Post-Game Talk: #40 | Blue Jackets at FLYERS | Thursday, Jan. 20, 2022 | 7:00 pm ET | NBCSP, BSOH

[Beef Invictus]

In the 9 years Fletcher was the GM for the Wild, they won a total of 13 playoff games.

If you put all of Fletcher's playoff wins in 9 years into 1 playoff year, you wouldn't even get a Cup.

The Nashville Predators were better at building a team than Fletcher was. They won over 30 playoff games in that stretch.


And they have never had a 1C or elite offensive talent, and lacked the financial resources of Minnesota. Fletcher builds doormats.

 

[Shrike]

The Nashville Predators were better at building a team than Fletcher was. They won over 30 playoff games in that stretch.


And they have never had a 1C or elite offensive talent, and lacked the financial resources of Minnesota.

Plus Chuck Fletcher sucked really bad and barely did anything.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Plus Chuck Fletcher sucked really bad and barely did anything.

They have a lot fewer wins during his reign if Suter doesn't gift himself to the Wild and then play half of every game for years.

He was bidding against himself and still lost on the contract, too. I don't expect that we'll have any Norris-finalist dmen gifting themselves to us anytime soon.

 

[pit]

Minnesota won 15 PO games over 9 years.

Oh, sorry, I stand corrected. They are 1 game short of enough totals wins over 9 years to get a Cup, not 3.

then after they fired Fenton, the next GM has gotten them back on the backs of the assets Fletcher accumulated.

They won 7 PO games in the 3 years Fletcher's been GM.

When Minnesota makes the playoffs a year after Fletcher is gone, that's Fletcher's success.
When the Flyers make the playoffs a year after Hextall is gone, that's also Fletcher's success.
Or did Hextall's assets get them 7 playoff wins in the season after he was hired, almost half as many as Fletcher got in his whole Wild tenure?

Pick a lane.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh, sorry, I stand corrected. They are 1 game short of enough wins over 9 years to get a Cup, not 3.




So when Minnesota makes the playoffs a year after Fletcher is gone, that's Fletcher's success.
When the Flyers make the playoffs a year after Hextall is gone, that's also Fletcher's success.
Or did Hextall's assets get them 7 playoff wins in the season after he was hired, almost half as many as Fletcher got in his whole Wild tenure?

Pick a lane.

But when the Flyers miss the playoffs consecutively after Fletcher gets all credit for Hextall Draftee Hart saving AV and Fletcher in the playoffs, somehow that is Hextall's fault.

The logic is consistently dissolute.


Never mind that a big difference with the Wild now is that Fletcher is no longer surrounding draft picks with 4th/5th line talent. That helps a lot. Meanwhile, we get to have that annually.

 

[deadhead]

Nashwille went for it in 2011-12, then missed the playoffs two years running. Which got Trotz fired and replaced by Lavi.
They traded a 1st and 3rd for Mike Fisher at the TDL, and came up short.
2/17 12 traded a 1st for Gaustad & a 4th, really awful trade.
6/15/12 (2) 2nd rd picks, 3rd rd pick for Lindback (#207-2008)
4/3/13 Forsberg for Latta & Erat
2/15/15 Franson & Santorelli for Jokinen, Leipsic (#89-2012) and 2015 1st
6/6/16 Johansen for Seth Jones
6/29/16 Subban for Weber
11/5/17 Turris for Girard (#37-2016), 2018 2d
2/16/18 Hartman for 2018 1st
2/6/19 Boyle for 2019 2nd
2/25/19 Grunland for Fiala (#11-2014)
6/22/19 (2) 2nd rd picks for Subban
10/7/20 Kunin & 3rd for Bonino, 2nd, 4th
7/1/21 2nd, 3rd for Arvidsson (#112-2014)
7/17/21 Myers, Glass for Ellis

Crazy, outside of the Forsberg trade, they leaked value.

So how they stay competitive -
Grunland, trade
Duchene, FA 2019
Forsberg, trade
Johansen, trade
Sissons, #50-2012
Jeannot, UDFA-2018
Kunin, trade
Tolvanen, #30-2017
Trenin, #55-2015
Cousins, FA 2020
Novak, #85-2015
Tomasino, #24-2019

Josi, #38-2008
Ekholm #102-2009
Carrier #115-2015
Fabbro, #17-2016
Benning, FA-2020
Borowiecki, FA-2020
Myers, trade

Saros, #99-2013

The key was drafting really well, then developing prospects, not just for the Preds, but to enhance their trade value.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Nashwille went for it in 2011-12, then missed the playoffs two years running. Which got Trotz fired and replaced by Lavi.
They traded a 1st and 3rd for Mike Fisher at the TDL, and came up short.
2/17 12 traded a 1st for Gaustad & a 4th, really awful trade.
6/15/12 (2) 2nd rd picks, 3rd rd pick for Lindback
4/3/13 Forsberg for Latta & Erat
2/15/15 Franson & Santorelli for Jokinen, Leipsic and 2015 1st
6/6/16 Johansen for Seth Jones
6/29/16 Subban for Weber
11/5/17 Turris for Girard, 2018 2d
2/16/18 Hartman for 2018 1st
2/6/19 Boyle for 2019 2nd
2/25/19 Grunland for Fiala
6/22/19 (2) 2nd rd picks for Subban
10/7/20 Kunin & 3rd for Bonino, 2nd, 4th
7/1/21 2nd, 3rd for Arvidsson
7/17/21 Myers, Glass for Ellis

Crazy, outside of the Forsberg trade, they leaked value.

So how they stay competitive -
Grunland, trade
Duchene, FA 2019
Forsberg, trade
Johansen, trade
Sissons, #50-2012
Jeannot, UDFA-2018
Kunin, trade
Tolvanen, #30-2017
Trenin, #55-2015
Cousins, FA 2020
Novak, #85-2015
Tomasino, #24-2019

Josi, #38-2008
Ekholm #102-2009
Carrier #115-2015
Fabbro, #17-2016
Benning, FA-2020
Borowiecki, FA-2020
Myers, trade

Saros, #99-2013




Josi #38-2008

There is no getting around Poile churning out better teams and results than Fletcher did. None at all. And he did it with a massive headcase in net and without much offensive talent to speak of.

You are sitting there denigrating the job Poile did, but the joke's on you because he outperformed Fletcher handily, and he did it with a lot less money to back him. Mock him all you want; it just makes Fletcher look all the worse. Definitely helps us understand how things are going so badly here under his watch.

 

[deadhead]

There is no getting around Poile churning out better teams and results than Fletcher did. None at all. And he did it with a massive headcase in net and without much offensive talent to speak of.

You are sitting there denigrating the job Poile did, but the joke's on you because he outperformed Fletcher handily, and he did it with a lot less money to back him. Mock him all you want; it just makes Fletcher look all the worse. Definitely helps us understand how things are going so badly here under his watch.

He did it with great drafting, his trades were meh, Duchene is finally playing well after starting out worse than Hayes.
Give any GM enough excess value and they can survive a few bad trades, like moving four 1st rd picks for nothing.
The players they traded for were obtained by giving value in return, value created by great drafting.

Which shows the key is to focus first on drafting and developing players, THEN trade your surplus for players who fill needs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He did it with great drafting, his trades were meh, Duchene is finally playing well after starting out worse than Hayes.
Give any GM enough excess value and they can survive a few bad trades, like moving four 1st rd picks for nothing.
The players they traded for were obtained by giving value in return, value created by great drafting.

Which shows the key is to focus first on drafting and developing players, THEN trade your surplus for players who fill needs.

Fletcher's development process here is punitive and terrible.

You're right, he should be fired.

 

[Lindberg]

I really enjoy how the lack of success of Nashville is a huge barometer for Fletcher.

These posters can't blame the players of Voracek, Ghost, etc. because they aren't around.

Then they turn to blame AV but who hired AV? I'm sure they'll blame Dave Scott and say AV was the only choice.

Can't blame the man who holds all the cards.

 

[Danko]

read the article that the flyers basically forgot jawn night, lol.

 

[Adtar02]

Minnesota won 15 PO games over 9 years.
The Flyers won 12 PO games over 8 years between making the SC Finals and hiring Fletcher.
They won 7 PO games in the 3 years Fletcher's been GM.

in the year he did the least damage to the roster. And AV did the least damage on the system till the playoffs

 

[deadhead]

My point on GMs if you look at most GMs, they don't garner a lot of value through trades, they usually hit a couple, lose on a couple. TDL trades almost always loss value, which is why I'm adamantly against them (except for low cost moves), paying a high price for a month or two of a player where you hope there's chemistry and he plays well.

The key to building a top franchise is to find value through the draft, the waiver wire and low cost trades - not with the fantasy of the big move.
For every big move that works out, there are two that flame out.

But teams that incrementally build up talent and depth can survive bad trades - look at Boston the last two decades! Which means they can gamble with big moves without endangering the future of the franchise.

The problem for the Flyers is they've never committed to building up the talent base, Holmgren had a great start with the Carter and Richards trades, had he done what Gorton did in NY, by 2015 the Flyers would have had an elite talent base. I think Hextall would have liked to have done so, but he had a conflicting mandate to both rebuild and stay competitive - imagine trading Mason after 2015, etc. Instead he patched with mediocre veterans for a few years while drafting mostly in the 20s, Provorov #7, Patrick #2, Farabee #14, Sanheim #17 - compare to the Avs. Of course, he didn't maximize those high picks, but even teams with 3 or 4 tend to whiff on one of them.

And Fletcher comes in with Scott/Holmgren urging a "bias for action," i.e., trade picks and prospects for players who can help us win now, because we're the Flyers, we don't rebuild. Fletcher resisted for two years then sold the farm last summer.

For all the people clamoring for an Eichel trade, now a Draisaitl trade, what's the track record for losing teams making these kinds of moves? I suspect dismal, because if you're not that deep, and you strip your organization for one player, that player probably flounders without good talent around him - i.e. Edmonton. If McDavid and Draisaitl can't make Edmonton a winner, what makes you think Draisaitl can make the Flyers a winner?

You build a winning team by building a team. It takes patience, good drafting and keeping your "eye on the prize." There are no shortcuts, what accelerates the process are good decisions and a bit of luck. And you use all avenues to add talent.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Bad teams who trade for stars stay bad because of organizational incompetence. The lack of depth is a symptom, not the root cause. Bad teams are bad because their development is shit and they consistently lose in the margins. That's how you get depth.

You can drop McDavid into a poorly-run org for free. They'll still find a way to make it fail. That's where the local franchise is now. Stop watching. Stop giving them money in any form. That's the only chance for meaningful change.

 

[deadhead]

How did Florida do it? Through amazing trades or incremental moves:
First of all, they sucked for a long time, 10 years missing the PO, 1st rd exist in 2015-16, 3 more years missing the PO, 1st rd exit QR 2019-20.
Zito:
9/24/20 Hornqvist for Matheson, Scevior
10/8/20 Nutivaara for Pu
1/9/20 signed Verhaeghe as FA
10/9/20 signed Lomberg as FA, 2yr/$1.5M
12/18/20 Duclair signed as FA, 1yr/$1.7M, resigned 3yr/$9M
1/9/21 claimed Forsling off waivers
4/10/21 Montour for 2021 3rd rd
4/12/21 Bennett for 2022 2nd, Heineman (#43-2020)
7/24/21 Reinhart for 2022 1st, Levi (7th rd goalie who's been lights out his freshman season at Northeastern)
7/26/21 salary dump of Stralman, 2024 2nd, Kolyachonov (#52-2019)
8/13/21 signed Thornton as FA, $750K
12/13/21 claimed Johansson off waivers

Of course, he inherited a core of talent, Ekblad (#1), Barkov (#2), Huberdeau (#3), Lundell (#12), Tippett (#10), Weegar, Knight (#12), Bob (FA).
He stole Bennett, gave up value for Reinhart, but the real skill was finding undervalued assets like Verhaege (TB let him walk) and Duclair, and guys who were good fits like Gudas.
Note he was willing to trade 2nd and 3rd rd picks and prospects, but not for aging veterans.

 

[Beef Invictus]

How did Florida do it? Through amazing trades or incremental moves:
First of all, they sucked for a long time, 10 years missing the PO, 1st rd exist in 2015-16, 3 more years missing the PO, 1st rd exit QR 2019-20.
Zito:
9/24/20 Hornqvist for Matheson, Scevior
10/8/20 Nutivaara for Pu
1/9/20 signed Verhaeghe as FA
10/9/20 signed Lomberg as FA, 2yr/$1.5M
12/18/20 Duclair signed as FA, 1yr/$1.7M, resigned 3yr/$9M
1/9/21 claimed Forsling off waivers
4/10/21 Montour for 2021 3rd rd
4/12/21 Bennett for 2022 2nd, Heineman (#43-2020)
7/24/21 Reinhart for 2022 1st, Levi (7th rd goalie who's been lights out his freshman season at Northeastern)
7/26/21 salary dump of Stralman, 2024 2nd, Kolyachonov (#52-2019)
8/13/21 signed Thornton as FA, $750K
12/13/21 claimed Johansson off waivers

Of course, he inherited a core of talent, Ekblad (#1), Barkov (#2), Huberdeau (#3), Lundell (#12), Tippett (#10), Weegar, Knight (#12), Bob (FA).
He stole Bennett, gave up value for Reinhart, but the real skill was finding undervalued assets like Verhaege (TB let him walk) and Duclair, and guys who were good fits like Gudas.
Note he was willing to trade 2nd and 3rd rd picks and prospects, but not for aging veterans.

We have a GM who loses trades at a very high rate, who has sucked in FA, and who is unremarkable at drafting.

Do you think that is good?

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Hypothetically, would 1 20-loss streak also be considered 2 10s?

Technically, 11 straight is already two tens...

1-10 and 2-11.

 

[Soup Enthusiast]

yo this is some next level cringe

 

[BernieParent]

Technically, 11 straight is already two tens...

1-10 and 2-11.

Thanks for agreeing with my follow-up post ... somewhere on these boards.