WJC: 2018 Russia Roster Talk

[MaxV]

Jeez guys, so extreme. They lost a close game to tournament favorite.

Relax.

 

[Peter25]

Jeez guys, so extreme. They lost a close game to tournament favorite.

Relax.

We should not relax. We saw how the CHL-players who were supposed to lead this team and who were the most talented players from this age group flopped and had lost their skills. Russia can't afford to lose its best players from each age group like this.

 

[MaxV]

Guys keep in mind also that Russia didn't have its top 2 Ds in the tournament and this class of defensemen is too shallow to overcome that.

But is it really a bad thing that they were missing their top Ds the last 2 years because they were in NHL? I don't think so.

 

[RossiyaSport]

RU hockey leadership is finally waking up and talking much more openly of curtailing this practice, keeping RU kids at home, cracking down on predatory agents etc. Much less RU players were taken in the last export draft, and its clear that NHL gms are now hip to this problem because the CHL guys drop like a rock in the draft and kids who stay in RU are going earlier.

Much more needs to be done but I feel its at least moving in the right direction.

This particular WJC I think was a combination of not a strong defensive group, a bit weaker goalie compared to previous years, and no Kaprizov type player.

 

[Peter25]

It is not only about this tournament but a very long trend.

I started watching this tournament in 1999. That was the year Russia won. I remember there were only one or two players in Russian team who played in the CHL. One of them was Denis Shvidki who was supposed to be the next star in the Russian hockey. I watched Shvidki (I believe he played with Maxim Afinogenov and Artem Chubarov) and he looked like a bum, even when playing with Afinogenov who was the best forward of that tournament. Eventually Shvidki's career was a total bust. Yet Shvidki was the best among his age group in Russia and had played for Torpedo Yaroslavl as a 16 year old kid. The instant he moved to play in Canada he started to lose his skills.

Since early 1990's hundreds of Russian players have gone to play junior hockey in Canada. Most of them were among the best of their age group in Russia. Very few of them had a good hockey career. The majority of them regressed and never reached their potential.

All of them share one common thing. They lose their skills in Canada. They cannot play the game anymore. They lose their skating. They lose their passing. They lose their stickhandling. They lose their hockey sense. And they become useless for Russian hockey.

 

[Peter25]

RU hockey leadership is finally waking up and talking much more openly of curtailing this practice, keeping RU kids at home, cracking down on predatory agents etc. Much less RU players were taken in the last export draft, and its clear that NHL gms are now hip to this problem because the CHL guys drop like a rock in the draft and kids who stay in RU are going earlier.

Much more needs to be done but I feel its at least moving in the right direction.

This particular WJC I think was a combination of not a strong defensive group, a bit weaker goalie compared to previous years, and no Kaprizov type player.

I refuse to believe this until I see the results. By results I mean that the best Russians actually stay home. No more Andrei Svechnikovs, please.

 

[Fantomas]

It is not only about this tournament but a very long trend.

I started watching this tournament in 1999. That was the year Russia won. I remember there were only one or two players in Russian team who played in the CHL. One of them was Denis Shvidki who was supposed to be the next star in the Russian hockey. I watched Shvidki (I believe he played with Maxim Afinogenov and Artem Chubarov) and he looked like a bum, even when playing with Afinogenov who was the best forward of that tournament. Eventually Shvidki's career was a total bust. Yet Shvidki was the best among his age group in Russia and had played for Torpedo Yaroslavl as a 16 year old kid. The instant he moved to play in Canada he started to lose his skills.

I remember that one fondly. Was played in Winnipeg. Canada had Roberto Luongo in net and their big star probably was Daniel Tkaczuk who turned out to be a disappointment in the pros.

Russia outshot Canada big in the final, but the game went to overtime because their goalie Volkov had a fivehole the size of Manitoba. Chubarov scored the winner off the faceoff.

Afinogenov looked like the next Bure to my eyes at the time. Was outstanding, and still turned out to be a good player. Shvidki looked okay. Later I learned that he had anxiety issues. Maybe they were exacerbated by the stress of moving to North America, but I can't say this for certain.

This was the second World Juniors tournament I remember following. The first one was 1998 in which Canada lost to Kazakhstan. Russia lost to the Finns in a heartbreaking final.

 

[Statsy]

I can assure you that guys are not "losing their skill" because they come to North America. That's not to say that that having a bunch of players overseas isn't hurting the junior team in general. Obviously the more star players you take out of a junior system, the weaker the level of play in general for your development system. Many of the other hockey nations have also been grappling with that problem for years.

I also want those of you that so fervently defend your Russian style of play to take note of a rather important point. Unlike the majority of people on this board, I'm actually old enough to have seen old style Soviet hockey and I can assure you it looks nothing like the system Russia has been playing the past several years. Ever since Pavel Bure came on the scene, everybody seems to want to do solo rushes and beat everyone else on the ice. That goal by Altybarmakyan yesterday was exactly what I'm talking about. Sure, it was a great goal, but it also illustrates the endemic problems that Russia has developing players. They don't play with their five players on the ice nearly as well as they used to. They certainly don't pass like they used to. They all want to be the hero.... the next Ovechkin. Until Russia remembers how they used to play, it's just going to become harder and harder for them to consistently dominate.

 

[BlitzSnipe]

We already are. The downfall is already happening. Question is whether Russia can stop it and reverse the situation. The key is to stop the flow of best junior players to Canada. If Russia fails to do this then it is pretty much over for Russian hockey. Then Russia will not compete for the Gold or even a medal in any major international tournament.

But why are you so convinced that the flow of players to Canada ruins Russian hockey? What is it that 'ruins' Russian players once they get to Canadian leagues?

 

[Passionis]

Guys keep in mind also that Russia didn't have its top 2 Ds in the tournament and this class of defensemen is too shallow to overcome that.

But is it really a bad thing that they were missing their top Ds the last 2 years because they were in NHL? I don't think so.

While its 'good', it's not good that we have no depth to cover a couple of losses. Ideally we should have 8-10 solid, and I mean Solid D, and atleast 1 or 2 high caliber D. There should be competition for the spot and that's the minimum. Not scraping and scrambling for atleast someone with decent stats on both sides of the ocean.
I'm not even asking for 4-6 KHL/NHL ready players, although that used to be the trend in Soviet Days.

 

[Passionis]

But why are you so convinced that the flow of players to Canada ruins Russian hockey? What is it that 'ruins' Russian players once they get to Canadian leagues?

Essentially the players go from being told how to train and guided their entire youth development in Russia, to being basically on their own for skills development and expected to 'adopt' to NA style of play. Coaching is extremely different in Russia and NA, all the way down to details like practice drills and pace.

Most of teenagers downright slack off and stop working on their skills. They are no longer practicing with adult KHL players and learning from them, they are not challenged by their coaches directly and criticized openly like in Russia. That is why only very few of them continue progressing. And even when they do progress it's either along CHL or AHL level of play VS KHL level.

 

[Peter25]

I'm not even asking for 4-6 KHL/NHL ready players, although that used to be the trend in Soviet Days.

It is a fantasy to return to Soviet days. Those days are over and impossible to return to.

Take the 1957-1961 age groups for example. Those age group produced likes of Fetisov, Kasatonov, Krutov, Larionov, Makarov, Khomutov, Bykov, Gerasimov, Drozdetsky, Gimayev, Varnakov, Tyumenev, Kozhevnikov, Svetlov, Zubkov, Starikov, M.Vasilyev, Mylnikov etc (I may have forgotten a few). All this talent in a span of just five years! This is basically most the core of the Soviet national team of the 1980's. No wonder the Soviets were beating everyone at the junior level too then.

The bar is a lot lower for today's Russia. But it is worth remembering those old good days of Russian/Soviet hockey.

 

[Zine]

I have the impression that corruption is at play here. Bragin's line and player choices may reflect the wishes of some rich folks from above, especially the St. Petersburg SKA is often criticized for pre-determining the lineup. If this is the case, it could end up ruining Russian hockey for good, unfortunately. As regards Russian players moving to NA, I at first did not think that this would be that bad, seeing as though NA hockey attracts all the best players worldwide anyway. However, it's true that Russian players, once they get there, sort of have to forget the Russian hockey system in their minds and 'start from scratch' - the result could be a strategic confusion in players, where they become uncertain as to what playing style they sould adopt. Or are there other reasons why this move to the NA league is detrimental?

At any rate, I certainly hope that we're not witnessing an utter downfall of Russian hockey. I hope that officials will be found in Russia who really care about the sport and who will be capable to bring Russian hockey back to where it should be.

SKA corruption? You watch too many movies.
There weren’t any ‘passengers’ on this team, or, when the roster was announced, players that people thought didn’t belong. This generation just isnt very good. Nothing more/less.
In terms of ice time allocation, Bragin’s idiocy was his penchant to roll lines ad nauseam (including on the pp), never favoring anybody, never making adjustments, and never putting anybody in a position to succeed.

 

[Zine]

I can assure you that guys are not "losing their skill" because they come to North America. That's not to say that that having a bunch of players overseas isn't hurting the junior team in general. Obviously the more star players you take out of a junior system, the weaker the level of play in general for your development system. Many of the other hockey nations have also been grappling with that problem for years.

I also want those of you that so fervently defend your Russian style of play to take note of a rather important point. Unlike the majority of people on this board, I'm actually old enough to have seen old style Soviet hockey and I can assure you it looks nothing like the system Russia has been playing the past several years. Ever since Pavel Bure came on the scene, everybody seems to want to do solo rushes and beat everyone else on the ice. That goal by Altybarmakyan yesterday was exactly what I'm talking about. Sure, it was a great goal, but it also illustrates the endemic problems that Russia has developing players. They don't play with their five players on the ice nearly as well as they used to. They certainly don't pass like they used to. They all want to be the hero.... the next Ovechkin. Until Russia remembers how they used to play, it's just going to become harder and harder for them to consistently dominate.

I can assure you, most our kids, particularly forwards, do ‘lose their skills’ in NA juniors.
But keep in mind, its not the fault of NA leagues. Its an issue of circumstance.

Russia is a completely different world than NA. We have different approaches to development, and, even more so, language and cultural dissimilarities. It can be like night and day. As such, such a drastic alteration in life and hockey at the crucial age of 15-18 is a lot for a youngster to handle, exceedingly risky, and more often than not brings poor results.

As such, the inverse would be true as well. How many NA kids would properly develop if they were dropped in the middle of Yaroslavl at age 15-19? Probably not many either.

 

[Statsy]

I can assure you, most our kids, particularly forwards, do ‘lose their skills’ in NA juniors.
But keep in mind, its not the fault of NA leagues. Its an issue of circumstance.

Russia is a completely different world than NA. We have different approaches to development, and, even more so, language and cultural dissimilarities. It can be like night and day. As such, such a drastic alteration in life and hockey at the crucial age of 15-18 is a lot for a youngster to handle, exceedingly risky, and more often than not brings poor results.

As such, the inverse would be true as well. How many NA kids would properly develop if they were dropped in the middle of Yaroslavl at age 15-19? Probably not many either.

You're not wrong about the difficulties of the cultural change. I can only imagine how hard it is to move to an entirely new country and have to adjust to a completely different culture and language and at such a young age. Hell, I get homesick when I'm away on vacation for more than ten days.

But with that said, it's not like they aren't focusing on skills training in NA. We have great coaching and certainly don't just focus on a structured game strategy to the detriment of creativity like what happened in Sweden for a decade.

 

[Peter25]

But with that said, it's not like they aren't focusing on skills training in NA. We have great coaching and certainly don't just focus on a structured game strategy to the detriment of creativity like what happened in Sweden for a decade.

Could be true but obviously it is not working for Russian players. We have a sample size of hundreds of players to prove that.