which you decided mattered out of no where) despite Elliott playing like 2010 Halak points are points and contribute to helping your team win

2017 your blaming the team for Toews performance. So I guess we should give credit for the team when Hawks win a cup and not Toews. Sounds like a double standard there. Kane only got 2 points as well that year. The entire team was bad not just Toews.

So those series when Hawks have no depth. 24 GP 4 G 12 A 16 P. That is lot lower than his production when the team is stacked. So I think it fair to say Toews struggle without the supporting casts.

And Giroux's production is a lot lower when he isnt facing the 2012 Penguins when looking at the last 3 playoff rounds he was in higlighted by 1 pt in 6 games in 2016 so I guess he struggles without supporting casts as well as that too is a lot lower than his production in earlier series he played in with Richards, Jagr, Pronger, Timonen, Gange, Briere and Carter while they were all teammates.

Regardless if I am bias or not all my posts about Toews I back it up.

I don't understand your joke about 58 points. He did have 58 points in 2016 and 58 in 2017 (He missed time both seasons with a door injury messing up his shoulder early into the 2015-16 season)

2016 you are wrong. Hossa and shaw was his two Primary linemates. I give you 2017 but yes he was 5th in voting but most of the votes went to Bergeron and Kesler The phrase your in the running it can be subjective but when you pretty much have no chance of winning you are not in the running

Hossa was moved to the 3rd line with Kruger for numerous stretches of 2016 the Toews line was a complete carousel as he was paired with Tikhonov,Teuvo, Panarin, Sekac, Ladd, Shaw, Bickell, Garbutt, Baun, Dano, Panik, Hinostroza, and other rotating players throughout stretches that entire season he didnt spend every single game with Hossa as his linemate.

Please stop making excuses and cherry picking

You could PM me if you want to keep nit picking rather than carry this on here

Let's just make it nice and simple

Is Toews a completely different player without playing with elite wingers and when he is not on a stacked team? Injuries and missing a sizeable chunk of time in their prime does not affect players I guess

Yes or No? If the answer is No please provide some evidences on how Toews is the same player 2011 in your own words he didnt have a stacked team and put up 77pts in 80 gp and 2012 when he also didnt have a stacked team and scored at a .96 rate during which in your own words werent stacked squads.

Claude Giroux had to shift from center to wing to get his carear back on track. His numbers also dipped the moment voracek had less than stellar seasons as well so the needs good linemates argument applies to Giroux as well (as much as you dont want it to)

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

(Nitpicks out an entire series to make a point)

Gets a nitpick served right back in order to show that it's disingenuous to only nitpick when it suits your argument.

You could PM me if you want to keep nit picking rather than carry this on here

Complains about nit picking as if that's all on the other guy.

 

[Canucks1096]

You could PM me if you want to keep nit picking rather than carry this on here



Claude Giroux had to shift from center to wing to get his carear back on track. His numbers also dipped the moment voracek had less than stellar seasons as well so the needs good linemates argument applies to Giroux as well (as much as you dont want it to)

Kesler actually had two 5 on 5 points. Regardless how many points Kesler got. Toews still had 0 points 5 on 5. You can't just look at that shorthanded goal and just ignore the first 6 games and 58 mins of that series. When a number 1 center gets 4 P in 7 games. That means he didn't do his job offensively. Doesn't matter how you slice it.

Thanks for helping with my argument. I am not sure if we need to continue because you just prove that I am right when I said Toews needs a stacked team/great linemates to produce. The excuses that you are making for Toews is Hossa was out, the whole team played bad, Hawks lost number of talent. You are indirectly agreeing with me. Do we still need to debate because you think I am right.



If you check on this site. Toews most regular linemates were Hossa and Shaw.


Jonathan Toews - Full Stats, Line Combos and Game Logs

Don't use the injury card on Toews. Toews been pretty healthy for most of his career.

Without the elite linemates 55 to 60 points RS. With the elite linemates it his ppg is about 70 to 75 points per 82 game seasons. Playoffs without the Stacked team 4 G 12 A 16 P in 24 games 11 12 16 17. Playoffs with the Stacked team 94 points in 104 games

These stats proves that Toews is no where near the same player without the elite linemates and stacked team. Stays don't lie.

You are right about Toews 2011 and 2012 season but he still had elite linemates. But Toews is nothing special ok the playoffs without the Stacked team

Giroux two best seasons were 2012 and 2014. 2012 he mainly played with Hartnell and a 40 year old Jagr and 2014 he played with Vorecek but 2014 Voracek didn' have his breakout season yet. Vorecek had breakout season in 2015. When Voracek broke out in 2015, Giroux dropped 13 points. So what you said is not true at all.

About Giroux 1 point in 6 games in 2016. That is only one series. In 2010 Giroux got 21 P in 23 games on the 3rd line. He didn't play with legit top 6 guys and still got almost ppg. I think we can agree that Giroux has no where close to the linemates and supporting casts Toews has and Giroux has a better ppg than Toews.

Removing a series from Giroux is a ridiculous argument. Crosby had a lot of easy 1sr rounds. Should we remove a series for him as well?

Anyway we continue on if you want. Not sure what the point is because you indirectly agree with me that Toews does need the stacked lineup/linemates to produce

 

[ColbyChaos]

Richards and Briere drew the harder matchups in 2010 while Toews was playing top competition that playoff season you are comparing a 1st line C who lead the league in playoff scoring to a 3rd liner who recieved favorable matchups without being shadowed by top Dmen and defensive forwards.. No one was sending Chara, Keith, and other top Dmen against Giroux in 2010 he gets a lot less points otherwise as he was not even a strong possession player

The fact that Giroux playoff PPG is largely tied to a single series that saw a post lockout record 56 goals scored is pretty telling. Giroux had better linemates than Toews did in 2016 and got 1 point and also only scored 3pts when the devils series started after Pit (funny how the moment he went up against an actual goalie his scoring rate dropped dramatically) He is not the elite playoff preformer you are making him out to be. His high playoffs ppg rate is soley due to he having a good year as a 3rd liner in 2010 (while avoiding all quality competition) and playing in a series that proped up his stats that he could have a single power play assist in 6 straight games and still not have that put a major damp on his ppg ratio. heading into that 2012 NJ series his carear PPG was 1.13 he has been .58 since then with his career being below 1.0 now. That PPG has already taken a significant drop since that Pit series and it will fall even lower after this post season is over.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Wait, people are trying to go after Toews? Dude has 3 Cups, 2 gold medals, Conn Smythe and a Selke. The dude is clutch and wins. End of story.

 

[Tripod]

Giroux's playoff #s are inflated by a single series while Toews werent. Take out those 14 points he scored on a terrible Pit team that had no idea what goaltending and defense was and Giroux's PPG drops massively.

Still the better playoff preformer though despite his 1 point in 2016 amirite?

Ahh 2016. The playoffs in which Giroux had hip surgery right afterwards and took almost a year to recover from? Nah he, that would have nothing to do with it.

Again, Toews was able to be the 13th leading scorer ON HIS TEAM in a series, and Chicago still won the series. No other top player gets that support.

 

[BruinsBtn]

The question is: Is this a redraft of who you take starting today? Or who you take if you had a time machine to go back to 2006?

 

[BinCookin]

The question is: Is this a redraft of who you take starting today? Or who you take if you had a time machine to go back to 2006?

well if you go back to 2006, than the redraft would just be the original draft...

Its basically using hindsight.. who would you take in what order.
But moreso i wanted to know if i have anyonee 10-12 positions out of whack. I moved Mueller to 30 to account for him.

 

[Canucks1096]

Richards and Briere drew the harder matchups in 2010 while Toews was playing top competition that playoff season you are comparing a 1st line C who lead the league in playoff scoring to a 3rd liner who recieved favorable matchups without being shadowed by top Dmen and defensive forwards.. No one was sending Chara, Keith, and other top Dmen against Giroux in 2010 he gets a lot less points otherwise as he was not even a strong possession player

The fact that Giroux playoff PPG is largely tied to a single series that saw a post lockout record 56 goals scored is pretty telling. Giroux had better linemates than Toews did in 2016 and got 1 point and also only scored 3pts when the devils series started after Pit (funny how the moment he went up against an actual goalie his scoring rate dropped dramatically) He is not the elite playoff preformer you are making him out to be. His high playoffs ppg rate is soley due to he having a good year as a 3rd liner in 2010 (while avoiding all quality competition) and playing in a series that proped up his stats that he could have a single power play assist in 6 straight games and still not have that put a major damp on his ppg ratio. heading into that 2012 NJ series his carear PPG was 1.13 he has been .58 since then with his career being below 1.0 now. That PPG has already taken a significant drop since that Pit series and it will fall even lower after this post season is over.

I need to correct you again. Briere was the leading playoffs scorer that year and not Toews. I probably corrected you about 4 to 5x already. Would it be possible to do some research before you post? True Giroux did play 3rd line mins and didn't play against top competition but there is a trade off.

Player 1, Giroux was a 3rd line player with less mins, but linemates are worst as well. He played JVR and Asham. A 3rd line rookie and a player that should be on the 4th line.

Vs

Player 2, Toews 1st line that played with better linemates Kane. More ice time but played against top competition

So can you provide me with some of data or examples that if you are player 1 it's easier to score? If you can't that means it's just your personal opinion, personal opinion should not be used as examples. Seem like it's fair trade off. Putting almost ppg with a 3rd and 4th line player is impressive.

My argument about Toews needing elite linemates/stacked team to produce. I gave you solid evidences on his numbers are so different with elite line mates/stacked vs when he doesn't have that option. I want you to do the same as well. I proved my point about Toews already and you indirectly agree with me on one of your post. But as of now you still didn't prove that Giroux is not the same player that I think he is.

Okay sure Toews got better linemates than Giroux in 16/17 But I don't think you should play linemate card if you ask anybody on this forum. Almost everyone will agree majority of Toews career had better linemates/better team. Since Giroux became 1st liner. He had more points than Toews 5x and ties in point 3 times. Giroux 2 best season was 2012 and 2014 with 40 yar old Jagr and Hartnell . 2014 with Vorecek which btw didn't break out yet. All second line guys but none are first line during that time. Giroux is proven he doesn't need elite 1st line to produce.

The argument that you are using on Giroux 2012 playoffs is a unfair. You giving all the blame to Pits goaltending and defence and not giving the Flyers any credit at all. For the record pits GAA in the regular season was 12th best. Flyers were able to score 30 goals on Pits. You need to give some credit to the Giroux and the Flyers there able find ways to score that many goals. Right now you are penalizing Flyers for finding ways to score so many goals.

3rd highest playoff ppg. Giroux is actually 3rd leading RS scorers since 2011. Was first from 2011 to 2015. When you are at the top for both RS and playoffs scoring you can't be a coincidence.

 

[Ivo]

What a sweet draft this was for the Bruins - Kessel, Lucic, Marchand.

 

[snowkiddin]

IMO, in a vacuum Toews goes #1 in a redraft.

Debating the what ifs that would happen if he was in STL is pointless because we will never know what would have happened. STL had a talented roster too, who knows, maybe Toews puts them over the top? We won’t know.

So knowing that we don’t know what would happen with Toews in STL, I would personally go: Toews, Giroux, Backstrom, Kessel in that order.

 

[Canucks1096]

IMO, in a vacuum Toews goes #1 in a redraft.

Debating the what ifs that would happen if he was in STL is pointless because we will never know what would have happened. STL had a talented roster too, who knows, maybe Toews puts them over the top? We won’t know.

So knowing that we don’t know what would happen with Toews in STL, I would personally go: Toews, Giroux, Backstrom, Kessel in that order.

True but usually the center with more offence gets drafted ahead of a two way center.

 

[snowkiddin]

True but usually the center with more offence gets drafted ahead of a two way center.

Yeah, can’t really go wrong with any of the top 3 honestly

 

[Iceman]

Wait, people are trying to go after Toews? Dude has 3 Cups, 2 gold medals, Conn Smythe and a Selke. The dude is clutch and wins. End of story.

So Toews wins 3 cups on any team that drafts him?

The Toews fable is absolutely hilarious sometimes.

 

[24 others]

why not go by prime years as the best measure, players who add meh seasons early on but are much better now are being penalized.

i think marchand would be the best player tbh, hes a force in all 3 zones.

All 4, if you include the penalty box

 

[WTFMAN99]

So Toews wins 3 cups on any team that drafts him?

The Toews fable is absolutely hilarious sometimes.

So the assumption is he wins zero cups for reasons?

 

[Iceman]

So the assumption is he wins zero cups for reasons?

I don’t see how that is taken into account in a redraft. It is 100% based on the players you play with. Creating offense you can do by yourself to varying degrees.