Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part 1

[Hodge]

I think almost everyone understands that the DW era contracts are the key problem here and are mostly just expressing frustration at management's apparent continued lack of commitment to prioritizing getting futures. And yes, a camp dump at the scale of Monahan was likely out of reach, but smaller ones might not have been. I get that the bolded is rhetorical, but for the sake of argument, if replace all 5 with league min, it's only 125K short, which is readily covered by the impending goalie trade. This is obviously EA NHL 23 levels of management, but it's not unreasonable to hope the sharks make moves similar to this for futures.

If it was so easy to trade one of the goalies it would have happened by now. There's also the Kane situation hanging over everything so no, it was never going to feasible to take on a Monahan-level salary which is basically the cutoff for actually getting a 1st round pick out of one of these trades.

Trading cap space for picks makes sense for teams like Arizona and Montreal that have $10M+ left over after building their entire roster. It's not a realistic option for a capped out team and while having an extra late 1st or 2nd round pick is better than not having one it isn't a realistic path to long term improvement either.

We haven't even entered the rebuild yet. Once Meier is traded and contracts like Labanc and Simek expire then the Sharks might be able to entertain these conversations.

 

[jarr92]

I think almost everyone understands that the DW era contracts are the key problem here and are mostly just expressing frustration at management's apparent continued lack of commitment to prioritizing getting futures. And yes, a camp dump at the scale of Monahan was likely out of reach, but smaller ones might not have been. I get that the bolded is rhetorical, but for the sake of argument, if replace all 5 with league min, it's only 125K short, which is readily covered by the impending goalie trade. This is obviously EA NHL 23 levels of management, but it's not unreasonable to hope the sharks make moves similar to this for futures.

It seems Grier valued changing the culture and building a team in his own vision more than a late 1st or 2nd round pick. I feel like this is the route you take if you're actually confident you can build something in a few years rather than just stockpiling assets for "the future".

 

[fasterthanlight]

If it was so easy to trade one of the goalies it would have happened by now. There's also the Kane situation hanging over everything so no, it was never going to feasible to take on a Monahan-level salary which is basically the cutoff for actually getting a 1st round pick out of one of these trades.

Trading cap space for picks makes sense for teams like Arizona and Montreal that have $10M+ left over after building their entire roster. It's not a realistic option for a capped out team and while having an extra late 1st or 2nd round pick is better than not having one it isn't a realistic path to long term improvement either.

We haven't even entered the rebuild yet. Once Meier is traded and contracts like Labanc and Simek expire then the Sharks might be able to entertain these conversations.

It's not only this, but also: if you replace these players with worse ones, your chances of bedard and michkov go up. I'm fully aware that, unlike Chicago for example, the Sharks management won't overtly and purposefully tank outside of EA NHL. There are a multitude of factors outside the on-ice product that determine organizational direction. But, one can dream, and even marginal steps towards that tanking-today goal (e.g., signing someone to league min vs. giving up a 3rd + 2.75 cap for Kunin) in my eyes, are good in the long term.

It seems Grier valued changing the culture and building a team in his own vision more than a late 1st or 2nd round pick. I feel like this is the route you take if you're actually confident you can build something in a few years rather than just stockpiling assets for "the future".

Definitely fair -- maybe these "building culture" things are more important than the roster on paper. I mean, I'm a random internet poster who wants to "Tank hard for bedard", so what do I know

 

[hohosaregood]

It seems Grier valued changing the culture and building a team in his own vision more than a late 1st or 2nd round pick. I feel like this is the route you take if you're actually confident you can build something in a few years rather than just stockpiling assets for "the future".

Sometimes I think back on the infamous Pierre Dorion quote "we're a team" and I'm like man, I wish I could say that about the Sharks over the past 3 years.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If it was so easy to trade one of the goalies it would have happened by now. There's also the Kane situation hanging over everything so no, it was never going to feasible to take on a Monahan-level salary which is basically the cutoff for actually getting a 1st round pick out of one of these trades.

Trading cap space for picks makes sense for teams like Arizona and Montreal that have $10M+ left over after building their entire roster. It's not a realistic option for a capped out team and while having an extra late 1st or 2nd round pick is better than not having one it isn't a realistic path to long term improvement either.

We haven't even entered the rebuild yet. Once Meier is traded and contracts like Labanc and Simek expire then the Sharks might be able to entertain these conversations.

Saying it was never going to be feasible is flat out false. It's a choice they needed to make before the draft to be available for something like that. They absolutely could've gone down that route and chose not to because they wanted to do other things. The real question is whether those other things like trading for Kunin, signing Sturm, Lindblom, Benning, and Nutivaara or some combination thereof is worth more than the 1st round pick they would get for taking Monahan off the Flames hands. That remains to be seen. Personally, I'm more about acquiring future assets and building from there over pretending those adds are going to change the culture of the team somehow. If it was going to be difficult for them to trade one of the goalies, they probably should've done something about that when they had the opportunity instead of waiting on others to help them out. If the Kane thing is hanging over their heads like some huge deal then I don't think they would've made a lot of the moves they did that has them at the cap now.

Trading cap space for picks makes sense for any team going into a rebuild. You just have to prioritize that over building the roster. Why should anyone prioritize building the roster over accumulating future assets when you're a losing team? That only ensures that you're going to remain in that mediocrity limbo.

 

[spintops]

The claim went from "No point in saving cap space to get 5th rounders, that's all you get taking on bad contracts" to "We couldn't have saved our cap space all summer". The goal posts just keep on moving lol

 

[Hodge]

The claim went from "No point in saving cap space to get 5th rounders, that's all you get taking on bad contracts" to "We couldn't have saved our cap space all summer". The goal posts just keep on moving lol

The point is it’s not Grier’s fault the Sharks don’t have the cap space to take on significant salary dumps but it’s not a big deal anyway because these types of trades are rare and the picks exchanged are not very valuable. But feel free to keep whining that GMMG didn’t buy out Labanc and fill the roster with AHLers to acquire the 13 year old that Montreal just did.

 

[spintops]

The point is it’s not Grier’s fault the Sharks don’t have the cap space to take on significant salary dumps but it’s not a big deal anyway because these types of trades are rare and the picks exchanged are not very valuable. But feel free to keep whining that GMMG didn’t buy out Labanc and fill the roster with AHLers to acquire the 13 year old that Montreal just did.

I'm not blaming him about not getting the trade. Just laughing at your flip flopping that you constantly troll the forums with. You made the same hard point for months after people complained about the way Grier used the cap space. and are doing a total 180 on your original point to argue against their original point.

 

[Hodge]

I'm not blaming him about not getting the trade. Just laughing at your flip flopping that you constantly troll the forums with. You made the same hard point for months after people complained about the way Grier used the cap space. and are doing a total 180 on your original point to argue against their original point.

You don’t seem to understand basic math so let me repeat myself. You can undo all of Grier’s signings/acquisitions and replace those players with guys making league minimum and the Sharks still wouldn’t have enough cap space to add Monahan. That has always been my point. I just happen to also think it’s not a big deal because taking on cap dumps for late picks is pretty inconsequential.

 

[TheBeard]

If only the Sharks had extra cap space… like I’ve been preaching all summer…

Even if they did that, they would have spent the cap money for picks long ago. You're acting as if they went out and spent 50 million this offseason.

You’re right, Mike Grier should have refrained from signing anyone and just kept his roster unfinished well into August on the off chance some team would be willing to give up a 27th-32nd overall pick to dump salary. The Sharks’ future hinges on the chance to draft the next Ozzy Wiesblatt.

Seriously. It's as if the board is gonna get angry every time a player gets cap-dumped with a pick as if the Sharks should have kept half the roster open and spent barely to the floor.

 

[Hodge]

Even if they did that, they would have spent the cap money for picks long ago. You're acting as if they went out and spent 50 million this offseason.

Thank you. Somehow this is impossible for some people here to understand. When you look at the numbers Grier's moves this summer have actually been pretty close to cap neutral. He replaced Dahlen, Balcers, Burns and let's say Weatherby and Merkley (combined cap hit of $9.4M assuming a 825k QO for Dahlen) with Kunin, Lindblom, Sturm, Benning and Nutivaara (combined cap hit of $10M).

 

[Gecklund]

Even if they did that, they would have spent the cap money for picks long ago. You're acting as if they went out and spent 50 million this offseason.


Seriously. It's as if the board is gonna get angry every time a player gets capped dumped with a pick as if the Sharks should have kept half the roster open and spent barely to the floor.

In all fairness they did spend about 10M on players that play roles that could have been filled with ELCs that’s not including Balcers buyout or the fact they should have traded a goalie.

 

[mogambomoroo]

I think getting bunch of new NHL caliber players (depth/bottom 6) and getting rid of some old ones was part of needed change for the locker room that has lost 3 years in a row. I know it doesn't magically bring success, but I feel like refreshing the locker room is always good for the players long term. Also keeps prospect fighting for spots.

 

[TheBeard]

In all fairness they did spend about 10M on players that play roles that could have been filled with ELCs that’s not including Balcers buyout or the fact they should have traded a goalie.

Versus spending it on players most likely to either be ineffective, injured or bad locker room presences. All three have a negative effect on the young players suddenly finding themselves forced to play in a toxic environment when they're not ready to. Lindblom is a great story who is still young and a potential buy-low candidate. All the other guys are players making minimal money in which their cap hit wouldn't have brought back much more than a conditional 7th. I'd rather the culture shift now than try and find some extra steals in the third or fourth round in 2024. I don't care how deep this 2023 draft is, the reality still is 90% of the players won't sniff the NHL.

A lottery ticket or two some time down the road isn't worth sacrificing the up and coming talent we already have here. I do agree that we should have traded a goalie. I think Mike is holding onto that one for a desperate team though.

 

[Gecklund]

Versus spending it on players most likely to either be ineffective, injured or bad locker room presences. All three have a negative effect on the young players suddenly finding themselves forced to play in a toxic environment when they're not ready to. Lindblom is a great story who is still young and a potential buy-low candidate. All the other guys are players making minimal money in which their cap hit wouldn't have brought back much more than a conditional 7th. I'd rather the culture shift now than try and find some extra steals in the third or fourth round in 2024. I don't care how deep this 2023 draft is, the reality still is 90% of the players won't sniff the NHL.

A lottery ticket or two some time down the road isn't worth sacrificing the up and coming talent we already have here. I do agree that we should have traded a goalie. I think Mike is holding onto that one for a desperate team though.

What the hell are you even saying here? You totally lost me. why is the room suddenly “toxic?” These guys they brought in are not going to make them win games so that’s not it. Monahan has been said to be one of the best leaders. Or ya know we could have had Bjorkstrand. Or taken on Kassian or Mrazek for a ton of picks. There were options on guys who are known to be really good in the room.

 

[TheBeard]

What the hell are you even saying here? You totally lost me. why is the room suddenly “toxic?” These guys they brought in are not going to make them win games so that’s not it. Monahan has been said to be one of the best leaders. Or ya know we could have had Bjorkstrand. Or taken on Kassian or Mrazek for a ton of picks. There were options on guys who are known to be really good in the room.

I said versus spending on players either ineffective, injured OR bad locker room presences. What do you think the atmosphere would be among the players when you have guys like Erik Karlsson making 12 million a year knowing the team is purposely tanking by taking bloated contracts for picks and then watching him not give a shit? How fast do you think Meier would ask out if he knew the team's commitment was to mimicking the Coyotes? Hertl? It's a horrible message to send, one they can get away with in Montreal because at the end of the day the fans will always be there and players will always respect the Canadians' history.

 

[Anomie2029]

I think getting bunch of new NHL caliber players (depth/bottom 6) and getting rid of some old ones was part of needed change for the locker room that has lost 3 years in a row. I know it doesn't magically bring success, but I feel like refreshing the locker room is always good for the players long term. Also keeps prospect fighting for spots.

You're not entirely wrong...

But the Sharks have consistently changed their bottom 6 for the last three seasons:
2019-20 Season: Goodrow, Sorenson, Melker, Gambrell, Noesen, Kellman, Suomela, Marleau.
2020-21 Season: Donato, Balcers, Leonard, Gambrell, Nieto, Gabriel, Sorenson, Gregor
2021-22 Season: Bonino, Cogliano, Balcers, Nieto, Weatherby, Reedy, Viel, Gregor

There is literally no one from the 2019-20 season bottom six that are still in the team.

Do you know where the problem with the Sharks is? Vlasic, Couture, Karlsson, Labanc, Ferraro, Burns.
It's the core that's not getting it done and needs to change. It's going to take time. Moving Burns is the first step.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You don’t seem to understand basic math so let me repeat myself. You can undo all of Grier’s signings/acquisitions and replace those players with guys making league minimum and the Sharks still wouldn’t have enough cap space to add Monahan. That has always been my point. I just happen to also think it’s not a big deal because taking on cap dumps for late picks is pretty inconsequential.

There were other choices that could’ve been made to make the room needed. Please stop pretending like that isn’t the case just to make a point that you’ll flip on the moment it becomes convenient to do so.

 

[Hodge]

There were other choices that could’ve been made to make the room needed. Please stop pretending like that isn’t the case just to make a point that you’ll flip on the moment it becomes convenient to do so.

What other realistic choices could have been made by a guy dropped into his role two days before the draft? Enlighten me.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

What other realistic choices could have been made by a guy dropped into his role two days before the draft? Enlighten me.

A lion’s share of the dollars could’ve been created by buying out Labanc. That with not signing Sturm or trading for Kunin would’ve opened up the cap space. Consider yourself enlightened.

 

[Hodge]

A lion’s share of the dollars could’ve been created by buying out Labanc. That with not signing Sturm or trading for Kunin would’ve opened up the cap space. Consider yourself enlightened.

So you want the Sharks to eat $5.5M of dead Labanc money over four years in addition to Monahan’s $6.3M just to acquire a conditional, protected 2026 1st rounder? Oh and there’s no guarantee Calgary even makes this trade in division, especially when we know they had the ability to send the pick to an Eastern team. I’m glad you’re not the GM.

 

[OrrNumber4]

There's a thread about Dahlen on the main boards, and in it, there's a link to the reactions of Senators fans when they traded him for Burrows. Look at how poorly that aged. We overrate picks/prospects too much.

 

[seroes]

A lion’s share of the dollars could’ve been created by buying out Labanc. That with not signing Sturm or trading for Kunin would’ve opened up the cap space. Consider yourself enlightened.

All of that dead cap isn't worth it. At this point we just have to ride out Labanc and hope he is able recoup some trade value. Even if its just a late round pick at next year's trade deadline. While I'm not exactly happy with the signings, that does not mean we should hurt years when we could actually be able to use that cap space for something.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

We need more swedes.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

So you want the Sharks to eat $5.5M of dead Labanc money over four years in addition to Monahan’s $6.3M just to acquire a conditional, protected 2026 1st rounder? Oh and there’s no guarantee Calgary even makes this trade in division, especially when we know they had the ability to send the pick to an Eastern team. I’m glad you’re not the GM.

I really don't give a shit if you're glad I'm not the GM. This isn't a real response. The goal of the Sharks should be to acquire as many future assets as it can acquire even if it means eating some salary. Delaying that for any stupid reason is only delaying the inevitable. Of course there's no guarantee they make the trade in the division but chances are they very much do. The cap space is what's important to them. Not where Monahan and a late 1st may go to.

All of that dead cap isn't worth it. At this point we just have to ride out Labanc and hope he is able recoup some trade value. Even if its just a late round pick at next year's trade deadline. While I'm not exactly happy with the signings, that does not mean we should hurt years when we could actually be able to use that cap space for something.

I'd rather pay for a late 1st than get whatever trade value Labanc may muster next offseason or the trade deadline in a couple years that will be significantly less than that. And I'm sorry but we're not going to be able to use that cap space for something that will help us compete. This team isn't competing in four years either. The team is already eating dead cap space for the time period that a Labanc buyout would encompass. I think we all should know by now that this team won't be competitive indefinitely until they actually find a meaningful player to build around.