Proposal: 2015-2016 Season Trade Rumours & Proposals | Part XII

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Continue here.

Old thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2051149

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Stay the course. Wait for an elite talent to be available again and then make the trade. Someone like Johansen. So like a Malkin or Giroux or something.

When are guys like Malkin and Giroux ever available?

You dont know if there was a dinghy let alone a boat...he didn't miss anything as far as we know.

And if BM did then plenty of other teams with more to offer missed it to.

Lazar isn't "futures". He's a roster player with 100+ games of NHL experience. The only thing that is "futures" is his potential.

Getting a roster player (Lazar), a very good prospect that can be a roster player as soon as next year if not the year after (White), and a 12OV pick which projects to have a good dman available is a good package, and good value for ANY team, not just a rebuilding one.

Example Colorado: They get Lazar who can slot on their 2nd or 3rd line. They get White who can slot in their lineup as well. And they get 12th OV pick with which they can draft a highly touted dman who would be very valuable in their system and would, along with Zadorov, be their best option in the future along with Johnson,Barrie,etc.

Obviously if someone offers them Seth Jones + (type of package) for Landeskog they'll take it and run, but our deal is the next best thing and is very valuable.

In past few years: Johansen, Seguin, O'Reilly were available. All top 15 C's

Obvi not a lot but we gotta accumulate our own wealth and then when someone available we go after em. Hopefully Zib and White develop well and we dont even need to.

Click to read more...

 

[50 in 07]

Lazar isn't "futures". He's a roster player with 100+ games of NHL experience. The only thing that is "futures" is his potential.

Getting a roster player (Lazar), a very good prospect that can be a roster player as soon as next year if not the year after (White), and a 12OV pick which projects to have a good dman available is a good package, and good value for ANY team, not just a rebuilding one.

Example Colorado: They get Lazar who can slot on their 2nd or 3rd line. They get White who can slot in their lineup as well. And they get 12th OV pick with which they can draft a highly touted dman who would be very valuable in their system and would, along with Zadorov, be their best option in the future along with Johnson,Barrie,etc.

Obviously if someone offers them Seth Jones + (type of package) for Landeskog they'll take it and run, but our deal is the next best thing and is very valuable.

Maybe that's true that our deal is the next best thing, but in this example Colorado have no need or intention to trade Landeskog or Duchene if the offer doesn't blow them away or fill a specific need for them. Both are signed long term and reasonably - why should they trade them for anything except a similarly aged and talented top 4 d-man which is their greatest need atm.

They're in the same boat as us they're trying to make the playoffs and make the step from bubble team to one that's in the playoffs consistently. Draft picks and prospects are not helpful in that regard. Lazar has NHL experience, yes, but hasn't shown anything remotely close to top 6 ability offensively so at this point I think he's far less valuable than you're making him out to be.

You can't just say that our hypothetical package is valuable therefore every team will and should be interested. Bar massive overpayment that never happens in real life, teams have no reason to move their young talent to us unless we give them something that fills a specific need. In this case a bottom/middle 6 forward like Lazar can be had easily through other means without giving up a stud, and White + 1st rounder are likely not impact players for a few years. While on the other hand they give up the known, proven impact player who can contribute significantly right away.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

With how Colorado has been managed the last three seasons I wouldn't be surprised if they were stupid enough to move Duchene for Curtis Lazar, White, and the 12th overall. It is depressing how losing good players and overpaying UFAs seems like a new yearly tradition in Colorado. I guess I am just bitter about them getting rid of O'Reilly.

Look at it this way. If they trade Duchene, it isn't the same as when they moved O'Reilly. It is not a salary or a cap move. He is locked down for a long time at a good hit. They aren't rebuilding. They are trying to move him to make their team better which probably means getting back either two really good players who aren't quite as good as him, or a player of a different position who is as good as him in a hockey trade.

If I'm going by what people have said about White, White's ceiling probably isn't even being as good as Duchene. Lazar is a good player to have, but he isn't enough to make up the difference. What is a fair expectation for Lazar at this point? A really good 3C with leadership who might have a few seasons in his career as a fringe 2C? 12th overall is a valuable piece, but again, White+12th overall is all futures. Colorado doesn't need that. It's a square peg in a circular hole or whatever that saying is.

If I am trying to think of what Ottawa can offer for Duchene, Hoffman+Zibanejad makes the most sense. That is if Colorado is willing to give Hoffman the contract he wants, which might not be the case. Even then, I'm not sure that makes Colorado better but it seems a lot more logical than a bunch of futures for Duchene when they don't need to do it.

 

[Sensinitis]

You can't just say that our hypothetical package is valuable therefore every team will and should be interested.

Yes I can.

Interested doesn't mean they'll follow through. I'm saying that's a trade you review carefully if you're a GM.

It's not a Jared Cowen + 2nd for Duchene deal. These aren't spare parts we're offering. They're 3 recent first round picks for one player.

So yeah, I can definitely say that EVERY team WILL and SHOULD be interested. That doesn't mean they'll accept the trade, but they'll think long and hard depending on the player we're asking for, because like I said these aren't scraps we're offering. 3 very solid pieces.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Wow....no way I would pay Hoff + Zibby for Duchene. Yes, he's a good player and all that, but he tied Hoff for points this year, and is basically one year younger than Hoff. And looking at the stats....seems to be a stretch to think Duchene will ever hit 70 points again.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Yes I can.

Interested doesn't mean they'll follow through. I'm saying that's a trade you review carefully if you're a GM.

It's not a Jared Cowen + 2nd for Duchene deal. These aren't spare parts we're offering. They're 3 recent first round picks for one player.

So yeah, I can definitely say that EVERY team WILL and SHOULD be interested. That doesn't mean they'll accept the trade, but they'll think long and hard depending on the player we're asking for, because like I said these aren't scraps we're offering. 3 very solid pieces.

Grigorenko+Colorado's pick+Bigras (AKA young NHL ready player like Lazar but not an A+ guy) for Mark Stone.

I assume you wouldn't take that. The value isn't bad. Colorado's pick is better than Ottawa's, Grigorenko was ranked 5 or something in his draft year and taken near the top 10.

Duchene isn't on the block because they want to liquidate him. They are probably willing to use him to make their team better if the right offer comes up. They are trying to win and only missed the playoffs by a few points. Trading their cheap 1C for a bunch of prospects whose ceilings aren't even at the level of that player makes zero sense.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Wow....no way I would pay Hoff + Zibby for Duchene. Yes, he's a good player and all that, but he tied Hoff for points this year, and is basically one year younger than Hoff. And looking at the stats....seems to be a stretch to think Duchene will ever hit 70 points again.

Put it like this. If Ottawa isn't extending Hoffman, you aren't trading Hoffman for Duchene, you are trading whatever Ottawa would have gotten back as the best offer for Hoffman+Zibanejad. Best offer for Hoffman could be huge, or it might be as low as a 1st+3rd (aka offer sheet compensation before July 1st ala Dougie Hamilton.

Not saying Ottawa should do that trade or that I want it to happen. But I'd see it taking some combination of actual NHL players that actually fill a need for Colorado like Zibanejad, Hoffman, Methot, etc to get them to move Duchene.

Ultimately, I think a package of futures for Duchene makes zero sense.

 

[trentmccleary]

FUN FACT: Matt Puempel can be traced all the way back to the Meszaros trade, so you can argue that the trade is still paying dividends even today.

(we traded Meszaros for a package including San Jose's 1st rounder, which we traded for a package including Mike Comrie Chris Campoli, who we traded for Chicago's 2011 2nd rounder, which we traded to move up in the draft to take Puempel.)

I traced some others back to the original asset.

Yashin paying dividends 24 years later. Nick Paul hadn't even been born when Yashin was drafted and Chiasson was 1 1/2 yo.

1992 1st A. Yashin (A. Chiasson, N. Paul, G. Gagne)
1997 1st M. Hossa (D. Phaneuf)
1998 2nd M. Fisher (B. Ryan)
1999 1st M. Havlat (P. Wiercioch)
2000 2nd A.Vermette (C. White)
2003 9th B.Elliott (C. Anderson)
2004 1st A. Meszaros (M. Puempel)
2006 1st Foligno (M. Methot)
S-2008 A. Auld (M. Stone)
S-2008 J. Ruutu (M. McCormick)
2008 1st 18th-C.Pickard (15th E. Karlsson)
S-2009 A. Kovalev (R. Dzingel)
2010 1st 16th-V. Tarasenko (K. Turris)

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Put it like this. If Ottawa isn't extending Hoffman, you aren't trading Hoffman for Duchene, you are trading whatever Ottawa would have gotten back as the best offer for Hoffman+Zibanejad. Best offer for Hoffman could be huge, or it might be as low as a 1st+3rd (aka offer sheet compensation before July 1st ala Dougie Hamilton.

Not saying Ottawa should do that trade or that I want it to happen. But I'd see it taking some combination of actual NHL players that actually fill a need for Colorado like Zibanejad, Hoffman, Methot, etc to get them to move Duchene.

Ultimately, I think a package of futures for Duchene makes zero sense.

Well, yeah, giving Colorado a bunch of prospects and picks does nothing for them.....but losing Zibby + Hoff for Duchene is a net loss for us, as well.

Something like Zibby + 1st + filler guy (Chiasson? Boro?) would probably be decent for both sides (not that I would do that either....I think Zibby is on the verge of a big breakout next year).

 

[Sensinitis]

Grigorenko+Colorado's pick+Bigras (AKA young NHL ready player like Lazar but not an A+ guy) for Mark Stone.

I assume you wouldn't take that. The value isn't bad. Colorado's pick is better than Ottawa's, Grigorenko was ranked 5 or something in his draft year and taken near the top 10.

Duchene isn't on the block because they want to liquidate him. They are probably willing to use him to make their team better if the right offer comes up. They are trying to win and only missed the playoffs by a few points. Trading their cheap 1C for a bunch of prospects whose ceilings aren't even at the level of that player makes zero sense.

That deal is terrible.

Maybe I'm high on our prospects and players but:

Lazar > Grigorenko
White >> Bigras

So the difference between the picks doesn't compensate.

And our 12th OV pick fits COL's needs because chances are a very good dman will be available at 12. Their pick makes us move up 2 spots, lol.

 

[trentmccleary]

Put it like this. If Ottawa isn't extending Hoffman, you aren't trading Hoffman for Duchene, you are trading whatever Ottawa would have gotten back as the best offer for Hoffman+Zibanejad. Best offer for Hoffman could be huge, or it might be as low as a 1st+3rd (aka offer sheet compensation before July 1st ala Dougie Hamilton.

Not saying Ottawa should do that trade or that I want it to happen. But I'd see it taking some combination of actual NHL players that actually fill a need for Colorado like Zibanejad, Hoffman, Methot, etc to get them to move Duchene.

Ultimately, I think a package of futures for Duchene makes zero sense.

Duchene isn't really outproducing Zibanejad by much anymore (the much cheaper player who is 2 years younger). So the difference between the two of them is nowhere near Mike Hoffman.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

These are some bonkers trade offers for Matt Duchene. Like opposite of what opposing fan bases do in these proposals.

Hoffman, Mehtot AND Zibanejad???

White, Lazar AND our first???

B.O.N.K.E.R.S

 

[Langdon Alger]

I'd be ok with giving up Zibby as part of a deal to get Duchene, because I don't think Zib will ever be better than Duchene. I have my doubts he will ever be as good actually. You never know. I don't want to write him off, and I'm happy to hear he is staying in town to work out with the Sens staff this off season. Plus Duchene is only 2 years older than Zibby anyway.

I guess it's a matter of whether we could take on Duchene's contract. Can we do that and re-sign Hoffman and Ceci?

Zibanejad + for Duchene. It just depends on what the plus is.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

These are some bonkers trade offers for Matt Duchene. Like opposite of what opposing fan bases do in these proposals.

Hoffman, Mehtot AND Zibanejad???

White, Lazar AND our first???

B.O.N.K.E.R.S

I didn't suggest they trade all three for him. I said that if Ottawa actually wanted him I could see it taking some combination NHL players that fit their needs and named those three as potential guys.

Maybe I should have been more clear that I wasn't suggesting they'd ask for all three.

Should Ottawa go after Duchene if that's the cost? Unless Hoffman is getting low value offers from other teams, and they aren't re-signing him, probably not. But I cannot see a scenario where COL moves a 1C that doesn't involve them getting back a player or players that make them better now. I don't think they've soured on Duchene to the point where they just want to wash their hands of him for the best offer value wise.

 

[Sensinitis]

I wouldn't call trading Duchene for Hoffman+, from the Avs perspective, "wash(ing) their hands of him".

Hoffman provides about 30G,30A. For now... That's not nothing. If they think they have a center that can be good down the road and take Duchene's spot, it doesn't seem like the worst move.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

These guys would obviously be add-ons, but Colorado is one of the few teams I could see having interest in Wiercioch and Chiasson.

Hoffman, Wiercioch, Chiasson + 1st
for
Duchene, Iginla (33% retained) + 2nd 2016 + 2nd 2017


Zibanejad - Duchene - Ryan
Macarthur - Turris - Iginla
Smith - Pageau - Stone
Puempel/Paul/McCormick - Lazar - Neil

pure fantasyland but I could easily see that as a top 5 offense in the league

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Is Duchene a #1C though? How much better is he than Turris realistically? If I were after him, I'd actually be more interested in him being a LW for us. His production isn't that far off Turris and Zibanejad at this point.

I kind of question the idea that he's an upgrade on our C situation.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Duchene being a lefty is the main reason I'd be interested

I very much doubt he gets moved though

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

Is Duchene a #1C though? How much better is he than Turris realistically? If I were after him, I'd actually be more interested in him being a LW for us. His production isn't that far off Turris and Zibanejad at this point.

I was toying with that idea as well. I think the main difference is that Duchene will create no matter who he is playing with - he is a better individual talent than either guy - much more of a game breaker and a creative type of player. Honestly, he is similar to Hoffman but better in a few areas - better defensively, better playmaker, and a better decision maker (which ties in pretty closely with the first two areas).

I think he is definitely a #1C. Not a huge upgrade on Turris, but enough that Turris would be able to play more of a shutdown role (like when we had Spezza), and enough that our top line would become a bit more dangerous, IMO. I think Spezza leaving really allowed Turris to develop, but now that he has become a better and more mature player, he would excel even more behind a top creating offensive center.

 

[Langdon Alger]

His career high for points is 70 and his career high for goals is 30. Keep in mind he's only 25. Duchene and Turris as our top two centres would be amazing.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

His career high for points is 70 and his career high for goals is 30. Keep in mind he's only 25. Duchene and Turris as our top two centres would be amazing.

Yeah. How I see it, we currently have below average top 2 Cs (both of them) and above average bottom 2 C's (both of them). If we acquire Duchene, we have an above average/average top line C, and definitely above average C2/3/4. Its a nice boost all the way through the lineup.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yeah. How I see it, we currently have below average top 2 Cs (both of them) and above average bottom 2 C's (both of them). If we acquire Duchene, we have an above average/average top line C, and definitely above average C2/3/4. Its a nice boost all the way through the lineup.

An upgrade at C would make a huge difference to the Sens. Make it happen

 

[Langdon Alger]

I traced some others back to the original asset.

Yashin paying dividends 24 years later. Nick Paul hadn't even been born when Yashin was drafted and Chiasson was 1 1/2 yo.

1992 1st A. Yashin (A. Chiasson, N. Paul, G. Gagne)
1997 1st M. Hossa (D. Phaneuf)
1998 2nd M. Fisher (B. Ryan)
1999 1st M. Havlat (P. Wiercioch)
2000 2nd A.Vermette (C. White)
2003 9th B.Elliott (C. Anderson)
2004 1st A. Meszaros (M. Puempel)
2006 1st Foligno (M. Methot)
S-2008 A. Auld (M. Stone)
S-2008 J. Ruutu (M. McCormick)
2008 1st 18th-C.Pickard (15th E. Karlsson)
S-2009 A. Kovalev (R. Dzingel)
2010 1st 16th-V. Tarasenko (K. Turris)

The Havlat trade is still paying dividends ten years later. Although, we clearly won that trade by having Preissing for one year.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

His career high for points is 70 and his career high for goals is 30. Keep in mind he's only 25. Duchene and Turris as our top two centres would be amazing.

The two years before this Turris had 58 and 64 points in 82 games.

Duchene had 70 in 71 games and 55 in 82 games. 59 this year in 76.

I'm attracted to Duchene since he shoots left, but is there really much to separate the two? As a Sens fan I'd say Turris is a superior 2 way player.

I guess if it's Zibanejad vs Duchene, Matt wins but I'm not sure if be comfortable with the lack of size down the middle.

Dunno if it's worth it to us to give up a piece like Z or Hoffman plus maybe a first for this type of guy.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The two years before this Turris had 58 and 64 points in 82 games.

Duchene had 70 in 71 games and 55 in 82 games. 59 this year in 76.

I'm attracted to Duchene since he shoots left, but is there really much to separate the two? As a Sens fan I'd say Turris is a superior 2 way player.

I guess if it's Zibanejad vs Duchene, Matt wins but I'm not sure if be comfortable with the lack of size down the middle.

Dunno if it's worth it to us to give up a piece like Z or Hoffman plus maybe a first for this type of guy.

I like his creativity, his possession, his quickness. Duchene/Turris would be a significantly improved 1/2 combo.