2019 OPPF 1st round: Pittsburgh Professionals vs. Orlando Solar Bears
- Thread starter VanIslander
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Professionals
PP1: Hull - Crosby - Richard - MacInnis - Zubov
PP2: Tkachuk - Forsberg - Malone - Bentley - Fetisov
PK1: Madden - Alfredsson - Fetisov - Horton - Brimsek
PK2: Howe - Bourne - Schoenfeld - Johnson - Brimsek
vs.
Solar Bears
PP1: Ovechkin - Apps - Hextall - Robinson - Coffey
PP2: Naslund - Mikita - Middleton - Suchy - Ovechkin
PK1: Zetterberg - Poulin - Robinson - Coulter - Tretiak
PK2: Mikita - Dineen - Doughty - Conacher - Tretiak
PP1: Hull - Crosby - Richard - MacInnis - Zubov
PP2: Tkachuk - Forsberg - Malone - Bentley - Fetisov
PK1: Madden - Alfredsson - Fetisov - Horton - Brimsek
PK2: Howe - Bourne - Schoenfeld - Johnson - Brimsek
vs.
Solar Bears
PP1: Ovechkin - Apps - Hextall - Robinson - Coffey
PP2: Naslund - Mikita - Middleton - Suchy - Ovechkin
PK1: Zetterberg - Poulin - Robinson - Coulter - Tretiak
PK2: Mikita - Dineen - Doughty - Conacher - Tretiak
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
I don’t understand why the special teams are in a separate post. It’s not a huge inconvenience or anything, but I like to be able to look at the entire team set up at once
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Special teams play.is entirely diffetent than regular lines!
Compare team A's PP to team B's PK.
That is realistic and can provide insights into relative strengths and weaknesses.
Compare team A's PP to team B's PK.
That is realistic and can provide insights into relative strengths and weaknesses.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
I like to see it all at once so I can see how a player is being used (e.g. top pairing, 1st PP unit, 2nd PK unit)
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Offensive Abilities/Strategies
Toe Blake should absolutely love this roster. Primarily speaking, it's a 2 way line up, top to bottom. There are also numerous players who can legitimately play multiple positions. Syd Howe (LW/C), Doug Bentley (LW/C), Joe Malone (C/LW), Claude Giroux (C/LW), John Madden (C/LW), and Bob Bourne (LW/C/RW).
Blake can move Joe Malone up to the 1st or 2nd line LW spot for a few extra shifts if a bump in offensive output is needed. Both Howe and Bentley are very strong 2 way players who fit the mold of a strong 3C so this gives Blake great match up potential through a game, situation to situation.
Giroux has enough sandpaper/grit and all around ability to make a 4th line LW role work well. He also provides plenty offense to help in the top 6 if need be. Especially being a strong playmaking winger.
Madden can play anywhere in the bottom 6. He's the defensive stopper there and will move around as needed.
Bourne is a super utility player. Put him anywhere at F and he'll fit.
The Professionals also have a ton of speed and ability to be aggressive on the forecheck. Howe, Bentley, Forsberg, Tkachuk, Alfredsson, Giroux, Madden, Bourne, are going to make life hard on opposing defenders with a blend of speed, tenacity and physical edge in the corners/high traffic areas.
Line Breakdowns:
-Howe on the first line, allows Sid and Richard to work the cycle, create chaos on rushes, and not have to expend exuberant amounts of energy on the dirty work etc. Sid is blossoming into a strong defensive C, but Howe limits the need for that kind of usage. This line has everything you look for in a dominant scoring unit. I'd put this line up against any other line on any other team and not worry about it making noise, especially given Crosby/Richard are 2 elite postseason performers all time.
-Bentley and Forsberg give the 2nd line 2 extremely strong, 200 foot players. Which is good because the one guy on the roster who needs covered up is Brett Hull, and while he agreed to play Ken Hitchcocks defensive system in real life, and wasn't half bad at it, is still a below average defensive player at this level. Forsberg is an absolute wrecking ball everywhere, especially on the forecheck and in the high traffic areas. Bentley has elite speed and back checking ability so that gives Forsberg the green light to be the lines heavy lifter in the corners, which he excelled at in real life. The line features an elite goal scorer, an elite playmaker, and a strong all around offensive member. Strong offensive numbers for a 2nd unit but also above the mean defensive ability at 2 of the 3 spots.
-I love how the 3rd line came together. With the revelations by overpass on Joe Malone being a consistently responsible defensive C to go along with his elite offensive production, he provides a lethal 3rd line presence for Pittsburgh. Especially considering his wingers should help facilitate his goal scoring abilities. Alfredsson is a strong 2 way player. He's a terrific play maker and will hit anything and everything, all over the ice. Tkachuk is uber physical and brings an intimidation factor that will keep defenders on edge when handling the puck deep. Alfy and Chuk will create a lot of chances and space for Malone with their work in the corners and high danger areas. This is a line that will not have many defensive lapses and will absolutely score given they're likely to see a ton of favorable matchups against weaker defensive F units and 2nd/3rd defensive pairings. And as I mentioned earlier, Malone is perfectly capable of shifting up to the 2nd or 1st line LW spot because he, Bentley, and Howe are all interchangeable between LW and C.
-The 4th line is more geared towards defensive play with Madden and Bourne, but Giroux gives an element that most 4th lines don't have, and that is top 6 scoring ability. The great thing about this line is all 3 players can move around as needed. Giroux can play C with Madden shifting to LW. Bourne literally played all 3 positions for NY. The line has speed, physicality across the board (especially Madden) that should play well in a limited role.
When protecting a lead you're going to see Blake move some things around. Just one example of many combo's we can trot out due to our positional flexibility.
Thachuk-Crosby-Richard
Malone-Giroux-Hull
Bentley-Forsberg-Alfredsson (shadow/defensive/checking line with counter ability)
Howe-Madden-Bourne (more of a pure defensive group)
When behind or in need of an offensive spark? Here's one idea.
Howe-Crosby-Richard
Malone-Forsberg-Hull
Bentley-Giroux-Alfredsson
Thachuk-Madden-Bourne
The are numerous players who are rated extremely highly as postseason players on this roster. Richard, Crosby, Forsberg, Fetisov (since we're counting best on best international tournaments for non NHL euro's) are the obvious ones but other players who'd I'd certainly call above average (or better) in that regard are Hull, Howe, Malone, Bourne, MacInnis, Horton, Zubov.
Up and down the lineup you have proven big game players.
Other than the 2nd pairing, we're not going to be out skated, certainly not by any large margins.
This team is not going to be out muscled. Yet we're likely going to be in the box less than most other teams.
Each forward line has at least one strong to elite defensive presence.
The scoring depth on the Professionals is elite, comparatively speaking looking around the league, yet no line can be pointed and and said to be overly vulnerable from a defensiveness standpoint.
Defensive Abilities/Strategy
I was pleased with how everything played out on the blue line.
Fetisov-Horton is NASTY. Fetisov is one of those elite blue liners who doesn't really have a weakness to exploit. At his best he was in the conversation for best player in the world not named Gretzky. He was an elite skater, stud 2 way player, who unlike a lot of Soviets, had a real physical edge to his game. Horton, a right handed shot, is comfortably a #2 here and his abilities should play extremely well with Fetisov. He was considered by many to be the strongest player in the league (Howe and Hull said as much) and was a superb player in his own end. What's great is that while he was a crushing body checker and physical player through and through he was clean. Horton wasn't inept with the puck on his stick either so I'm not worried about him getting hemmed in, especially playing next to Slava and our strong 2 way F group who will almost always be in proper position to help out the blueliners. I think this pairing is a great fit from a stylistic standpoint and it provides a ton of physicality without the lunacy you'd see from somebody like a Shore or Cleghorn.
The 2nd pairing features MacInnis who could easily pass as a #2 in a 12 team league. Mac is one of the players I cite when arguing against Paul Coffey in that AM adapted his game as the league changed and he aged. He went from being an offensively dominant but middling defensive player into someone the Blues could count on being a stopper in their own end while retaining above average offensive output. Is it any wonder how he won a Norris at 35 and was a runner up at 39? Despite not getting a ton of chances to go deep into the playoffs he has one of the greatest performances ever by a Dman in postseason history, in 1989, when he led the tournament in assists, points, and game winning goals, capturing the Conn Smythe with Calgary. 160 points in 177 games is a strong bullet point as well. He's a below average skater but despite that was an elite passer and obviously possesses a bomb from anywhere he can wind up from. He's not going to be rushing the puck 100+ feet ala Fetisov, but Big Al is not a hindrance in getting the puck up the ice via smart passing primarily. Ching Johnson is a poor mans Tim Horton, hence the 2nd pairing here. He's still a top 40 Dman of all time in my book and provides a tremendous stay at home partner for MacInnis to jump up into the offensive zone when he sees fit.
Between my first and second pairings I feel I'm as strong or better than every other team when looking at the top 4. The top pairing can really do it all, and brings a high level of physicality without the unnecessary PIMs. While the second pairing is probably a below average skating unit, they are both extremely sound positional players (especially Johnson). MacInnis brings a different offensive look than Fetisov but like the top pair, this is another combo that will be very tough to play with for 60 minutes. I like our chances down in the trenches, clearing defenders away from the crease and limiting any rebound chances.
The 3rd pairing is solid. Nothing more, nothing less.
Goalies:
Brimsek is a below average starter here in a 12 team league, but given how long I was able to wait to get him, I feel good about the overall make up of my team. There are at least 3 teams that will have inferior goalies head to head. Brimsek is an underrated star of the 06 era. He's one of those guys who seems like he's not elite at any one thing, but strong across the board, both in regular season and postseason credentials. Given the defensive acumen in front of him, I feel confident he'll rise to the occasion.
Toe Blake should absolutely love this roster. Primarily speaking, it's a 2 way line up, top to bottom. There are also numerous players who can legitimately play multiple positions. Syd Howe (LW/C), Doug Bentley (LW/C), Joe Malone (C/LW), Claude Giroux (C/LW), John Madden (C/LW), and Bob Bourne (LW/C/RW).
Blake can move Joe Malone up to the 1st or 2nd line LW spot for a few extra shifts if a bump in offensive output is needed. Both Howe and Bentley are very strong 2 way players who fit the mold of a strong 3C so this gives Blake great match up potential through a game, situation to situation.
Giroux has enough sandpaper/grit and all around ability to make a 4th line LW role work well. He also provides plenty offense to help in the top 6 if need be. Especially being a strong playmaking winger.
Madden can play anywhere in the bottom 6. He's the defensive stopper there and will move around as needed.
Bourne is a super utility player. Put him anywhere at F and he'll fit.
The Professionals also have a ton of speed and ability to be aggressive on the forecheck. Howe, Bentley, Forsberg, Tkachuk, Alfredsson, Giroux, Madden, Bourne, are going to make life hard on opposing defenders with a blend of speed, tenacity and physical edge in the corners/high traffic areas.
Line Breakdowns:
-Howe on the first line, allows Sid and Richard to work the cycle, create chaos on rushes, and not have to expend exuberant amounts of energy on the dirty work etc. Sid is blossoming into a strong defensive C, but Howe limits the need for that kind of usage. This line has everything you look for in a dominant scoring unit. I'd put this line up against any other line on any other team and not worry about it making noise, especially given Crosby/Richard are 2 elite postseason performers all time.
-Bentley and Forsberg give the 2nd line 2 extremely strong, 200 foot players. Which is good because the one guy on the roster who needs covered up is Brett Hull, and while he agreed to play Ken Hitchcocks defensive system in real life, and wasn't half bad at it, is still a below average defensive player at this level. Forsberg is an absolute wrecking ball everywhere, especially on the forecheck and in the high traffic areas. Bentley has elite speed and back checking ability so that gives Forsberg the green light to be the lines heavy lifter in the corners, which he excelled at in real life. The line features an elite goal scorer, an elite playmaker, and a strong all around offensive member. Strong offensive numbers for a 2nd unit but also above the mean defensive ability at 2 of the 3 spots.
-I love how the 3rd line came together. With the revelations by overpass on Joe Malone being a consistently responsible defensive C to go along with his elite offensive production, he provides a lethal 3rd line presence for Pittsburgh. Especially considering his wingers should help facilitate his goal scoring abilities. Alfredsson is a strong 2 way player. He's a terrific play maker and will hit anything and everything, all over the ice. Tkachuk is uber physical and brings an intimidation factor that will keep defenders on edge when handling the puck deep. Alfy and Chuk will create a lot of chances and space for Malone with their work in the corners and high danger areas. This is a line that will not have many defensive lapses and will absolutely score given they're likely to see a ton of favorable matchups against weaker defensive F units and 2nd/3rd defensive pairings. And as I mentioned earlier, Malone is perfectly capable of shifting up to the 2nd or 1st line LW spot because he, Bentley, and Howe are all interchangeable between LW and C.
-The 4th line is more geared towards defensive play with Madden and Bourne, but Giroux gives an element that most 4th lines don't have, and that is top 6 scoring ability. The great thing about this line is all 3 players can move around as needed. Giroux can play C with Madden shifting to LW. Bourne literally played all 3 positions for NY. The line has speed, physicality across the board (especially Madden) that should play well in a limited role.
When protecting a lead you're going to see Blake move some things around. Just one example of many combo's we can trot out due to our positional flexibility.
Thachuk-Crosby-Richard
Malone-Giroux-Hull
Bentley-Forsberg-Alfredsson (shadow/defensive/checking line with counter ability)
Howe-Madden-Bourne (more of a pure defensive group)
When behind or in need of an offensive spark? Here's one idea.
Howe-Crosby-Richard
Malone-Forsberg-Hull
Bentley-Giroux-Alfredsson
Thachuk-Madden-Bourne
The are numerous players who are rated extremely highly as postseason players on this roster. Richard, Crosby, Forsberg, Fetisov (since we're counting best on best international tournaments for non NHL euro's) are the obvious ones but other players who'd I'd certainly call above average (or better) in that regard are Hull, Howe, Malone, Bourne, MacInnis, Horton, Zubov.
Up and down the lineup you have proven big game players.
Other than the 2nd pairing, we're not going to be out skated, certainly not by any large margins.
This team is not going to be out muscled. Yet we're likely going to be in the box less than most other teams.
Each forward line has at least one strong to elite defensive presence.
The scoring depth on the Professionals is elite, comparatively speaking looking around the league, yet no line can be pointed and and said to be overly vulnerable from a defensiveness standpoint.
Defensive Abilities/Strategy
I was pleased with how everything played out on the blue line.
Fetisov-Horton is NASTY. Fetisov is one of those elite blue liners who doesn't really have a weakness to exploit. At his best he was in the conversation for best player in the world not named Gretzky. He was an elite skater, stud 2 way player, who unlike a lot of Soviets, had a real physical edge to his game. Horton, a right handed shot, is comfortably a #2 here and his abilities should play extremely well with Fetisov. He was considered by many to be the strongest player in the league (Howe and Hull said as much) and was a superb player in his own end. What's great is that while he was a crushing body checker and physical player through and through he was clean. Horton wasn't inept with the puck on his stick either so I'm not worried about him getting hemmed in, especially playing next to Slava and our strong 2 way F group who will almost always be in proper position to help out the blueliners. I think this pairing is a great fit from a stylistic standpoint and it provides a ton of physicality without the lunacy you'd see from somebody like a Shore or Cleghorn.
The 2nd pairing features MacInnis who could easily pass as a #2 in a 12 team league. Mac is one of the players I cite when arguing against Paul Coffey in that AM adapted his game as the league changed and he aged. He went from being an offensively dominant but middling defensive player into someone the Blues could count on being a stopper in their own end while retaining above average offensive output. Is it any wonder how he won a Norris at 35 and was a runner up at 39? Despite not getting a ton of chances to go deep into the playoffs he has one of the greatest performances ever by a Dman in postseason history, in 1989, when he led the tournament in assists, points, and game winning goals, capturing the Conn Smythe with Calgary. 160 points in 177 games is a strong bullet point as well. He's a below average skater but despite that was an elite passer and obviously possesses a bomb from anywhere he can wind up from. He's not going to be rushing the puck 100+ feet ala Fetisov, but Big Al is not a hindrance in getting the puck up the ice via smart passing primarily. Ching Johnson is a poor mans Tim Horton, hence the 2nd pairing here. He's still a top 40 Dman of all time in my book and provides a tremendous stay at home partner for MacInnis to jump up into the offensive zone when he sees fit.
Between my first and second pairings I feel I'm as strong or better than every other team when looking at the top 4. The top pairing can really do it all, and brings a high level of physicality without the unnecessary PIMs. While the second pairing is probably a below average skating unit, they are both extremely sound positional players (especially Johnson). MacInnis brings a different offensive look than Fetisov but like the top pair, this is another combo that will be very tough to play with for 60 minutes. I like our chances down in the trenches, clearing defenders away from the crease and limiting any rebound chances.
The 3rd pairing is solid. Nothing more, nothing less.
Goalies:
Brimsek is a below average starter here in a 12 team league, but given how long I was able to wait to get him, I feel good about the overall make up of my team. There are at least 3 teams that will have inferior goalies head to head. Brimsek is an underrated star of the 06 era. He's one of those guys who seems like he's not elite at any one thing, but strong across the board, both in regular season and postseason credentials. Given the defensive acumen in front of him, I feel confident he'll rise to the occasion.
tony d
Registered User
Time for me to add some thoughts:
Coaching:
I think both our coaches are up there on a ranking of all time great coaches. Blake is better though but Arbour is in that next tier of all time great coaches. Whatever happens on the ice to either of our teams this series it won't be because of our coaches.
Forward Lines:
I really like how my 1st line came together. One of the best goal scorers ever in Ovechkin, a good playmaker in Apps, a power forward in Hextall. Should make for one of the best 1st lines in the league. You followed the same formula with yours. I really think the battle between Ovechkin and Richard will be fantastic to watch. Crosby and Apps as well should be fun. Even though this is fantasy Richard will be the best goal scorer Crosby's ever played with for such a long period. Howe and Hextall will do their thing but for me the battle of the 1st lines here will be Ovie/Richard and Crosby/Apps.
Our 2nd lines is a bit of a difference maker for me. I think picking Naslund, good as he was and playing for a weak franchise, was still a mistake on my part in picking him where I did. I'll make due as I have Mikita and Middleton on the line as well but if we are ranking players 1-6 for these lines Naslund is a very distant 6th. Your 2nd line of Bentley, Forsberg and Hull is as good a 2nd line as you can get here. Forsberg and Hull should be magic together as both are quite apt at playmaking and goal scoring respectively. You really did good in constructing your 2nd line.
For my 3rd line I chose to go for weak franchises as I went with Dallas (Benn), Buffalo (Perreault), and Ottawa (Heatley). I think in terms of scoring it's as good a 3rd line as any you'll get in these drafts. Heatley was more of a left winger but he should make due at right wing. Was very surprised to get Perreault where I did. Guy was a fantastic playmaking centre for a weak franchise in this. I figure he's behind Hasek for 2nd best Sabre ever. Benn will bring the muscle here as well as contributions on the score sheet. On your 3rd line you have Tkachuk, Malone, Alfredsson. Both Malone and Alfredsson are among my favorite players ever while Tkachuk is like Benn in that he'll provide your team with muscle and scoring as well.
For the 4th lines you went with Giroux, Madden and Bourne. Madden and Bourne are both excellent 4th liners in this but I have to question Giroux's place on a 4th line here. We know he's good offensively but just not sure he belongs on a 4th line that is seemingly defensive in nature. For my 4th line I went with Zetterberg, Poulin and Dineen. Zetterberg and Poulin will more than handle the defensive duties for the line. Dineen will be a good grinder. My team is at a disadvantage in some places here but on the 4th line I have an advantage.
I'll discuss the defense and goalie groups tomorrow.
Coaching:
I think both our coaches are up there on a ranking of all time great coaches. Blake is better though but Arbour is in that next tier of all time great coaches. Whatever happens on the ice to either of our teams this series it won't be because of our coaches.
Forward Lines:
I really like how my 1st line came together. One of the best goal scorers ever in Ovechkin, a good playmaker in Apps, a power forward in Hextall. Should make for one of the best 1st lines in the league. You followed the same formula with yours. I really think the battle between Ovechkin and Richard will be fantastic to watch. Crosby and Apps as well should be fun. Even though this is fantasy Richard will be the best goal scorer Crosby's ever played with for such a long period. Howe and Hextall will do their thing but for me the battle of the 1st lines here will be Ovie/Richard and Crosby/Apps.
Our 2nd lines is a bit of a difference maker for me. I think picking Naslund, good as he was and playing for a weak franchise, was still a mistake on my part in picking him where I did. I'll make due as I have Mikita and Middleton on the line as well but if we are ranking players 1-6 for these lines Naslund is a very distant 6th. Your 2nd line of Bentley, Forsberg and Hull is as good a 2nd line as you can get here. Forsberg and Hull should be magic together as both are quite apt at playmaking and goal scoring respectively. You really did good in constructing your 2nd line.
For my 3rd line I chose to go for weak franchises as I went with Dallas (Benn), Buffalo (Perreault), and Ottawa (Heatley). I think in terms of scoring it's as good a 3rd line as any you'll get in these drafts. Heatley was more of a left winger but he should make due at right wing. Was very surprised to get Perreault where I did. Guy was a fantastic playmaking centre for a weak franchise in this. I figure he's behind Hasek for 2nd best Sabre ever. Benn will bring the muscle here as well as contributions on the score sheet. On your 3rd line you have Tkachuk, Malone, Alfredsson. Both Malone and Alfredsson are among my favorite players ever while Tkachuk is like Benn in that he'll provide your team with muscle and scoring as well.
For the 4th lines you went with Giroux, Madden and Bourne. Madden and Bourne are both excellent 4th liners in this but I have to question Giroux's place on a 4th line here. We know he's good offensively but just not sure he belongs on a 4th line that is seemingly defensive in nature. For my 4th line I went with Zetterberg, Poulin and Dineen. Zetterberg and Poulin will more than handle the defensive duties for the line. Dineen will be a good grinder. My team is at a disadvantage in some places here but on the 4th line I have an advantage.
I'll discuss the defense and goalie groups tomorrow.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
My general overview of the match up:
Coaching:
-Pittsburgh enjoys a slight edge here. Nothing more, nothing less.
Forwards:
-Both of the first lines are very well structured and should gel nicely, but the advantage Ovechkin gives Orlando at LW is quickly swallowed up by the large advantage Crosby and Richard have over Apps and Hextall. I like both lines honestly but Pittsburgh is simply stronger overall.
-The 2nd line match up is a lot like the 1st. Orlando has a solid advantage at C (Mikita vs Forsberg, who are both pretty damn similar in style btw) but the wings are both large advantages for the Proff's (Bentley/Hull vs Naslund/MIddleton). I also really like the postseason advantage Pitt has here. Forsberg is an elite postseason player, hull well above average if not good. Bentley is sort of an N/A because he didn't get a lot of chances (17 points in 23 games). Mikita was probably above average as a postseason player but he's not Forsberg. And Naslund/Middleton are nowhere near Hull.
-3rd line is well.....again, like the 1st 2. Malone>Perrault and Alfy>Heatley. I'd actually take Benn over Kkachuk now. Benn is a sneaky solid bottom 6'er in these types of drafts. Overall the Pittsburgh line is simply better.
-4th line. Well this one goes Orlando. Zetterberg honestly should be up on the 3rd line but he's elite in this role. Poulin is a nice defensive C. Would be cool to see him and Madden trade some checks/blows (even though they'd probably never be on the ice at the same time haha).
-Overall:
-I simply think Pittsburgh is stronger across the top 9. When you add it up, is a pretty sizable advantage as well IMO. You have elite playoff performers on the Pittsburgh team in Richard, Crosby, Forsberg and I'd say Fetisov. Other above the bar players include Howe, Hull, Malone, Madden, Bourne, Horton, MacInnis, Johnson, Zubov and Brimsek. Orlando has Apps, and Robinson is on that elite edge. But then in drops off a lot more than Pitt.
Defense:
-1st pairing is honestly a wash just based on rankings. Fetisov is better than Robinson but Coffey (i don't think so) is largely thought of as better than Horton. BUT, the Pittsburgh pair is a MUCH stronger defensive duo. Either Fetisov or Horton can play elite defensive hockey, whereas Robinson is going to have to carry that load for Orlando on his own shoulders. And while he's elite defensively he's not Fetisov/Horton. Orland will produce more offensive with their pair but it won't be near enough to offset the defensive ability between the two.
-2nd pairing is a solid advantage for Pittsburgh. MacInnis>>Doughty. Johnson>Suchy. Both are good offensively, although I'd trust Mac and Johnson more defensively than Such/Doughty.
-3r pairing swings back to Orlando. Conacher and Duncan are collectively better than the Pittsburgh duo.
Overall:
-1st line is a wash, Pitt has a solid advantage looking at 2nd pairs and that trumps the advantage Orlando has on the 3rd pairing.
Goalies:
-Tretiak is generally ranked 1 spot ahead of Brimsek all time so this is a very slight edge for Orlando.
Special Teams:
-PP is all Pittsburgh. Better 1st and 2nd units. The Prof's 1st unit has snipers on both sides, arguably the greatest point shot in history, a high end power play QB and one of most creative players in history to orchestrate it all.
The Pitt 2nd unit is better at F and while Ovechkin/Suchy (Fetisov/Bentley is just as good) is very nice, Ovi will be tired and a tired F playing the blueline on the PP is a recipe for disaster.
Our PK 1's are really very close. Madden and Poulin are washes. I think Zetterberg is slightly better on the kill than Alfy. But Fetisov-Horton is simply a more dominating duo over Robinson-Duncan. Very narrow advantage in net for Orlando.
I think the 2nd PK unit from Pittsburgh is clearly better. Was Mikita as good as Howe killing penalties? I don't think so and I know Bourne was better than Dineen. And I'd certainly take Schoenfeld and Johnson (both elite IMO) over Doughty/Conacher.
Final Call:
Honestly, other than a very slight edge in net, I see Orlando trailing Pittsburgh across the board otherwise. Tony, I really like the fit/mix of players you put together. I just see my coach and squad deeper and more equipped to win the big games.
Coaching:
-Pittsburgh enjoys a slight edge here. Nothing more, nothing less.
Forwards:
-Both of the first lines are very well structured and should gel nicely, but the advantage Ovechkin gives Orlando at LW is quickly swallowed up by the large advantage Crosby and Richard have over Apps and Hextall. I like both lines honestly but Pittsburgh is simply stronger overall.
-The 2nd line match up is a lot like the 1st. Orlando has a solid advantage at C (Mikita vs Forsberg, who are both pretty damn similar in style btw) but the wings are both large advantages for the Proff's (Bentley/Hull vs Naslund/MIddleton). I also really like the postseason advantage Pitt has here. Forsberg is an elite postseason player, hull well above average if not good. Bentley is sort of an N/A because he didn't get a lot of chances (17 points in 23 games). Mikita was probably above average as a postseason player but he's not Forsberg. And Naslund/Middleton are nowhere near Hull.
-3rd line is well.....again, like the 1st 2. Malone>Perrault and Alfy>Heatley. I'd actually take Benn over Kkachuk now. Benn is a sneaky solid bottom 6'er in these types of drafts. Overall the Pittsburgh line is simply better.
-4th line. Well this one goes Orlando. Zetterberg honestly should be up on the 3rd line but he's elite in this role. Poulin is a nice defensive C. Would be cool to see him and Madden trade some checks/blows (even though they'd probably never be on the ice at the same time haha).
-Overall:
-I simply think Pittsburgh is stronger across the top 9. When you add it up, is a pretty sizable advantage as well IMO. You have elite playoff performers on the Pittsburgh team in Richard, Crosby, Forsberg and I'd say Fetisov. Other above the bar players include Howe, Hull, Malone, Madden, Bourne, Horton, MacInnis, Johnson, Zubov and Brimsek. Orlando has Apps, and Robinson is on that elite edge. But then in drops off a lot more than Pitt.
Defense:
-1st pairing is honestly a wash just based on rankings. Fetisov is better than Robinson but Coffey (i don't think so) is largely thought of as better than Horton. BUT, the Pittsburgh pair is a MUCH stronger defensive duo. Either Fetisov or Horton can play elite defensive hockey, whereas Robinson is going to have to carry that load for Orlando on his own shoulders. And while he's elite defensively he's not Fetisov/Horton. Orland will produce more offensive with their pair but it won't be near enough to offset the defensive ability between the two.
-2nd pairing is a solid advantage for Pittsburgh. MacInnis>>Doughty. Johnson>Suchy. Both are good offensively, although I'd trust Mac and Johnson more defensively than Such/Doughty.
-3r pairing swings back to Orlando. Conacher and Duncan are collectively better than the Pittsburgh duo.
Overall:
-1st line is a wash, Pitt has a solid advantage looking at 2nd pairs and that trumps the advantage Orlando has on the 3rd pairing.
Goalies:
-Tretiak is generally ranked 1 spot ahead of Brimsek all time so this is a very slight edge for Orlando.
Special Teams:
-PP is all Pittsburgh. Better 1st and 2nd units. The Prof's 1st unit has snipers on both sides, arguably the greatest point shot in history, a high end power play QB and one of most creative players in history to orchestrate it all.
The Pitt 2nd unit is better at F and while Ovechkin/Suchy (Fetisov/Bentley is just as good) is very nice, Ovi will be tired and a tired F playing the blueline on the PP is a recipe for disaster.
Our PK 1's are really very close. Madden and Poulin are washes. I think Zetterberg is slightly better on the kill than Alfy. But Fetisov-Horton is simply a more dominating duo over Robinson-Duncan. Very narrow advantage in net for Orlando.
I think the 2nd PK unit from Pittsburgh is clearly better. Was Mikita as good as Howe killing penalties? I don't think so and I know Bourne was better than Dineen. And I'd certainly take Schoenfeld and Johnson (both elite IMO) over Doughty/Conacher.
Final Call:
Honestly, other than a very slight edge in net, I see Orlando trailing Pittsburgh across the board otherwise. Tony, I really like the fit/mix of players you put together. I just see my coach and squad deeper and more equipped to win the big games.
tony d
Registered User
Time for my thoughts on the defense and goalies:
Our 1st pairings are a wash. Fetisov is better than Robinson and Coffey is better than Horton. I think it depends on how much defensive work Robinson has to do to make up for Coffey. Still I like having Coffey on my team along with Ovie, that should be fun.
Our 2nd pairings are built with the same mind set of 1 guy being defensive and the other offensive. You have an advtanage here for sure. Ching Johnson was always a guy I wanted to get in an ATD but never could. He should work well with MacInnis. My 2nd pairing should be good as well. Doughty is probably more of a defensive guy than offensive but he can chip in offensively as well. Suchy is one of the better defensemen in Czech history so that's good. Still an advantage here to you.
Our 3rd pairings: Mine is more of a shutdown pairing with Duncan and Conacher. You went with defense/offense in Schoenfeld/Zubov. Zubov's defensive game improved when he got to Dallas but is it enough for a shutdown pairing in this? I don't know. I probably matchup my 1st line vs. your 3rd pairing so having Zubov there could be a bit of a disadvantage for you and work to my advtanage.
Goalies:
Tretiak and Brimsek are thisclose all time if you ask me. So the goalie matchup is pretty equal here, maybe a slight edge to me but not by much.
I'll be back tomorrow to debate coaching, special teams and offer some final thoughts.
Our 1st pairings are a wash. Fetisov is better than Robinson and Coffey is better than Horton. I think it depends on how much defensive work Robinson has to do to make up for Coffey. Still I like having Coffey on my team along with Ovie, that should be fun.
Our 2nd pairings are built with the same mind set of 1 guy being defensive and the other offensive. You have an advtanage here for sure. Ching Johnson was always a guy I wanted to get in an ATD but never could. He should work well with MacInnis. My 2nd pairing should be good as well. Doughty is probably more of a defensive guy than offensive but he can chip in offensively as well. Suchy is one of the better defensemen in Czech history so that's good. Still an advantage here to you.
Our 3rd pairings: Mine is more of a shutdown pairing with Duncan and Conacher. You went with defense/offense in Schoenfeld/Zubov. Zubov's defensive game improved when he got to Dallas but is it enough for a shutdown pairing in this? I don't know. I probably matchup my 1st line vs. your 3rd pairing so having Zubov there could be a bit of a disadvantage for you and work to my advtanage.
Goalies:
Tretiak and Brimsek are thisclose all time if you ask me. So the goalie matchup is pretty equal here, maybe a slight edge to me but not by much.
I'll be back tomorrow to debate coaching, special teams and offer some final thoughts.
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
Granted that Pittsburgh got its third-seed, home-ice advantage and (presumably) winning record in the Regular Season on the merits-- and also granted that the following won't be a huge difference-maker... but there really needs to be some push-back against the following casual assertion:
I'll pass out an understatement-award for this one:
Suchý brings offensive punch from the second-pairing, as surely as Coffey does from the first. Oh, and by-the-way, Suchý's also a proficient, well-documented shot-blocker. [Now that it's on my mind, so's Lionel Conacher.] There are nice, occasionally unconventional skill-sets with Orlando's three defensive pairings.
I don't think so.
I'll pass out an understatement-award for this one:
Actually, I consider him the finest non-NHL-Euro Defenseman not named Fetisov. And here, he's being compared to someone who basically sketches into a slot in the top three-dozen N.A. Defensemen in Ching Johnson. Okayyy...
Suchý brings offensive punch from the second-pairing, as surely as Coffey does from the first. Oh, and by-the-way, Suchý's also a proficient, well-documented shot-blocker. [Now that it's on my mind, so's Lionel Conacher.] There are nice, occasionally unconventional skill-sets with Orlando's three defensive pairings.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 48,759
- 29,265
Pittsburgh's top 4 are all quality defenders, which means that everyone can play their best game. Larry Robinson - quality #1 D, is going to be somewhat neutralized simply by having to cover for Coffey. He's certainly capable, but Robinson is a Norris-winner and effective even strength offensive threat that's going to spend 90% of the time feeling nervous about jumping into the play for risk of a breakaway going the other way.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Casual assertion?
Defensemen rankings have long been discussed on this forum. Ching Johnson is routinely inside the top 40 players at his position, all time. Is Suchy? Even IF he's a wash with Johnson that doesn't even remotely make up for the gap that exists between Doughty and MacInnis. Although maybe you think they're even as well, given your less than enthusiastic impression of Mac from previous postings. Doughty is a guy, who you strip away his best 2 years, and he's pretty pedestrian (his playoffs for example are PUTRID outside his 2 cup years). He and Weber are 2 of the most overrated defenders in the game today but that's an argument for another time.
Either way, it doesn't really matter because Pittsburgh has the better top 4 (not to mention clearly superior F group, both in terms of talent but also fit, and flexibility), not only because of talent, but because I don't have defensively inept players (Coffey) logging huge minutes. My top 4 is balanced well, provides a ton of offense, but more importantly understands defensive responsibilities and positioning. But you loathe Crosby, and a few others on my roster so I don't expect to get any positive remarks from you in particular, especially after calling you out on your obvious anti Crosby bias in the top 100 project (diving...really? Crosby manifested a diving culture on Canadian youth??? You literally used THAT as a reason to downgrade Crosby as if diving was really a problem for him or impacted his on ice play and subsequent results. Whining was his real issue as a teenager btw). That's the difference between me and most other diehard fans of a certain player. I have no problem pointing out deficiencies in a players game. But I can spot an agenda a mile away. Just like your agenda in picking a team or 2 here and advocating from a "neutral" position. IF I advance I absolutely expect to see you posting in the subsequent matchup against BB I believe it would be given your previous remarks.
And furthermore, I'm going to make myself very clear.
You're not a part of this project. Just as Sturm wasn't last year in the main ATD. And yet, something I've really picked up on and noticed is how outsiders start showing up when the draft concludes and play favorites. They start advocating for teams, often very slyly (you did this during the regular season voting with a few teams in particular about byes) and it isn't lost on me. Others might not see it, but I do. And it f***ing irritates the hell out of me. You have people who invest time and energy into this and then end up "fighting" not only the other GM's in debates but outsides, often very recognizable names on the forums. Outsiders, who don't draft, often don't even comment (or sparsely so) throughout the entirety of the draft.
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
I believe that there are enough posts where you bring value to the discussion that they can be quoted to the advantage of all of us. I know I've had some instances where I can check out your posts and do a 'QFT' thing, e.g.: NOT this one:
... but this one:
Applying the advice in the latter should be an aid in helping you deal with the former.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I don't think you understand how thick skin works and clearly lack the context of that comment.
My issue with you (and others in the past) is that you come out of nowhere and start putting your opinion out there, pimping specific teams. This happens almost every year, at least as long as I've been involved here, which dates back to 2014. And I'm not someone who thinks I should have won any of the years, minus 2018.
I was very close to nailing the regular season rankings here and already sent Theo my prediction on the finals and who will win. This is why I've long said there is no point in having preliminary rounds. Just let the top 4 teams do battle and be done with it. I'd rather people just be honest about the process which is that the regular season results are almost always going to hold throughout the entirety of the postseason voting. Why are people going to change their minds a few weeks later after they already picked the best teams, top to bottom?
But either way, the veterans here don't need armchair GMs showing up to push a narrative. Debate and discussion should be between the GMs involved unless one or more are MIA. Which is clearly not the case here.
Every year some big name shows up to pump a roster or two without actually taking the time to assassinate or contribute to the draft process.
That has nothing to do with having thick/thin skin.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 48,759
- 29,265
I disagree with this portion, for the record. Last ATD I didn't make the playoffs (not shockingly - my team was... oddly constructed). This time I did, and whether I end up in the Final Four or not, I'm enjoying these preliminary rounds because I get to talk about my team more.
It's less about whether I'm going to win and more about enjoying the process.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I agree 100% with what your saying as far as enjoying the process. I do, as much as anyone, otherwise I wouldn't do it. I can't tell you how many hours I've invested into digging up old newspaper clippings and general research but it's substantial (which is rewarding because I've expanded my limited knowledge of hockey history into a passable level of knowledge, with still much to learn). Obviously the strategy of the draft itself is appealing. I think the post draft process is too long, especially all these years later, but that's just one man's opinion.
It just sucks when you have people show up out of the blue to push certain agendas. I hope it's not orchestrated.
I'm not TRYING to be an ass here or any year when I've brought this up. But last year you had Sturm (a lawyer in the real world) essentially doing all the heavy lifting for RB's team in the debate portion of the process. That's asinine, plain and simple. People who aren't involved in the draft should NEVER be taking the place of the GM when it comes to making arguments for or against a team, other than in the event a GM goes MIA. Then it doesn't bother me.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Just looking at peak, Suchy absolutely was the best pre-Fetisov non-NHL Euro, and it isn't close. Heck, Suchy's peak season was every bit as good as anything Fetisov ever did. But his peak was just so short - outside of about 3 years, he isn't even an ATD-worthy player. What does that mean? Suchy is just such a tough guy to evaluate.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
The problem with Suchy relative to Fetisov is competition. It's a night and day difference, no? Not only domestic but internationally as well. And as you said his peak is 3 years. That is shorter than Dit Clapper as a defensemen. In this type of game I tend to care more about peak than longevity but as you said, Suchy's is so short, does it not diminish his value somewhat relative to others in the same ballpark?
Ching Johnson is one of the all time great defensive first dmen. Underappreciated and better than Conacher who played at the same time. Johnson didn't start playing pro hockey until he was 28, AS nods didn't start getting handed out until his 5th year in the league yet he was a 4 time postseason AS (consecutive) form ages 32-35 and came extremely close to winning the Hart trophy (Morenz) in 1932. One just has to read the thorough bio's out there on him to know you're getting a rock star defensively speaking, and certainly one of the toughest SOB's in the game at the time. Very physical but not nearly as dirty as some of his peers.
To be honest, I don't think Suchy-Doughty is that great of a fit. I don't view either as plus defensively at this level. Neither are below average but it's a 2nd pairing that I think can be exploited by explosive offensive units. Same with the first pair (Robinson/Coffey). There are simply more holes to exploit in the top 4 of Orlando….IMHO.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Dang...
I was pretty sure about which'd win, but now, after reading this thread, i'm at a pause...
I was pretty sure about which'd win, but now, after reading this thread, i'm at a pause...
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Batis
Registered User
I definitely agree with most of this post but regarding the bolded is it not rather about 5 years? Sure 67/68-69/70 may have been his true peak but I would say that his extended peak lasted for 5 seasons from 66/67 to 70/71.
66/67: Suchy was voted the top hockey player in Czechoslovakia by the daily newspaper Mlada Fronta.
67/68: Was again voted the top hockey player in Czechoslovakia by Mlada Fronta. Additionally Stadion Magazine called Suchy clearly the best hockey player of that season in Czechoslovakia. Also led all defencemen in the media vote at the 1968 Olympics.
68/69: Won the Czechoslovak golden stick during the first year of that awards existence and was also voted the top player in Europe. Was again first among defencemen in the media vote at the 1969 WHC and this time he also won the Directorate award. Additionally he led the Czechoslovakian league in scoring.
69/70: Won the Czechoslovak golden stick again and led all defencemen in the media vote at the WHC.
70/71: Suchy again led all defencemen in the media vote at the WHC and won the Directorate award. He was also a close runner-up in that years Golden stick voting.
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