Post-Game Talk: #3 | FLYERS 3 at Ducks 2 (OT) | Sat. Oct. 7, 10:00 pm ET

[whitstifier]

The Flyers are already in a position in which they should be making trades.

MacDonald, Read, Manning, Weise, Filppula, Lehtera, et al are hogging icetime from young players at the AHL and NHL level.

This team should make the playoffs. Anything less is a failure at this point.

 

[Striiker]

If you don't give him a weal shot, how can you be sure?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

The Flyers are already in a position in which they should be making trades.

MacDonald, Read, Manning, Weise, Filppula, Lehtera, et al are hogging icetime from young players at the AHL and NHL level.

This team should make the playoffs. Anything less is a failure at this point.

Nope. Your impatience is something for you, not the team, to handle.

 

[whitstifier]

Nope. Your impatience is something for you, not the team, to handle.

I don't see how I'm impatient. It's been ~4 years since Hextall took over. That's been enough time to significantly improve depth at all levels.

This is now the stage where Hextall's group should get the results at the NHL level. Several of his drafted players are ready to contribute. If the team is incapable of making the playoffs over the next two seasons, then Hextall should get fired.

Trading Read and Manning shouldn't be major transactions. For some reason, Hextall seems to overvalue marginal NHL talent. Get rid of the slop already...

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I don't see how I'm impatient.

I don't know why you quoted me in the first place, but anyway, they weren't talking about trading our slop - they were talking about trading for f**king Drew Doughty, Seguin and Duchene (again), which would cost us a bomb, both in trade assets and in near-term salary cap dollars, which is stupid and counterproductive. (It would be stupid to do, rather - there's no harm in talking about it.) As far as our slop goes, we could rocket the bums and bozos on the roster to the face of the Moon for all I care. But that's not what they were talking about.

 

[BernieParent]

I don't know why you quoted me in the first place, but anyway, they weren't talking about trading our slop - they were talking about trading for f**king Drew Doughty, Seguin and Duchene (again), which would cost us a bomb, both in trade assets and in near-term salary cap dollars, which is stupid and counterproductive. (It would be stupid to do, rather - there's no harm in talking about it.) As far as our slop goes, we could rocket the bums and bozos on the roster to the face of the Moon for all I care. But that's not what they were talking about.

As much as I am enamoured with the thought of acquiring Doughty, you're right (sigh). Man, that Doughty - MacDonald top line would be sick!

But seriously, the trajectory of this team is in a very healthy upward angle. Very good games against tough west coast opponents gives a SSS indication of what we have hoped for, even with some questionable coaching decisions. What it does do is put Hextall in an excellent position to be watching for deals that benefit the team at (relatively) low cost.

 

[Macleish 1974]

Hextall does not trade anyone until a GM comes up to him and makes an offer for that player. Would he trade Read for a 2nd round draft pick.....surely he would. But I do not think Hextall would go trade for someone which in most cases would be a sideways move. Hextall only makes cat like moves

 

[whitstifier]

I don't know why you quoted me in the first place, but anyway, they weren't talking about trading our slop - they were talking about trading for f**king Drew Doughty, Seguin and Duchene (again), which would cost us a bomb, both in trade assets and in near-term salary cap dollars, which is stupid and counterproductive. (It would be stupid to do, rather - there's no harm in talking about it.) As far as our slop goes, we could rocket the bums and bozos on the roster to the face of the Moon for all I care. But that's not what they were talking about.

I don't think these are separate issues. It's one thing to say you'd rocket the fringe players away, but another to consider realistic trades. The Flyers will have to give up something of value to trade MacDonalds, Weises and Lehteras. Contending teams make trades that compromise long term depth.

It's also worth considering FAs and trades to improve the roster now. The Flyers have the assets to make improvements now.

Right now, there seems to be controversy on this board to taking a balanced approach. If someone favors a trade or signing of even non allstar players, they're impatient or shortsighted. It's nonsense

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Contending teams make trades that compromise long term depth.

What on Earth makes you think we are a "contending team"? We have barely launched our young players into the league and still have no idea which ones are going to lead the charge into the future and which ones are going to flame out - now is not at all the time for this team to be making "go for it" trades. We can live with the Flips and Lehteras and Weises for now, as terrible as they are - giving up assets just to jettison them would be insane. No one on here is more sick of Amac than I am, but I wouldn't want to give up anything to get rid of even him. I'd like to demote him, if said rocket trip were off the table, but I'm not going to give up assets to do it.

 

[Rebels57]

Delete duplicate

 

[1865]

It seems a little strange to say when he has 4 points in 3 games, especially after a monster assist in Anaheim but i'm a little concerned about Jake. His play so far has been extremely lethargic, both goals allowed in the last game came from turnovers he caused and he seems to have forgotten how to shoot entirely. It might be a little premature, but i want to see more from him.

 

[whitstifier]

What on Earth makes you think we are a "contending team"? We have barely launched our young players into the league and still have no idea which ones are going to lead the charge into the future and which ones are going to flame out - now is not at all the time for this team to be making "go for it" trades. We can live with the Flips and Lehteras and Weises for now, as terrible as they are - giving up assets just to jettison them would be insane. No one on here is more sick of Amac than I am, but I wouldn't want to give up anything to get rid of even him. I'd like to demote him, if said rocket trip were off the table, but I'm not going to give up assets to do it.

I never said that they were... I mean to say that getting better or improving is not just about hoarding picks and prospects. At some point, it's necessary to put together a roster of surefire NHL talent.

Insane? Might want to reconsider your position if you respond to arguments with hyperbole.

The Flyers are overflowing with picks and prospects over the next two seasons. Giving up some assets to clean up the AHL and NHL roster isn't going to damn this franchise.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Insane? Might want to reconsider your position if you respond to arguments with hyperbole.

 

[Prongo]

So did we get Doughty yet?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The Flyers will have to give up something of value to trade MacDonalds, Weises and Lehteras. Contending teams make trades that compromise long term depth.

There's an implied assumption here that they have to be traded, though. Why is that the case? Lehtera can be benched and allowed to walk after next year, which seems to be the plan. Weise and MacDonald are playing. You may not value them (and I sure as hell don't either), but they do. They're not going to pay to dump them right now.

To take it a step further, you pay less as time goes on to dump salary, right? What move are you making today that means you need the cap space? Otherwise, you're costing yourself more than you should to make dumps.

It's also worth considering FAs and trades to improve the roster now. The Flyers have the assets to make improvements now.

Right now, there seems to be controversy on this board to taking a balanced approach. If someone favors a trade or signing of even non allstar players, they're impatient or shortsighted. It's nonsense

Having the assets is not a reason to make a move, though. In a world with perfect information, you would trade off the lesser assets and keep your stars, but in practice sometimes you just have to let things play out before you can determine who is expendable, even if their value depreciates while you're evaluating.

I have zero problem with acquiring anyone that can improve the team in either the short or long term, as long as the price makes sense. It's an unwieldy discussion to have without having specific players to evaluate. I'll argue until I'm blue in the face against Duchene, though.

 

[whitstifier]

There's an implied assumption here that they have to be traded, though. Why is that the case? Lehtera can be benched and allowed to walk after next year, which seems to be the plan. Weise and MacDonald are playing. You may not value them (and I sure as hell don't either), but they do. They're not going to pay to dump them right now.

To take it a step further, you pay less as time goes on to dump salary, right? What move are you making today that means you need the cap space? Otherwise, you're costing yourself more than you should to make dumps.



Having the assets is not a reason to make a move, though. In a world with perfect information, you would trade off the lesser assets and keep your stars, but in practice sometimes you just have to let things play out before you can determine who is expendable, even if their value depreciates while you're evaluating.

I have zero problem with acquiring anyone that can improve the team in either the short or long term, as long as the price makes sense. It's an unwieldy discussion to have without having specific players to evaluate. I'll argue until I'm blue in the face against Duchene, though.

There's value in making room for players to excel. Sure, the Flyers might "lose" some trades if they're proactive in shedding fringe players. But it's worth it if the best talent can get iced. Right now, Hex/Haks are failing to ice the best team.

I never said that the Flyers should seek trades just because they have assets. They could be a lot more proactive in trading for/signing players.

Agreed, just airing slight annoyance with the patience crowd

 

[Protest]

I don't see how I'm impatient. It's been ~4 years since Hextall took over. That's been enough time to significantly improve depth at all levels.

This is now the stage where Hextall's group should get the results at the NHL level. Several of his drafted players are ready to contribute. If the team is incapable of making the playoffs over the next two seasons, then Hextall should get fired.

Trading Read and Manning shouldn't be major transactions. For some reason, Hextall seems to overvalue marginal NHL talent. Get rid of the slop already...

Read isn't in the league and Manning isn't playing....it takes 2 teams to trade.

 

[whitstifier]

Read isn't in the league and Manning isn't playing....it takes 2 teams to trade.

Read's taking icetime away from prospects. I'm sure there are teams interested in Read and Manning.

 

[Protest]

Read's taking icetime away from prospects. I'm sure there are teams interested in Read and Manning.

You're sure of that? I don't think they're untradable, but they're definitely not the kind of players teams are going to be searching out. You'd have to find a team with long term injuries and no youth ready to come in to fill a spot.

 

[deadhead]

There is no reason for Hextall to rush.
Most prospects, outside of a few 1st rd picks, don't arrive until they're 22-23 (college/juniors, 1-2 AHL seasons).
So to build a critical mass of young talent, starting with one of the worst farm systems in hockey, takes about 5 years.
In year 4 we're seeing the first wave, year 5 the next wave.

There are two kinds of deals:
1) "take out the trash," Hextall has been making these for 3 years, if he can move MacDonald, Lehtera, Filppula, Read, etc. he will, but since he's not cap constrained he's not going to sacrifice real assets (see Hartnell deal).
2) "chess moves" - this is where you sacrifice real assets to obtain other assets that are a better LONG-TERM fit.

Flyers are not in win now mode where they try to obtain the one player that might put them over the top, and hopefully, with the steady supply of talent, they never will be.
When Hextall makes a serious trade, it's likely to be young talent for young talent, in a year or two with excess defensemen he might put a package together for a young prospect who is cost controlled, but not a "name" who's close to free agency and will bust the salary cap.
Most likely, deals this year will be "trash" deals, where he moves a couple veterans for draft picks and shifting salaries around, maybe add a short-term patch.
The big deals are probably a year or two away after they assess their young talent and decide who are the "keepers" and who is trade bait.
The wild cards are Simmonds and Voracek, Simmonds because of impending contract/UFA concerns, Voracek because of fit (can he play in this scheme at a high level?).

 

[deadhead]

Read's taking icetime away from prospects. I'm sure there are teams interested in Read and Manning.

They're not sitting real prospects for Read, they'll set inferior AHL veterans for him.
And he can be a coach on the ice in the AHL, having started for years in the NHL, he has a gravitas that a McDonald or Varone can't match.

Hextall will trade Read as much to do him a favor as to dump him.

 

[pit]

Read's taking icetime away from prospects. I'm sure there are teams interested in Read and Manning.

Gordon normally takes ice time from prospects and gives it to AHL veterans. Until we have better coaching down there, Read's roster spot is the least of our worries.

 

[Stizzle]

Read's taking icetime away from prospects. I'm sure there are teams interested in Read and Manning.

Read is playing on the 4th line in Lehigh Valley. He's not getting PP time either.

Giving up draft picks to trade Read, Lehtera, and Weise is so obviously a bad idea for us at this point. Yes, we are deep in prospects and youth.

When that happens you do what Hextall did in the 2nd round this year. Package a bunch of picks to move up in the draft and select the guy you really want and had ranked significantly higher.

 

[Magua]

Looks like everyone got their wish. Flyers just made a franchise changing trade.

 

[deadhead]

For the Phantoms!
At least he was decent in his one NHL cameo, so worst comes to worst he can fill in for a couple weeks if Lyon is struggling and one of the goalies gets injured.