2nd Best Defenceman Of The 80s

[Boxscore]

Is there any stats way that one can prove if potvin benefited Trottier and Bossy or vise versa.And Coffey benefited Gretzey and messier or vise versa.And same with orr and esposito that would be very informative.One would have to go over every game and read the newspaper stories of the games

Forget about all that nonsense. Potvin was one of the meanest SOBs to play the game and he CAPTAINED his team throughout a dynasty. He was a machine in his own end and produced at a top level offensively. Not to mention that his intangibles were off the charts. The thing he had over guys like Lidstrom, Bourque and Coffey was FEAR FACTOR. Players despised playing against Potvin. He literally had no flaws to his game whatsoever and possessed one of the largest wills to win of all-time. The man HATED losing. Hated it with a passion.

 

[Big Phil]

If you considered Coffey average defensively then its no surprise that it was the highest scoring era in modern NHL history.

Put it this way, is Erik Karlsson poor defensively? This is pretty much the standard for how Coffey was viewed back then too. Not great, but capable and decent defensively, yet that isn't his strongest point of his game. Mike Green is thought to be Phil Housley. Much, worse defensively than Karlsson, just like Housley was noticeably worse than Coffey. So yeah, average.

Coffey's offensive game does not make up for his lack of a defensive one if using players like Bourque Potvin, Fetisov as the standard.

I disagree with this. That is how good he was offensively. Who was the best one offensively in that group? Potvin? Coffey is noticeably better offensively than him at that time. That makes a difference, because yes it is true he was not as good defensively as either of them. But I've never thought Fetisov could bridge the gap offensively as well as the other two. Which is why I always put Bourque as the best in the 1980s. But Potvin behind Coffey because he wasn't exceeding Coffey in the Norris voting in the 1980s at all. There is a reason for that. Coffey was just too explosive offensively to ignore. It goes well beyond Erik Karlsson here if you want a comparable.

Is there any stats way that one can prove if potvin benefited Trottier and Bossy or vise versa.And Coffey benefited Gretzey and messier or vise versa.And same with orr and esposito that would be very informative.One would have to go over every game and read the newspaper stories of the games

Not really, great players complement great players. However, when Potvin missed most of the season in 1979-'80 we saw Trottier and Bossy's numbers drop a lot. Not to the point where they weren't elite, but definitely to the point where they weren't flirting with the scoring lead. So yeah, most would agree Potvin was always the glue of that franchise.

It's been beaten to death that Esposito did just fine without Orr, of course having Orr is a big help. Coffey scored pretty much wherever he went and was a teammate of 9 out of the top 10 single season point leaders in NHL history. That's a stat that has a common denominator you can't ignore. I guess when Coffey missed some time in 1986-'87 you saw Gretzky's numbers "dip" below 200 if that counts.

 

[Hobnobs]

Fetisov and Kasatonov were not on speaking terms with each other long before Kasatonov was brought over to play for the Devils. Kasatonov was brought over because the Devils desperately needed defenseman.

As to the allegation that Fetisov was playing poorly, no foreigner from the hated Soviet Union in the midst of the Cold War was going to be allowed to step in and take over a leadership role. In fact, according to Brendan Shanahan's account in the NY Daily News, Fetisov's Devils "teammates" openly and "shamefully" conspired to allow opposing forecheckers open access to backstabbing Fetisov (checking from behind face first into the boards) to make sure he understood how welcome Russky Commies were taking the jobs of North Americans.

People on this forum don't believe that racism in the NHL were prominent during the '90s.

 

[Pominville Knows]

People on this forum don't believe that racism in the NHL were prominent during the '90s.

It does seem very fitting if it happened on those terrible Devils teams as well, since the players had no prospect of actually winning anything anyway. So why not act out instead?

 

[Hobnobs]

It does seem very fitting if it happened on those terrible Devils teams as well, since the players had no prospect of actually winning anything anyway. So why not act out instead?

The racism was very outspoken on most teams in the NHL. Amongst players and fans alike.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The racism was very outspoken on most teams in the NHL. Amongst players and fans alike.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Killion]

The racism was very outspoken on most teams in the NHL. Amongst players and fans alike.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Indeed. I think Hobnobs the word your looking for is xenophobia.

 

[Hobnobs]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I know exactly what it means but there is a few out there who thinks the word is limited to race, ie. skin colour.

Indeed. I think Hobnobs the word your looking for is xenophobia.

Xenophobia is a good word too but how about nationalism which is the most common "xenophobia"?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Is there any stats way that one can prove if potvin benefited Trottier and Bossy or vise versa.And Coffey benefited Gretzey and messier or vise versa.And same with orr and esposito that would be very informative.One would have to go over every game and read the newspaper stories of the games

From everything I have read, seen or heard I am more than comfortable saying that Potvin helped Bossy and Trots more than they helped him.
That Espo is still very good without Orr but he's not close to 76 goals good.
That Coffey is still a 100 point D-man without Gretz and Mario but he's a lot closer to just 100 than he is to 130 without them.

There is no way Coffey evens sniffs 138 points without Gretzky.

As far as the "racism" back in the 80's and 90's. I don't think anyone will deny that there was something going on (not as rampant as some would have us believe though) but at the same time it seemed that there were a lot of repeating names on the "victim's list".
More than a few of the repeaters had quite the history of low bridges and especially spitting.

 

[VMBM]

Krutov and his failures in the nHL should be treated very much like a great finnish player in Matti Hagman.

Even though the stats show that he played e.g. 75 games for the Bruins in the 1976-77 season, Hagman himself claims that he often got only a few shifts per game. Well, it's not like Don Cherry loved European players, so there might be at least something there. I haven't studied this, but that seems to be the 'official party line' in Finland ("It was because of Don Cherry").

As far as his career in the Edmonton Oilers goes, Hagman claims that it was hard to play center in the same team with Wayne Gretzky; i.e. Gretzky would often play such long shifts that it limited Hagman's ice-time. Excuses excuses? Maybe, but Hagman's NHL stats in 1980-81 & 1981-82 aren't awful, when considering that the Oilers weren't quite world-beaters yet. And Mark Messier has said some very nice things about Hagman (Hagman centered him for a while in the early 1980s). And heck, if it wasn't for Hagman, Jari Kurri probably wouldn't have left for the NHL in 1980 yet. Kurri has said that if Hagman had decided to stay in Finland, he would've done the same thing; Kurri didn't speak English very well etc. Of course he would have left Finland in any case... eventually.

And yep, Hagman is one of the best Finnish players ever: great hockey IQ, great passer, good goal-scorer. His son Niklas isn't even close IMO.

 

[seventieslord]

Hagman played 10-11 minutes per game in Boston, definitely low, but not just "a few shifts per game".

 

[VMBM]

Hagman played 10-11 minutes per game in Boston, definitely low, but not just "a few shifts per game".

So I guess the 'Don Cherry factor' has probably been exaggerated in Finland, yeah?

Whatever the case, I believe he himself wanted to be traded from Boston, and so he ended up in the Quebec Nordiques in the WHA, where he centered Real Cloutier and Marc Tardif in 1977-78, and then returned to Finland for a couple of seasons.

 

[Sanf]

So I guess the 'Don Cherry factor' has probably been exaggerated in Finland, yeah?

Whatever the case, I believe he himself wanted to be traded from Boston, and so he ended up in the Quebec Nordiques in the WHA, where he centered Real Cloutier and Marc Tardif in 1977-78, and then returned to Finland for a couple of seasons.

I have read about Hagmans career from newspaperarchives and many seems to talk about him being in Cherrys doghouse. I remember Cherry talking about something like "He could play power play but otherwise he has much to learn about NA hockey". Also somehow I have troubles seeing Hagman as the most humble "rookie" so I wouldn´t be surprised if Hagman has caused it himself.

Early in 80-81 at Oilers he played at checking line roles. About 2/3 season played they formed Messier-Hagman-Andersson line. Messier had almost drop out of the playing roster but at last third of the season he was on fire. He really gives lot of warm comments about Hagman. Basically it seem that Messier had his real breakthrough playing with Hagman. They started the next season were they left at last one. Hagman had 16 goals in first 28 games (with 36 shots). Messier had 20 goals and Andersson had 14+23. Then I actually don´t know what happened. Some sources say that Messier played lot more with Gretzky in the last part of the season. After that season Hagman came back to Finland because he was tired of playing the second fiddle. It leaves room for speculation to how good he had been in other teams. But then again Oilers had very Euro friendly enviroment + very offensive playing style so its hard to say if he would have made any better in other teams.

Lot of OT.

To the question hard to say would I rank Bourque as the best. Potvin is the one that I have seen the least but he really is the closest to my kind of defenceman. Maybe I am one of those who underrates Coffeys defence skills. I´m also one of those who ranks Fetisov as the best of Green unit. Hard to say really.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Taking into account only their play between the 79-80 & 88-89 seasons, who was the next best defenceman of the 80s after Ray Bourque?

Denis Potvin
Paul Coffey
Chris Chelios
Rod Langway
Al MacInnis
Doug Wilson
Mark Howe
Scott Stevens
Larry Robinson
Other

Bourque
Potvin
Coffey
Langway
Wilson
Chelios
Howe
MacInnis
Stevens
Robinson

I suppose that's how I would rank them with importance to their respective team and the assets they were to their club..

Outside of Bourque, Potvin and Coffey it may as well be a crapshoot..

IMO, I'm shocked Dave Babych isn't mentioned or ranked... Maybe he falls into the #2 defender sidekick aspect such as Keith Brown, Bob Murray, Larry Murphy or (place name here ___________) Babych was great but apparently falls in the "second tier" of D-men from the 80's...IMO he should be a top candidate... I'd put him ahead of Robinson....

 

[Pominville Knows]

Terrible racists prowling the NHL at the time of the Cold War. Good thing that they mysteriously all stopped being racists within a couple of years.

/Communist.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

IMO, I'm shocked Dave Babych isn't mentioned or ranked... Maybe he falls into the #2 defender sidekick aspect such as Keith Brown, Bob Murray, Larry Murphy or (place name here ___________) Babych was great but apparently falls in the "second tier" of D-men from the 80's...IMO he should be a top candidate... I'd put him ahead of Robinson....

seriously?

i'm not sure the guy would make my top 50 for the decade, there are so many guys i'd rank ahead of him, all of the above plus just off the top of my head McCrimmon, Housley, Suter, Macoun, Reinhart, Lowe, Giles, Roberts, Hartsburg, Kluzak, Engblom, Svoboda, Ludwig, Green, Duchesne, Leetch, Langevin, Carlyle, Hajt, Ramsey, Schoenfeld, Park, Persson, Morrow, Huddy, Smith, Salming, Larson, O'Connell, Marsh, Rautakallio, Greschner, Maloney, Laidlaw, Ruotsalainen, Beck, Ramage, Milbury, Samuelsson, Marois, Patrick...

no Norris or All-Star votes for Babych... i think he started to play better later in his career, like his stint with the Canucks... he was the drizzling *&@%s when he was with the Jets

 

[feffan]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father! Prepare to die!

Now i know what movie I´ll watch tonight...

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

... annnnd just checked Babych's stats... he was -61 in 81


as well as being -31 in 84 & -25 in 88, with a career total -223

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

seriously?

i'm not sure the guy would make my top 50 for the decade, there are so many guys i'd rank ahead of him, all of the above plus just off the top of my head McCrimmon, Housley, Suter, Macoun, Reinhart, Lowe, Giles, Roberts, Hartsburg, Kluzak, Engblom, Svoboda, Ludwig, Green, Duchesne, Leetch, Langevin, Carlyle, Hajt, Ramsey, Schoenfeld, Park, Persson, Morrow, Huddy, Smith, Salming, Larson, O'Connell, Marsh, Rautakallio, Greschner, Maloney, Laidlaw, Ruotsalainen, Beck, Ramage, Milbury, Samuelsson, Marois, Patrick...

no Norris or All-Star votes for Babych... i think he started to play better later in his career, like his stint with the Canucks... he was the drizzling *&@%s when he was with the Jets

When he was in Hartford he was referred to as "Baggage".

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brad McCrimmon over Dave Babych 100 times out of 100