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Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,546
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Pittsburgh
And I'll say it for the billionth time: People being ******** over a 37 year old making $3.85 mil not producing so well is just a great case of how good we have it here. I mean honest to god if you're complaining about Kunitz it means there isn't a whole hell of a lot to complain about. Oh no, we signed a guy for a little too long who doesn't even make a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. It happens.....to literally every team.

I like Guentzel. I think it's crazy that he's not on this team until he proves he shouldn't be. If they could dump Kunitz for a draft pick I would do it, but I'd potentially scratch another guy or two in favor of Guentzel as well, or at least rotate him in if possible.

They moved Kunitz down to the third line, so I don't know what all the crying is about. In the past that was the mantra: if they bumped him down to the third line all would be right in the world. They're not going to scratch him long-term, and you can't complain all day every day about how bad he is and then wonder why they can't find another team that wants him in a trade. Plus, there's also the crazy possibility that the coaches know something this board doesn't, which is likely that the guy is old and slow but he knows what he's doing out there. He's been around the block, and he's pretty much our only forward that has any kind of physical game.

I'm not saying that's much, but I try to see what the coaches see instead of deeming them all morons and me the god of the internet.

Had we never seen Guentzel come up, I think we'd see a lot less of us annoyed with Kunitz. I'm less annoyed with Kunitz himself now that he's been demoted, but that's kind of cancelled out by Guentzel not being in the line-up. Honestly, I'm going to be nervous about Kunitz here until the day he signs with someone else. :laugh:
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,378
19,423
And I'll say it for the billionth time: People being ******** over a 37 year old making $3.85 mil not producing so well is just a great case of how good we have it here. I mean honest to god if you're complaining about Kunitz it means there isn't a whole hell of a lot to complain about. Oh no, we signed a guy for a little too long who doesn't even make a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. It happens.....to literally every team.

I like Guentzel. I think it's crazy that he's not on this team until he proves he shouldn't be. If they could dump Kunitz for a draft pick I would do it, but I'd potentially scratch another guy or two in favor of Guentzel as well, or at least rotate him in if possible.

They moved Kunitz down to the third line, so I don't know what all the crying is about. In the past that was the mantra: if they bumped him down to the third line all would be right in the world. They're not going to scratch him long-term, and you can't complain all day every day about how bad he is and then wonder why they can't find another team that wants him in a trade. Plus, there's also the crazy possibility that the coaches know something this board doesn't, which is likely that the guy is old and slow but he knows what he's doing out there. He's been around the block, and he's pretty much our only forward that has any kind of physical game.

I'm not saying that's much, but I try to see what the coaches see instead of deeming them all morons and me the god of the internet.

As Bowman always said about repeating as a cup champion, if you aren't evolving, you are allowing other teams to catch you. You can't fall in love with an idea or line that worked during the previous season and allow that mental block to keep your team from progressing.

We all saw how well the young guys played and the key roles they had in helping this team win a cup. So I don't really like the whole "Kunitz is a vet, the coaches know something we don't" line of defense, to be honest. That concept should have been thrown out with Scuds, Glass, Adams, etc.

Also, it is quite fair to ask why is Fehr benched over Kunitz?

Fehr is more versatile, has put the puck in the net more often than Kunitz with much less opportunities, and Fehr is better in his own end.

Kunitz playing over a guy like Guenztel doesn't make the team better, but it does massage and manage important locker room egos...
 

Ugene Magic

EVIL LAUGH
Oct 17, 2008
54,540
19,012
Pittsburgh
Hagelin had a bad start for sure. There's a few key differences with Hags and Kunitz though.

1. Hagelin was really good last year.
2. Hagelin is playing well now.
3. Hagelin helps the team even when not scoring.

None of those are true for Kunitz. Hagelin fits the style we play perfectly. Kunitz couldn't fit it much worse. That's not to say we don't need Hagelin to be better than he's been so far. But he's got 4 points in his last 6 games after only having 7 in the 24 before that. I'm hoping he's turning that corner.

My overall thought on Kunitz is that he could probably be somewhat serviceable still if he was playing with Malkin and Rust. But really he's not good enough to justify a top 6 spot, and I just don't think he can be successful in our bottom 6 away from Sid or Geno.

Why couldn't he survive in the bottom six?

He does those things none of the rest do, like at all. Consistently hits which is certainly needed, he provides for the youth that up until last season he was the only guy with experience past the ECF at wing. Teaching these kids how to be a pro, (I know some snarky remarks will surface) Meh, but he wears the A for a reason. These guys will learn things from him, because life as a wing is more then being a stats producer if you want to win. I certainly would rather a guy teach them then learn everything on the fly and have costly mistakes bunch up together and actually cost them a series.

Here is reality that depth helps teams win. It helped them in 2009 when the league was a fast paced game just as it did last season with the same. Those depth scenario's couldn't be more different, though. Back then in 2009 they already had a stalwart bottom six and needed depth in the top six. They added Kunitz and Guerin to Satan, Fedotenko, Dupuis and Sykora.

Three of those guys got put in bottom six roles which created their depth. Only one saw limited action. (Sykora) He had no way of being a good bottom six player, he had no traits to be a bump and grinder.

Now Kunitz is now in that same scenario now that Satan, Dupuis were put in all those years ago. He's the only one, one..... who was a top six. He will not be the reason they win or lose, simply because he does those other things nobody does consistently. He chipped in a little and did the hardnose plays really none of these guys you want to replace him, can do. You do need that element, what Kunitz does in between or even after the whistle.

Like last playoffs, say you have Guentzel, Malkin and Rust. Who's doing the pushing back?

Now that we can safely say, Geno. Is that the guy you want to be doing all the pushing back with his constantly taking penalties? I love that he does it to protect his linemates, but his linemates should be able to help him as well. That line would be taken advantage of even more.

If there was a guy I seriously thought they could do without, even last year, it is Fehr. But how can you discount depth.

Guentzel isn't being stunted or held back, he is doing everything to his abilities and he'll be up here next season fulltime. Sooner then most forwards in recent years. With a full 2 years left on his ELC.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

Registered User
Sep 13, 2005
17,564
315
Miranda's house
As Bowman always said about repeating as a cup champion, if you aren't evolving, you are allowing other teams to catch you. You can't fall in love with an idea or line that worked during the previous season and allow that mental block to keep your team from progressing.

We all saw how well the young guys played and the key roles they had in helping this team win a cup. So I don't really like the whole "Kunitz is a vet, the coaches know something we don't" line of defense, to be honest. That concept should have been thrown out with Scuds, Glass, Adams, etc.

Also, it is quite fair to ask why is Fehr benched over Kunitz?

Fehr is more versatile, has put the puck in the net more often than Kunitz with much less opportunities, and Fehr is better in his own end.

Kunitz playing over a guy like Guenztel doesn't make the team better, but it does massage and manage important locker room egos...

Is it ego stroking or the coaches simply disagreeing with what we see? Or someone somewhere feels that $3.85 mil should be out on the ice? Not saying that's right, just attempting to explain it. I don't have problem with him being scratched, and point taken on the Scuds/Glass/Adams stuff. This is a different staff though if we're considering everything we know.

I also agree with Bowman, though I'd say we've evolved pretty swiftly overall lately. I'm just not going to get hung up on one blemish on the entire forward corps that honestly isn't costing them very much.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,546
22,073
Pittsburgh
Is it ego stroking or the coaches simply disagreeing with what we see? Or someone somewhere feels that $3.85 mil should be out on the ice? Not saying that's right, just attempting to explain it. I don't have problem with him being scratched, and point taken on the Scuds/Glass/Adams stuff. This is a different staff though if we're considering everything we know.

I also agree with Bowman, though I'd say we've evolved pretty swiftly overall lately. I'm just not going to get hung up on one blemish on the entire forward corps that honestly isn't costing them very much.

Kunitz being our biggest roster problem (at least when Murray is in) is certainly a good sign overall.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,705
8,141
Regarding Kunitz, a lot of us want him dumped, but if we trusted the team to bench him to play youth and just keep him as depth, no one would complain.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,546
22,073
Pittsburgh
honestly, if Guentzel was kept up and Wilson benched when Kunitz came back, I don't think many of us would have complained either. But now I think Wilson is outplaying Kunitz too, which I wouldn't have said at the time.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,930
80,124
Redmond, WA
"Veteran leadership" as a defense of Kunitz just shows how useless of a player he is at this point. If his best attribute is being old as hell, that's not someone a team should want to keep around. The Penguins don't need Kunitz's "veteran leadership" when they have multiple 2x cup winners on their team.
 

ETA

Registered User
Aug 8, 2008
567
41
Ya, Cullen and others can provide any "veteran leadership" that is needed. Using that as an excuse to keep Kunitz in the lineup is a crock of...
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,546
22,073
Pittsburgh
"Veteran leadership" as a defense of Kunitz just shows how useless of a player he is at this point. If his best attribute is being old as hell, that's not someone a team should want to keep around. The Penguins don't need Kunitz's "veteran leadership" when they have multiple 2x cup winners on their team.

Right. Sid, Geno, Kessel, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Cullen, Fehr, Bonino. Letang and Daley on D. This team has plenty of guys to teach these kids about NHL hockey without Kunitz. That leaves his hitting -- which I guess we could miss, despite most of them being about a second after the puck's gone --and his "pushing back" between whistles -- which I just plain don't agree with -- as his strengths.
 

Asuna

Lvl 94 Sub-Leader
Apr 27, 2014
8,217
200
Pittsburgh
Can you give any quotes here? I don't have a subscription to DK.

Yay. Can anyone share any JR quotes?

Jim Rutherford had made it clear for months that he wasn’t interested in trading Marc-Andre Fleury this season. Having two No. 1 goaltenders in Fleury and Matt Murray, he stated on numerous occasions, was best for the 2016-17 Penguins.

I spoke with the GM about this Thursday. His tune has started to change.



He isn’t actively pursuing a trade involving Fleury.

I suspect rather strongly that he doesn’t want to trade Fleury.

But, for the first time, Rutherford acknowledged that he will consider it.

“There’s not urgency to do it, other than the fact that it’s … difficult. Both guys want to play a lot of games,†he began his reply to my question on that topic. “It’s not something that I’m thinking about right now, today. But I would suspect at some point in time during this season, if he’s not playing as much as he would like, it may become more of an issue at that point in time.â€

A trade isn’t out of the question this season. The goaltending situation is something that very clearly has Rutherford’s attention.

“It’s something that I’m watching,†Rutherford said. “I’m listening.â€

If he listens to trade offers, how sweet will they have to be?

“I really don’t know,†Rutherford said. “It’s not a markt that I’ve tested. I don’t know the answer to that.â€

:popcorn:
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,930
80,124
Redmond, WA

giphy.gif
 

Slaaapshuter

Registered User
May 10, 2015
1,197
861
I'd consider all of Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Hörnqvist, Hagelin, Letang, Bonino, Cole to be "veterans".

There's plenty of veteranessens on the team. And Cullen isn't around for being a veteran, he's around for what he brings on the ice.
 

Asuna

Lvl 94 Sub-Leader
Apr 27, 2014
8,217
200
Pittsburgh
So it really does seem like JR is open to trading Fleury now. If he continues to flounder, he's good as gone.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,546
22,073
Pittsburgh
I'd consider all of Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Hörnqvist, Hagelin, Letang, Bonino, Cole to be "veterans".

There's plenty of veteranessens on the team. And Cullen isn't around for being a veteran, he's around for what he brings on the ice.

being a veteran is a bonus with Cullen. Which is how it should be. Young teams trying to climb from the bottom of the standings (us in 2005 - 2007) bring in guys to be veterans. Contenders bring in good hockey players, some of whom may be veterans.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,378
19,423
Is it ego stroking or the coaches simply disagreeing with what we see? Or someone somewhere feels that $3.85 mil should be out on the ice? Not saying that's right, just attempting to explain it. I don't have problem with him being scratched, and point taken on the Scuds/Glass/Adams stuff. This is a different staff though if we're considering everything we know.

I also agree with Bowman, though I'd say we've evolved pretty swiftly overall lately. I'm just not going to get hung up on one blemish on the entire forward corps that honestly isn't costing them very much.

I'm not really hung up on the Kunitz stuff as long as he remains in the bottom six.

But I don't feel like we need to justify his presence in the lineup using excuses and advanced stats, like we saw for the last couple of pages in this thread.

I feel that it is obvious Kunitz is playing because he is a long time tenured vet that helped the team win two cups, not because his presence makes the team better.
 
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