Post-Game Talk: #9| Kings at FLYERS |Tue., Oct. 28, 2014|

[Striiker]

Bellemare absolutely deserves to be higher than 4th line, especially since he can play LW, C, or RW. I don't care if that means Lecavelier is dropped to the 4th.

 

[Curufinwe]

Just have Bellemare take some DZ starts with Schenn and Simmonds as well as centering the 4th line. That will keep his minutes around 14.

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

Bellemare absolutely deserves to be higher than 4th line, especially since he can play LW, C, or RW. I don't care if that means Lecavelier is dropped to the 4th.

Lecavalier and Umberger both should be on the 4th line. Actually should be off the team, but that is another topic that has been discussed extensively

 

[blinds]

Lecavalier and Umberger both should be on the 4th line. Actually should be off the team, but that is another topic that has been discussed extensively

Oh c'mon, Vinny's looked fine the games he's played this season and the games he's played last season before his back injury. He was much quicker and more aggressive to start this season and put up 3 points in 3 games. He definitely still has a place on the team.

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

Oh c'mon, Vinny's looked fine the games he's played this season and the games he's played last season before his back injury. He was much quicker and more aggressive to start this season and put up 3 points in 3 games. He definitely still has a place on the team.

Yea he was good in the offensive end of the ice, but he was still atrocious defensively. He is still a detriment to the team. And once again he can't even stay on the ice.

 

[blinds]

Yea he was good in the offensive end of the ice, but he was still atrocious defensively. He is still a detriment to the team. And once again he can't even stay on the ice.

He really wasn't as bad, he was clearly making more of an effort. He made the one gaffe where he screened Mason and another where I think he and another forward double covered a guy, but the effort is clearly there. Giroux has been making just as many poor defensive plays this year.

I mean, it's pretty clear he's been making an effort to improve. If you've read any of his quotes, he's talked about how he worked on his conditioning this summer by doing things like changing his diet for the first time since he came into the league. In Meltzer's blog, he talked about how he's been studying videos of his own shifts to improve. It's been pointed out endlessly the ridiculous changes he had to go through last year in switching to a new team after 12 years, new coach, new position, new system, new teammates, and coming back early from a serious back injury.

And you're blaming him for being injured? He took a puck to the foot, how many other people have we seen injured on the same play?

The dude used to be a superstar, let's at least give him the benefit of the doubt and let him play more than 3 games this season before we call him a "detriment to the team". If for nothing else, he's a great power play specialist and leader. God knows we don't have anyone else with a good shot, just a bunch of guys that can pick up garbage in front.

 

[Striiker]

Oh c'mon, Vinny's looked fine the games he's played this season and the games he's played last season before his back injury. He was much quicker and more aggressive to start this season and put up 3 points in 3 games. He definitely still has a place on the team.

No he really doesn't. He was bad, I know you don't want to admit it but it's the truth.

 

[flyershockey]

Vinny really doesn't have a spot on this roster when everyone is healthy. Giroux/Couturier/Bellemare is very good down the middle, and more importantly, they're responsible defensively. We don't need his offense at the sacrifice of solid defensive play.

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

He really wasn't as bad, he was clearly making more of an effort. He made the one gaffe where he screened Mason and another where I think he and another forward double covered a guy, but the effort is clearly there. Giroux has been making just as many poor defensive plays this year.

I mean, it's pretty clear he's been making an effort to improve. If you've read any of his quotes, he's talked about how he worked on his conditioning this summer by doing things like changing his diet for the first time since he came into the league. In Meltzer's blog, he talked about how he's been studying videos of his own shifts to improve. It's been pointed out endlessly the ridiculous changes he had to go through last year in switching to a new team after 12 years, new coach, new position, new system, new teammates, and coming back early from a serious back injury.

And you're blaming him for being injured? He took a puck to the foot, how many other people have we seen injured on the same play?

The dude used to be a superstar, let's at least give him the benefit of the doubt and let him play more than 3 games this season before we call him a "detriment to the team". If for nothing else, he's a great power play specialist and leader. God knows we don't have anyone else with a good shot, just a bunch of guys that can pick up garbage in front.

That's great that he is trying harder, but that doesn't mean he is any good. The fact of the matter is he is a power play specialist who really isn't even good enough to be on our first unit. And I don't really care that he used to be a super star, he is not good not and is on a terrible contract. He is at best the 5th or 6th best center on this team. I would rather have Giroux, couturier, bellemare, Laughton, Schenn and even Raffl at center before him. At least all of those guys aren't horrible defensively. He has no spot on this team. If another team offers anything that doesn't require taking a worse contract Holmgren should take it and run.

 

[Embiid]

Yeah Hextall deemed/deems Vinny such a valuable asset that he had a FOR SALE sign in the offseason and probably still has it up the size of a highway billboard.....

 

[blinds]

That's great that he is trying harder, but that doesn't mean he is any good. The fact of the matter is he is a power play specialist who really isn't even good enough to be on our first unit. And I don't really care that he used to be a super star, he is not good not and is on a terrible contract. He is at best the 5th or 6th best center on this team. I would rather have Giroux, couturier, bellemare, Laughton, Schenn and even Raffl at center before him. At least all of those guys aren't horrible defensively. He has no spot on this team. If another team offers anything that doesn't require taking a worse contract Holmgren should take it and run.

Yeah, 2 powerplay points in 3 games is so bad. You all see what you expect to see. If you actually watched him on the powerplay, he was doing a good job of creating space in the slot and giving Giroux another option. Schenn hasn't been able to do that, he's basically been a useless body until someone puts a shot on net. Vinny was also pretty good at getting to rebounds and either putting them on net or cycling it back out to G/Voracek/Streit. He's a big body who's good at screening the net when the puck is out by Streit or Voracek (that's actually how he got injured, while he was screening).

In reality, he was perfectly good the games he played this season. The same way he was before he got injured last season. He put up 3 points, or just as many as any other forward in that time span. It's ridiculous how little leeway the guy gets, he experienced more change in one season than he has in his entire career and still put up 20 goals while playing injured. You guys preach patience with your favorites, but can't give Vinny a shot after one season where he played injured after being moved off the only team he's ever played on.

He's not going to be great defensively, but he fills a niche that we don't have anyone else that can. He can score off the rush which about zero of our other forwards can do reliably, he's about the only guy on our powerplay, either unit, that can shoot other than Streit. He's got good hands in tight that makes him good in the slot. He's not as slow or timid as he was last year after coming back from his injury. If our coach had any creativity he could find a use for Vinny.

Oh and he's actually good at shootouts, and he's the only forward other than Giroux that you can say that for.

I'm not happy we have him either and I don't like having to defend him, but you all make it sound like he's useless while he certainly still has his uses. He could still be good for 50+ points. I mean ****, we're stuck with him, why not use him in ways he can actually be effective? He brings a lot of things this team is lacking like size up front, a great shot and great hands. His lack of speed and defensive ability are certainly there, but they're over exaggerated around here and his back injury played into both of those deficits as well.

 

[Curufinwe]

Vinny's not good at shootouts. He's about 24% in his career. Giroux is at 43%

 

[Striiker]

Yeah, 2 powerplay points in 3 games is so bad. You all see what you expect to see. If you actually watched him on the powerplay, he was doing a good job of creating space in the slot and giving Giroux another option. Schenn hasn't been able to do that, he's basically been a useless body until someone puts a shot on net. Vinny was also pretty good at getting to rebounds and either putting them on net or cycling it back out to G/Voracek/Streit. He's a big body who's good at screening the net when the puck is out by Streit or Voracek (that's actually how he got injured, while he was screening).

In reality, he was perfectly good the games he played this season. The same way he was before he got injured last season. He put up 3 points, or just as many as any other forward in that time span. It's ridiculous how little leeway the guy gets, he experienced more change in one season than he has in his entire career and still put up 20 goals while playing injured. You guys preach patience with your favorites, but can't give Vinny a shot after one season where he played injured after being moved off the only team he's ever played on.

He's not going to be great defensively, but he fills a niche that we don't have anyone else that can. He can score off the rush which about zero of our other forwards can do reliably, he's about the only guy on our powerplay, either unit, that can shoot other than Streit. He's got good hands in tight that makes him good in the slot. He's not as slow or timid as he was last year after coming back from his injury. If our coach had any creativity he could find a use for Vinny.

Oh and he's actually good at shootouts, and he's the only forward other than Giroux that you can say that for.

I'm not happy we have him either and I don't like having to defend him, but you all make it sound like he's useless while he certainly still has his uses. He could still be good for 50+ points. I mean ****, we're stuck with him, why not use him in ways he can actually be effective? He brings a lot of things this team is lacking like size up front, a great shot and great hands. His lack of speed and defensive ability are certainly there, but they're over exaggerated around here and his back injury played into both of those deficits as well.

You're not able to see him for what he actually is because you like him so much, there's a reason you're the only one defending him.

Lecavelier is just as bad as he was last season and he's not getting any better. He may have a good shot but he's so incredibly slow that he's hardly even in a position to use it. He's not good along the boards, he's bad in the neutral zone, and he's atrocious in the defensive zone. He's a waste of cap and roster space and he belongs on the 4th line because there are 9 players better than him. The only guy that's debatable is Umberger and he's usually invisiable, which is better than being visible for bad reasons like VL usually is. The Schenn-Simmonds line has been far better since Bellemare took Lecaveliers spot, he's not good enough offensively to be on the 1st line, and he's nowhere near good enough defensively to be on Couturiers line.

Also, about your shootouts point, I'm pretty sure he's scored once in the shootout since coming here, which I believe was his first attempt, and he hasn't looked good since then. I might be off here but if I am then it's not by much, maybe he's scored twice.

 

[Curufinwe]

I think he's 2/10 here.

 

[blinds]

Vinny's not good at shootouts. He's about 24% in his career. Giroux is at 43%

Comparing him to Giroux isn't exactly fair. I said he's better than anyone else we have. I mean, who else do we even have? Voracek and Simmonds can't do shootouts. Raffl has 1 shootout goal in his career afaik and that was pretty fluky. Read used to be good but hasn't scored in one in awhile and every attempt he's had has been the same exact thing. I don't think Schenn has been tried, but if his breakaway against the Kings is any indication, he's not good either.

We really don't have anyone with good enough hands to be good in the shootout. You'd think Voracek could find some success, but apparently not. Everyone else just shoots it at the goalie and fails. Vinny at least actually has some moves that succeed 1/4th of the time apparently.

I'd like to try Bellemare or Akeson, but Berube is just going to keep sending Read and Couts out to fail. At least Vinny actually got a couple through.

Btw, no one else has scored more than once in the shootout since Vinny's been here besides Giroux and Vinny.

 

[Stizzle]

It's amazing to me that even one person can't see just how detrimental and useless Vincent Lecavalier is to this team. He's not even defendable on the PP.

 

[Striiker]

Even IF he was reliable in shootouts, which he's not, that's still not even close to enough to make up for how much of a detriment he is to this team for the entire game and OT before the shootout.

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

If we are keeping someone on the roster because they have a good shot and are a power play specialist then that player should be the 12th or 13th forward if it is even worth it to keep someone for that reason. The fact of the matter is if a player can't be useful 5 on 5 in this league they aren't worth keeping. And Vinny is not useful 5 on 5. He is ok offensively but not good enough to make up for how bad he is in the defensive end and neutral zone. If he was a useful player Hextall would have been able to trade him in the offseason and in reality we wouldn't have been talking about trading him all offseason.

 

[blinds]

You're not able to see him for what he actually is because you like him so much, there's a reason you're the only one defending him.

I don't like him. I'm defending him because you all **** on him so much it's ridiculous. It's like the hate the Schenns and Grossmann get, it's irrational more than it isn't. People have their favorite whipping boys. They may be one-dimensional, but their flaws get over exaggerated and their strengths get obfuscated by the constant circle jerk around here.

Of course they're all bad, but they have their uses. I'm just defending Vinny because no one else is and there's a lot of ******** that gets spewed. If I had my choice, he, Grossmann and Rinaldo would be off this team immediately. That doesn't make them useless though (well, Rinaldo's just about useless).

Lecavelier is just as bad as he was last season and he's not getting any better. He may have a good shot but he's so incredibly slow that he's hardly even in a position to use it. He's not good along the boards, he's bad in the neutral zone, and he's atrocious in the defensive zone. He's a waste of cap and roster space and he belongs on the 4th line because there are 9 players better than him. The only guy that's debatable is Umberger and he's usually invisiable, which is better than being visible for bad reasons like VL usually is. The Schenn-Simmonds line has been far better since Bellemare took Lecaveliers spot, he's not good enough offensively to be on the 1st line, and he's nowhere near good enough defensively to be on Couturiers line.

You're wrong. It's that simple. He is better than he was last season. You didn't watch him the 3 games he played if you don't think so. As small a sample size as it is, he's PPG. Relative to last year, he's faster and better on the boards. You can't describe him as "incredibly slow", especially when you have someone like Grossmann on the team. He clearly worked on his conditioning, and he was able to keep up with the play in his 3 games this season.

He's clearly making more of an effort in the defensive zone, and it shows. On the goal where he screened Mason, at least he was actually covering his man closely.

All you're doing is parroting some talking points from last season. If you actually watched him, you'd see he hasn't been much worse defensively than any of our other forwards not named Giroux, Voracek and Couturier. Every one of them has been making defensive mistakes, you just remember the ones Vinny is making because it fits your narrative.

I'm really sick of defending Vinny, it's just amazing to me that you can't acknowledge that he's improved in most of the facets that he was criticized for last year. I'm not saying he's good in those areas now, but he's not the incredible detriment he was last season. His conditioning and work ethic clearly helped him improve slightly. He's not amazing, he's not even average, but he's not an absolute liability every time he steps on the ice like he was after December of last season.

Can't you acknowledge that it's possible for him to improve in some of these areas? He clearly has.

 

[blinds]

Here's some quotes from a quick search through one of the GDT's:

Vinny is all over the place. Like it.

Vinny with lots of jump again

Vinny looks good, but it is game 2...

vinny does look good. Encouraging.

Vinny looks so much better than he did last year post injury.

But I'm sure you'll keep telling me how he hasn't looked any better this year whatsoever. He's clearly looked better (this is a relative term, I'm not calling him good defensively) in all three zones this year. He's looked better in the dot. He's been more aggressive on the boards. He hasn't been trailing the play by a mile the entire game, he's kept up. He put up 3 points in 3 games.

It's clearly helped him having an offseason to focus on recovering from his injury and working on his conditioning.

I'm not saying he's good, guys. I'm just saying he's not as god awful as he was last year.

Of course, he'll probably come back and play awfully just to prove me wrong. But can we wait until he actually starts playing terribly to say he's as bad as last season? He's had 3 games so far, and he hasn't looked that bad. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Striiker]

I don't like him. I'm defending him because you all **** on him so much it's ridiculous. It's like the hate the Schenns and Grossmann get, it's irrational more than it isn't. People have their favorite whipping boys but these are still NHL players. They may be one-dimensional, but their flaws get over exaggerated and their strengths get obfuscated by the constant circle jerk around here.

Of course they're all bad, but they have their uses. I'm just defending Vinny because no one else is and there's a lot of ******** that gets spewed. If I had my choice, he and Grossmann would be off this team immediately. That doesn't make him useless though.



You're wrong. It's that simple. He is better than he was last season. You didn't watch him the 3 games he played if you don't think so. As small a sample size as it is, he's PPG. Relative to last year, he's faster and better on the boards. You can't describe him as "incredibly slow", especially when you have someone like Grossmann on the team. He clearly worked on his conditioning, and he was able to keep up with the play in his 3 games this season.

He's clearly making more of an effort in the defensive zone, and it shows. On the goal where he screened Mason, at least he was actually covering his man closely.

All you're doing is parroting some talking points from last season. If you actually watched him, you'd see he hasn't been much worse defensively than any of our other forwards not named Giroux, Voracek and Couturier. Every one of them has been making defensive mistakes, you just remember the ones Vinny is making because it fits your narrative.

I'm really sick of defending Vinny, it's just amazing to me that you can't acknowledge that he's improved in most of the facets that he was criticized for last year. I'm not saying he's good in those areas now, but he's not the incredible detriment he was last season. His conditioning and work ethic clearly helped him improve slightly. He's not amazing, he's not even average, but he's not an absolute liability every time he steps on the ice like he was after December of last season.

Can't you acknowledge that it's possible for him to improve in some of these areas? He clearly has.

You defend him more than anyone else on this entire site, and it's not a matter of sticking up for him when others just pile on, you make up excuses for him when the reason is simply that he's not good anymore. You're not standing up against an unfair hivemind against Lecavelier, you're wrong and he's bad but you can't/won't admit it.

If you want to nitpick and say he's better than last year then fine, that really says a lot about how bad he was last year if his level of play this year is an improvement. He's still been awful, and the team has been better off without him than with him. A morbidly obese person can improve their physical fitness so they can do a mile in 3 hours instead of 3.5 hours, but you're still not betting on them to win a race. You can say I'm "parroting some talking points from last season" but that's because they're still just as valid as they were then, whether you like it or not. Him looking slightly better for the first and second game this season doesn't mean he's good or useful, it means he's slightly less garbage than before.

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

Yes he looked better offensively but he was still terrible offensively. And in this league you have to be at least average at both ends of the ice to be useful. Unless you are going to be one of the top players offensively at your position. He is not a top 9 player on this team

 

[blinds]

It's amazing to me that even one person can't see just how detrimental and useless Vincent Lecavalier is to this team. He's not even defendable on the PP.

How is he not defendable on the powerplay? He was the only bright spot on the second unit last season, and he put up 2 points in 3 games this season.

Watch his points on the powerplay this season and please tell me what wasn't good. He was completely instrumental in getting both of those goals. His pass to Simmonds against the Devils with 1 second left was downright amazing. His other assist was him getting into perfect position where he was open and gave himself space to receive a pass and then taking a shot that led to a perfect rebound for Simmonds. He showed the kind of awareness that neither Hartnell or Schenn have shown in that spot to find open ice and make something of it.

How is that not defensible? He's a great powerplay player. This is that irrational hate I'm talking about. Absolutely no basis in how he actually plays. You just want to hate him so you make things up.

You defend him more than anyone else on this entire site, and it's not a matter of sticking up for him when others just pile on, you make up excuses for him when the reason is simply that he's not good anymore. You're not standing up against an unfair hivemind against Lecavelier, you're wrong and he's bad but you can't/won't admit it.

If you want to nitpick and say he's better than last year then fine, that really says a lot about how bad he was last year if his level of play this year is an improvement. He's still been awful, and the team has been better off without him than with him. A morbidly obese person can improve their physical fitness so they can do a mile in 3 hours instead of 3.5 hours, but you're still not betting on them to win a race. You can say I'm "parroting some talking points from last season" but that's because they're still just as valid as they were then, whether you like it or not. Him looking slightly better for the first and second game this season doesn't mean he's good or useful, it means he's slightly less garbage than before.

I'm not going to respond to the personal arguments.

But how is it nitpicking? That's been my whole point from the start. He had a lot of circumstances that contributed to a poor season last year. My point is that after having an offseason to address many of them, he's looked significantly better in almost all facets. He's faster, more aggressive, more committed to defense, better on faceoffs. The improvement isn't going to be huge and instantaneous, but those are the exact improvements we want out of him to make him a more useful player. It wasn't that long ago that he was a good player. I'm just saying we need to keep an open mind and hope he can continue to adjust and improve. There's too much certainty about how he's a terrible player and useless, when he's actually improved in the areas of the game people have criticized him for.

It was only 3 games, but he has looked better. Let's not just assume he's going to be the same player he was last year after rushing back from his back injury. People need to acknowledge that he has actually looked better, and if he can continue to improve he could provide some value to this club.

We need to get away from this foregone conclusion that he's terrible game in and game out. He can certainly contribute in positive ways and if he continues to minimize his deficits, he can actually be a plus for us.

But whatever, I'm done discussing this. Obviously I'm not convincing anyone. I still think Vinny can be useful and what we've seen this season has been promising towards that end, but I guess nobody else does.

 

[Curufinwe]

Adding Vinny and dropping VdV should be a positive.

 

[cheesesteak]

I thought Vinny looked ok-good in the games he played. His speed was definitely better then last season after he injured his back IMO. He doesn't really have a place on the Flyers long term tho. I don't wanna split up Schenn - Bellemare - Simmonds line for Vinny. I'd put him on the RW with Couturier and Read. If that doesn't work I dunno what to do with the guy.