Post-Game Talk: #61| FLYERS 2 at Penguins 4| Saturday, February 25, 2017

[Striiker]

However, the league is getting faster around him.

Think about the Flyers, look at all the slugs we've dumped, Vinnie, L Schenn, Grossman, etc. This has been going on around the league the last 5-10 years.

The crackdown on cheap penalties (holding, hooking, slashing, interference) has speeded up the game and allowed teams to shift to faster, less physical players. This makes the game tougher on someone like Giroux because you don't need to be 220 lbs to harass him, just get to him a stride faster and make him make faster decisions (and his linemates to react to those decisions).

This is why I think Cousins and Weal have limited futures, it's not that they're not that big, Konency isn't that big (though hopefully he'll fill out) but he's has the speed and quickness to compensate. Weal and Cousins are skilled, but just lack that second gear. I think Hextall recognizes this, his "small" players like Kase and Marody can skate.
Bigger forwards have to be decent skaters.

Rubtsov: "He is strong while skating with the puck, and his speed allows him to quickly return to the defensive zone. He's an above-average skater, with a good first step and an easy stride."

Leberge: "Laberge is a quick skater with good acceleration. He has as the ability to change to change speeds and can fool defenders and is very dangerous off the rush as a result."

Kase: "He's a quick, shifty skater who can lead a rush and is elusive in tight spaces."

Marody: "Speed is the number one asset Marody brings to the table. Marody is a blazing skater that can stretch the ice and put pressure on the opposing defense."

I will agree with that.

All I'm saying is that Giroux isn't slower than he used to be, that doesn't mean that I think he's able to skate like Konecny or that his speed is a strength. His skating was never a highlight of his game, it was his brains, vision, and hands that made him elite. Now I do agree that lots of teams are getting faster, but what I'm pointing out is that Giroux hasn't declined, it's just that he's stayed the same and many of the players against him are faster.

 

[Striiker]

To add to that, Deadhead, if you want to say that you doubt Giroux can find the same success again in the future because the league around him is getting faster then that's fine. I'm not so convinced but that's somewhere we can agree to disagree and just have to wait and see.

I'm only saying that people saying Giroux looks much slower than in the past (as in just his skating, not compared to others) are wrong. He looks the same speed wise.

 

[hatcher]

way slower.

 

[deadhead]

I will agree with that.

All I'm saying is that Giroux isn't slower than he used to be, that doesn't mean that I think he's able to skate like Konecny or that his speed is a strength. His skating was never a highlight of his game, it was his brains, vision, and hands that made him elite. Now I do agree that lots of teams are getting faster, but what I'm pointing out is that Giroux hasn't declined, it's just that he's stayed the same and many of the players against him are faster.

Either way, it explains why he remains effective on the PP relative to ES, as the game gets faster, there's less room and time at ES, and that's to his disadvantage because of his size. Adding fast offensive defensemen may help him, because they can carry the puck in and force the defense to react to them, and give him more space.

Even on the PP, I've noticed more teams are using an aggressive forecheck by the forwards, chasing the puck and not allowing the PP to set up - but you have to have fast forwards to do so. Down the road I can see Luby and Leier (or AK) in that role, but I can see why a coach would be reluctant to use a rookie, the more you chase instead of sitting in a box, the easier it is to be caught out of position and let the point man get by you and attack the net.

 

[deadhead]

One play that hasn't got a lot of attention is Voracek's goal. The defenseman played him to go behind the net and cycle around, his signature move, instead Voracek took it to the net and beat the goaltender across the crease.

This actually proved my point about Voracek skating too much, the fact that he was anticipated to cycle by the defense showed that their scouting suggested he wouldn't attack the net - being more aggressive will actually give him more room to operate because defensemen will be wary of trying to cut his cycle off if they know he'll attack the net.

Voracek is an example where bigger forwards can negate the movement to speed by using their strength, Simmonds does that but he really needs to work on his wrist shot to take advantage of the opportunities he creates with his power.

 

[Striiker]

Either way, it explains why he remains effective on the PP relative to ES, as the game gets faster, there's less room and time at ES, and that's to his disadvantage because of his size. Adding fast offensive defensemen may help him, because they can carry the puck in and force the defense to react to them, and give him more space.

Even on the PP, I've noticed more teams are using an aggressive forecheck by the forwards, chasing the puck and not allowing the PP to set up - but you have to have fast forwards to do so. Down the road I can see Luby and Leier (or AK) in that role, but I can see why a coach would be reluctant to use a rookie, the more you chase instead of sitting in a box, the easier it is to be caught out of position and let the point man get by you and attack the net.

I agree with that as well and especially what you said about the defensemen. I think the effect of having the better defensemen will make a huge difference, I've said that for a long time.

I still 100% believe that this is just a slump and I think next season will likely be closer to last seasons 5v5 production than this years. I can definitely live with that, especially as the team around him improves and we gain more offense from guys like Konecny, Provorov, Lindblom, Sanheim, etc.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

listening to Haks presser makes me want to punch my monitor..

everything he says basicly shows why this team is playing for ****.

his system sucks for the NHL level.

this guy simply needs to go in lue of a actual nhl HC with a results resume

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I agree that speed has never been Giroux's strength.

I disagree that Giroux's skating is no different than 3 years ago. Just watch highlights from three seasons ago. Giroux skated with the puck much more effectively, and his zone entry stats' steep decline the last 3 years are largely a result of the reduced effectiveness of his legs, IMO.

Though he was never fast, he used to move his feet with much more energy. He does a lot of coasting now, both offensively and defensively.

That the league is becoming faster only exacerbates the problem.

 

[Striiker]

I agree that speed has never been Giroux's strength.

I disagree that Giroux's skating is no different than 3 years ago. Just watch highlights from three seasons ago. Giroux skated with the puck much more effectively, and his zone entry stats' steep decline the last 3 years are largely a result of the reduced effectiveness of his legs, IMO.

Though he was never fast, he used to move his feet with much more energy. He does a lot of coasting now, both offensively and defensively.

That the league is becoming faster only exacerbates the problem.

I think the zone entries is due to the team around him and system instead of his skating. He's trying to play it safe by dumping the puck to avoid odd man rushes going the other way.

 

[deadhead]

I suspect it's a bit of both, players peak at 26 physically, Giroux is 29, so it's not unreasonable to think he's lost a half of stride, especially as a guy his size takes a beating over the years. And as the game gets faster, that becomes more noticeable.

Giroux's problem as he slows absolutely and relatively is his lack of size - a bigger center could use his body and strength to enter the zone without explosive speed, it's just easier to check a smaller center if you can hit him (which is why Konency can struggle along the boards where it's harder to duck a hit, watching him try to squeeze by a 210 lb D-man can be laughable).

You can't make G bigger or faster going forward, you can get him better forwards and defensemen like Provorov or Sanheim who can carry the puck in and force the defense (they present a bigger threat than Ghost due to size, you go to check them and if you take the wrong angle you might bounce off and get taken out of the play) to account for them.

Going forward, to get the most production out of Giroux, they'll have to limit his minutes (reduce wear and tear), and improve the talent around him (make it harder to match a checking line against him).

 

[Striiker]

I suspect it's a bit of both, players peak at 26 physically, Giroux is 29, so it's not unreasonable to think he's lost a half of stride, especially as a guy his size takes a beating over the years. And as the game gets faster, that becomes more noticeable.

Giroux's problem as he slows absolutely and relatively is his lack of size - a bigger center could use his body and strength to enter the zone without explosive speed, it's just easier to check a smaller center if you can hit him (which is why Konency can struggle along the boards where it's harder to duck a hit, watching him try to squeeze by a 210 lb D-man can be laughable).

You can't make G bigger or faster going forward, you can get him better forwards and defensemen like Provorov or Sanheim who can carry the puck in and force the defense (they present a bigger threat than Ghost due to size, you go to check them and if you take the wrong angle you might bounce off and get taken out of the play) to account for them.

Going forward, to get the most production out of Giroux, they'll have to limit his minutes (reduce wear and tear), and improve the talent around him (make it harder to match a checking line against him).

Being a big center doesn't mean they're going to age better than a smaller guy.

Just look at Lecavalier and MSL.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I think the zone entries is due to the team around him and system instead of his skating. He's trying to play it safe by dumping the puck to avoid odd man rushes going the other way.

If it's the system, why does Couturier have a 64.0% carry-in percentage compared to Giroux's carry-in % of 47.8?

If anything, Couturier should have the excuse of dumping the puck to avoid odd man rushes, since he plays against the opponents' top lines and is tasked with more defensive responsibility.

 

[hatcher]

If it's the system, why does Couturier have a 64.0% carry-in percentage compared to Giroux's carry-in % of 47.8?

If anything, Couturier should have the excuse of dumping the puck to avoid odd man rushes, since he plays against the opponents' top lines and is tasked with more defensive responsibility.

It's not the system. These players lack as a group. it's easy to see.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Remember when we made the playoffs last year ?

 

[deadhead]

Being a big center doesn't mean they're going to age better than a smaller guy.

Just look at Lecavalier and MSL.

Injury is the bugaboo for all players.

Up to age 30, Vinnie was invincible, then he started getting injured on a regular basis. This is why I'm not in favor of signing free agents, the odds of them falling off a cliff rises after age 30.

All things held equal, a big center with average speed has an advantage over a smaller center with average speed - physics does matter. You can't hit what you can't catch, but if you can catch a smaller player, those hits are harder simply because of physics (watch Konency trying to hit a big defenseman, A for effort, E for effect).

 

[deadhead]

Remember when we made the playoffs last year ?

Remember when our goalies actually stopped routine shots?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Unrestricted free agency is a trap.

I hate it. You are almost always paying a premium in cap hit and term, to players with hundreds of games of NHL wear and tear, based on prior performance rather than future production.

With the NHL increasingly becoming a faster, younger man's game, the dangers of the UFA market have only grown.

I think the best general rule is to avoid the UFA market completely.

 

[BillDineen]

Unrestricted free agency is a trap.

I hate it. You are almost always paying a premium in cap hit and term, to players with hundreds of games of NHL wear and tear, based on prior performance rather than future production.

With the NHL increasingly becoming a faster, younger man's game, the dangers of the UFA market have only grown.

I think the best general rule is to avoid the UFA market completely.

I agree completely with this.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unrestricted free agency is a trap.

I hate it. You are almost always paying a premium in cap hit and term, to players with hundreds of games of NHL wear and tear, based on prior performance rather than future production.

With the NHL increasingly becoming a faster, younger man's game, the dangers of the UFA market have only grown.

I think the best general rule is to avoid the UFA market completely.

Yeah, it's one thing to add a player or two occasionally but otherwise it is significantly more cap efficient to grow your own players

 

[Appleyard]

Yeh, UFA should be used sparingly and on shorter term deals.

I think it is a solid place to get undervalued bottom six wingers especially if do homework. Sometimes 4C's too and back-up goalies.

Everything else is simply massive risk.

 

[deadhead]

One reason FAs are overpriced is the "marketing effect," look, we're serious about competing, we just purchased a 30 year old "big name." Now go buy season tickets (which may make the purchase worthwhile for the team financially, at least in the short-run). Unfortunately, you're usually paying for "big name's" future production based on his 26-29 year old peak production.

Which is why the bargains are probably the "no names," who don't get a marketing premium and are often players without gaudy statistics that impress sportswriters but whom will often be two way players that help you win.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Remember when our goalies actually stopped routine shots?

Who?

 

[Tripod]

Unrestricted free agency is a trap.

I hate it. You are almost always paying a premium in cap hit and term, to players with hundreds of games of NHL wear and tear, based on prior performance rather than future production.

With the NHL increasingly becoming a faster, younger man's game, the dangers of the UFA market have only grown.

I think the best general rule is to avoid the UFA market completely.

So what will it be when Simmonds is a UFA at age 31?

Exactly this. Hence my thought process on not re-signing him and exploring his value around the league.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

So what will it be when Simmonds is a UFA at age 31?

Exactly this. Hence my thought process on not re-signing him and exploring his value around the league.

I hate the thought of not having Simmonds, but I agree that eventually it's something that must be considered.

I don't want to get locked into a long-term, big $$$ contract with him that starts at age 31.

 

[deadhead]

It's why you talk extension early, then if you can't come to a mutually satisfactory agreement, you think about a trade.