2020-21 Around the League part IV

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Where did we leave off? Arizona is a mess, but is Ottawa more of a mess? Why does Carolina have three PPG centers? When do the Penguins decide to gift us Crosby? All this and more coming right up!

Click to read more...

 

[Balthazar]

Can someone paraphrase the article for the pheasants like me that don’t have an Athletic subscription?

Headlines:

 

[S E P H]

I think the biggest problem with Arizona is that the original owners decided to put the rink in the middle of a suburb like Ottawa than in the heart of the city. Now I don't know if that was a logical move at the time because I've never been to Arizona, but that's what they have to overcome. That said, I dislike seeing posts about how we have to clearly move them because they're in a bad situation in the present. Why can't we allow them the time so they can work out of it? Why is it that in every bad situation, the person's first reaction is to fix the problem by essentially "giving up"? I don't doubt that there has been a lot of iffiness surrounding that organisation and if there is a better owner out there that's willing to buy them causes them to move then so be it (that's what I said when Jets moved from Atlanta). However, the owner of the Coyotes is still the owner who wants to keep them there and I respect his decision.

 

[hockeyfish]

I think the biggest problem with Arizona is that the original owners decided to put the rink in the middle of a suburb like Ottawa than in the heart of the city. Now I don't know if that was a logical move at the time because I've never been to Arizona, but that's what they have to overcome. That said, I dislike seeing posts about how we have to clearly move them because they're in a bad situation in the present. Why can't we allow them the time so they can work out of it? Why is it that in every bad situation, the person's first reaction is to fix the problem by essentially "giving up"? I don't doubt that there has been a lot of iffiness surrounding that organisation and if there is a better owner out there that's willing to buy them change causes them to move then so be it (that's what I said when Jets moved from Atlanta). However, the owner of the Coyotes is still the owner who wants to keep them there and I respect his decision.

This has been going on for many many years. How much more time do they need.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I think the biggest problem with Arizona is that the original owners decided to put the rink in the middle of a suburb like Ottawa than in the heart of the city. Now I don't know if that was a logical move at the time because I've never been to Arizona, but that's what they have to overcome. That said, I dislike seeing posts about how we have to clearly move them because they're in a bad situation in the present. Why can't we allow them the time so they can work out of it? Why is it that in every bad situation, the person's first reaction is to fix the problem by essentially "giving up"? I don't doubt that there has been a lot of iffiness surrounding that organisation and if there is a better owner out there that's willing to buy them change causes them to move then so be it (that's what I said when Jets moved from Atlanta). However, the owner of the Coyotes is still the owner who wants to keep them there and I respect his decision.

I mean it hasn’t worked for 20 some years and has done nothing but lose money. I get that if it works it will be somewhat beneficial but at some point there has to be some sort of signs of not being a toxic money dump.

 

[S E P H]

This has been going on for many many years. How much more time do they need.

Each owner deserves his fair share of time because each is his/her own unique individual.

 

[hockeyfish]

Each owner deserves his fair share of time because each is his/her own unique individual.

It's not just about one owner, but a string of owners who have all failed.

 

[cinchronicity]

I think the biggest problem with Arizona is that the original owners decided to put the rink in the middle of a suburb like Ottawa than in the heart of the city. Now I don't know if that was a logical move at the time because I've never been to Arizona, but that's what they have to overcome. That said, I dislike seeing posts about how we have to clearly move them because they're in a bad situation in the present. Why can't we allow them the time so they can work out of it? Why is it that in every bad situation, the person's first reaction is to fix the problem by essentially "giving up"? I don't doubt that there has been a lot of iffiness surrounding that organisation and if there is a better owner out there that's willing to buy them change causes them to move then so be it (that's what I said when Jets moved from Atlanta). However, the owner of the Coyotes is still the owner who wants to keep them there and I respect his decision.

Your Atlanta metaphor is apt. I had season tix for Hawks / Thrashers before the move to Colorado. All of the Atlanta stadiums at the time were on the far south end of the city, while most season ticket holders lived an hour north. This was fine for Sunday football, in a football state, but it sucked for weekday baseball / hoops / hockey games. The Braves finally moved to Vinings and the attendance spiked immediately, as the stadium was now near the fans. Not to mention easy mass transit access. It is almost the same situation in Az. Getting from Phoenix proper to Glendale is no walk in the park. And while they built a football stadium across the street 8 years after Gila River Center, that is still a day long Sunday tailgate, not an after work hour long trip to see a game at 6:00 local time.

 

[Gatorbait19]

I think the biggest problem with Arizona is that the original owners decided to put the rink in the middle of a suburb like Ottawa than in the heart of the city.

While I don’t portend to know the AZ market, Im not so sure about that frankly.

Looking at this from South Florida/Panthers perspective - the panthers would still have trouble drawing people regardless of where the stadium was/is located. The Marlins and Heat stadiums are both in much better locations, but they still have problems filling seats.

A lot has to do with the makeup of the fan base, and the fact that the majority of South FL residents are transplants and not originally from the area. Id assume Arizona is similar in that regard.

Fact of the matter is these 2 fan bases are completely apathetic towards hockey, and the people that are actually hockey fans already have their teams.

The only way hockey will ever work in those markets long term is if the league and those teams do a much much better job growing the game at the lower levels, something that hasn’t been done properly.

 

[hockeyfish]

While I don’t portend to know the AZ market, Im not so sure about that frankly.

Looking at this from South Florida/Panthers perspective - the panthers would still have trouble drawing people regardless of where the stadium was/is located. The Marlins and Heat stadiums are both in much better locations, but they still have problems filling seats.

A lot has to do with the makeup of the fan base, and the fact that the majority of South FL residents are transplants and not originally from the area. Id assume Arizona is similar in that regard.

Fact of the matter is these 2 fan bases are completely apathetic towards hockey, and the people that are actually hockey fans already have their teams.

The only way hockey will ever work in those markets long term is if the league and those teams do a much much better job growing the game at the lower levels, something that hasn’t been done properly.

To add to this, the Suns and Diamondbacks both play downtown, and neither attracts many fans. The Suns are nearly at the bottom of the NBA. Phoenix in general is just a crappy sports town. It's sprawling, doesn't have a lot of high end corporate stuff, and lacks much identity.

Edit* by the way, you know what Arizona should do to turn the franchise around... Win.

 

[the_fan]

Move the Yotes to Quebec

 

[Pokecheque]

They put the deal in place for that Glendale rink at a time when the economy was booming and everyone thought the good times would last forever. I read that it's built on actual farmland, that's how far out in the sticks Glendale is. If cooler heads had prevailed, they likely would've settled with a less audacious project in Scottsdale, much more accessible to the main population center of the state.

I've said it before and I'll say it again--the Coyotes are doomed. Bettman keeps desperately trying to entice a longer and longer string of flaky-ass billionaires (or at least people who CLAIM they're billionaires) to prop up a franchise that continues to hemorrhage money because of inept management and even more inept ownership. And this latest dipshit makes Barroway look like a genius. Bettman keeps praying that he'll finally land a Jeff Vinik type who'll swoop in and save the Coyotes and Panthers like Vinik did in Tampa and I just don't think that guy is out there. Things were pretty bad in Tampa under Koules and Barrie but I don't think they were anywhere close to how bad they are in those two locales.

That Strang article notes that the NBA vetted Meruelo before he finalized a purchase of the Atlanta Hawks and found enough red flags to deny the deal. The NHL on the other hand couldn't wait to jump in be with him.

 

[Pokecheque]

To add to this, the Suns and Diamondbacks both play downtown, and neither attracts many fans. The Suns are nearly at the bottom of the NBA. Phoenix in general is just a crappy sports town. It's sprawling, doesn't have a lot of high end corporate stuff, and lacks much identity.

Edit* by the way, you know what Arizona should do to turn the franchise around... Win.

They were averaging over 18,000 near as I can tell at the height of the Steve Nash/Shawn Marion Era, so they'll come out to support a winner. They're not much different than Denver IMHO. It's likely an older demographic, but it's a viable sports market. The Coyotes would be in much better shape and enjoy a ton more support if they had a rink that wasn't out in the middle of nowhere and wasn't run by a series of idiots who had more money than sense.

 

[Richard88]

Move the Yotes to Quebec

I like the sound of the Quebec Coyotes

 

[UncleRisto]

What people don't understand is we're actually dealing with something very easy to deal with. You move the Coyotes to Kansas City, and they become the Kansas City Leafs.

 

[henchman21]

First off, you can't get an arena in any downtown city in Arizona because they are all suburbs. Every damn one of them.

@S E P H The Coyotes have been a massive string a failures, but I can't see it working due to the tainted brand. This might be a touch long... Richard Burke bought them and moved them to Winnipeg on the idea that he could get a downtown arena built and jumpstart hockey in the southwest. Bettman and Burke were good friends and devised this plan (even having to take it to court) to get it to go through. Once Burke got the Jets to Arizona, the deal with the Suns quickly turned sour because of the rent and they immediately started losing money. It wasn't a big deal at the time because Burke wanted his own arena anyway and America West was a terrible hockey venue. Burke was a great owner, but a terrible salesman with no real connections in the southwest. If he had maintained, things might be different now. He tried and failed over and over for years because he demanded to own the venue and the team while having public money paying for a large part of it. Eventually the only way forward was to sell. In comes Steve Ellman... he was a big time real estate developer in Phoenix (might still be IDK). He came to Bettman and promised he'd get a brand new hockey arena built and fund the team with the top of the league. Really, he was a huge snake oil salesman. He was deadset on Glendale because he owned the land, and it was central to his new suburban development. He never had any intention of actually funding the team. He just wanted a cornerstone for his big mall and to sell his overpriced McMansions... plus he got Glendale to pay for the arena. Now Ellman had a partner in crime for all of this, Jerry Moyes. Moyes and Ellman were big time partners in real estate development and had worked together for a long time. Moyes and Ellman had a big falling out somewhere in 2004/05 and they split and started attacking each other's businesses. Since they were co-owners of the Coyotes (and the development) and Ellman had already made plenty off this deal, the Coyotes were basically sold at a discount as a settlement. Moyes was really just a vindictive asshole and didn't care about owning the team. He just wanted to stick it to Ellman. Ellman was more than happy to give up controlling interest though due to the debt burden the team had taken on over the years. He basically washed his hands clean and made a few hundred million off the whole deal. Moyes was saddled with a lot of debt and a quasi bad lease if attendance struggled (which it did). He basically stripped everything to the bone and tried to sell the whole time he had the team. Eventually they started defaulting, signed an agreement with Bettman, then tried to sell the team to Balsille without the proper authority (he signed the over to Bettman and Bettman wanted to sell to Reinsdorf). That is when the NHL took over. It was a calamity of errors until 2013 when it came to a head and the NHL nearly moved the team to Seattle. Glendale caved and created an agreement with LeBanc's ownership group to keep the team in Glendale. Apparently it was within hours that Arizona was almost moved to Seattle. LeBanc's group was really just there to keep the team in Arizona as a holding until a real owner could be found. That is when Barroway stepped in. Barroway wasn't perfect, but he was actually a pretty good owner considering the recent past. He worked his ass off and actually had a really good deal to build an arena in the East Valley with ASU. It fell apart though due to politics... which was an overarching theme through all of this since 2009. Glendale was contractually obligated to share in losses/subsidize the team (which right or wrong doesn't matter). This caught the attention of a number of republicans the most popular of which, The Goldwater Institute, had latched onto as a huge issue. They fought Glendale at every turn for anything they were trying to do to appease the situation. It didn't matter if it was break the contract, absorb the loss, and let the team move... or if it was to agree to a deal to limit the damage. Goldwater fought them every step of the way. Even trying to kill IceArizona (LeBanc) and Barroway sales multiple times. When Barroway tied his arena to ASU, the Goldwater Institute jumped on it again and basically killed the funding that ASU would get politically. Barroway got really close to closing the deal, but without ASU he couldn't get the funding needed. He tried again with another downtown proposal, but it didn't get enough traction. Late 2018 he basically told Bettman he was over it and a new owner had to be found. That is when the wheels were in motion for this sale to Meruelo.

TLDR I think Barroway was really the last hope for the ownership situation in Arizona. He was really close to getting it all done, but politics got in the way. From there he couldn't get it to work and just didn't seem to have the drive to push again. I think if Barroway would have gotten his East Valley arena, he'd still be the owner and they'd have a fighting chance. Right now, the brand is too tainted, damaged politically, won't get any public funding, and now has a guy who has no clue what to do at the helm. I don't think hockey in Arizona will be dead forever, but I think this organization is simply too damaged at this point to recover. They have some big time enemies and Meruelo isn't capable enough to smooth this over.

 

[Metallo]

Headlines:

Thanks!

 

[CharlesPuck]

That is one hell of a wall of text.

 

[henchman21]

That is one hell of a wall of text.

I gave ya a short paragraph at the end!

 

[Avs_19]

That is one hell of a wall of text.

I'm sure @henchman24 put some thought into it but......

 

[The Abusement Park]

That is one hell of a wall of text.

I mean he did warn everyone

 

[Avs_19]

How are the Coyotes this bad at everything, including PR? All that time to come up with a strategy and their decision is to go after Strang and The Athletic? They didn't really even deny any of it in their statement.

 

[henchman21]

How are the Coyotes this bad at everything, including PR? All that time to come up with a strategy and their decision is to go after Strang and The Athletic? They didn't really even deny any of it in their statement.

Not only did they not deny it... they actually confirmed parts of it.

 

[Pokecheque]

Seriously...every time I read an article like this there's always some smug dipshit at the helm, and he got his education at Harvard.

 

[JLo217]

Thanks!

Just burn that franchise down. Start over.