2010 MLD Finals
- Thread starter Dreakmur
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Dreakmur
Registered User
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Minor lineup change
And something we should have done a long time ago. Olausson is being moved to the 3rd pairing and Smaill up to the 2nd pairing. This lets Olausson play the full PP, which is his biggest strength. So slightly modified Brooklyn lineup:
GMS: jareklajkosz & TheDevilMadeMe
Head Coach: Rudy Pilous
Assistant Coach: Larry Robinson
Dennis Hextall (A) - Vladimir Zabrodsky - Eddie Wiseman
Dubbie Kerr - Dutch Reibel - Todd Bertuzzi
Jay Pandolfo - Ron Sutter (C) - Rich Preston
Steamer Maxwell - Charlie Sands - Keith Crowder
Normand Rochefort - Dick Redmond
Rick Green (A) - Walter Smaill
Dave Lewis - Fredrick Olausson
Miikka Kiprusoff
Dan Bouchard
Spares: Sergei Brylin, Jimmy Herberts (Steamer Maxwell is a rover who switch to D in case of injuries)
PP1: Dubbie Kerr - Vladimir Zabrodsky - Todd Bertuzzi - Dick Redmond - Fredrick Olausson
PP2: Keith Crowder - Dutch Reibel - Eddie Wiseman - Walter Smaill - Fredrick Olausson
PK1: Ron Sutter - Jay Pandolfo - Normand Rochefort - Rick Green
PK2: Charlie Sands - Rich Preston - Dave Lewis - Walter Smaill
And something we should have done a long time ago. Olausson is being moved to the 3rd pairing and Smaill up to the 2nd pairing. This lets Olausson play the full PP, which is his biggest strength. So slightly modified Brooklyn lineup:
GMS: jareklajkosz & TheDevilMadeMe
Head Coach: Rudy Pilous
Assistant Coach: Larry Robinson
Dennis Hextall (A) - Vladimir Zabrodsky - Eddie Wiseman
Dubbie Kerr - Dutch Reibel - Todd Bertuzzi
Jay Pandolfo - Ron Sutter (C) - Rich Preston
Steamer Maxwell - Charlie Sands - Keith Crowder
Normand Rochefort - Dick Redmond
Rick Green (A) - Walter Smaill
Dave Lewis - Fredrick Olausson
Miikka Kiprusoff
Dan Bouchard
Spares: Sergei Brylin, Jimmy Herberts (Steamer Maxwell is a rover who switch to D in case of injuries)
PP1: Dubbie Kerr - Vladimir Zabrodsky - Todd Bertuzzi - Dick Redmond - Fredrick Olausson
PP2: Keith Crowder - Dutch Reibel - Eddie Wiseman - Walter Smaill - Fredrick Olausson
PK1: Ron Sutter - Jay Pandolfo - Normand Rochefort - Rick Green
PK2: Charlie Sands - Rich Preston - Dave Lewis - Walter Smaill
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Good luck, Hedberg/VCL. Not surprised at all that you're in the finals; you were my top ranked team in the regular season.
Now before we get into it, I think it might be helpful we we each describe how our teams work.
Here's how Brooklyn works:
Line 1: Obviously built around the enigmatic one-dimensional goal scorer Zabrodsky. Hextall digs the puck out of corners and passes it to either Zabrodsky or Wiseman. Wiseman is the main puck distributor on the line, but he can also provide a bit of secondary goal-scoring.
Line 2: A much more traditional scoring line and honestly, probably better than Line 1. Dubbie Kerr is the primary shooter, but he can also pass. Dutch Reibel is the primary passer, but he can also shoot. Bertuzzi is the beast in the corners and in front of the net; he also has a pretty good ability to get the puck to his teammates. There is some reason to believe that Reibel can provide an adequate defensive conscience for the line.
Line 3: Standard checking line. Sutter is tough, good defensively, and excellent on faceoffs. Preston is tough, good defensively, "a poor man's John Tonelli" in the corners (which is a good thing at this level), and his WHA playoff MVP indicates he can chip in with some clutch points. Pandolfo is all-defense, but one of the best defensive players at the MLD level.
Line 4: Sands provides a decent two-way presence. Crowder is also two-way and is super-tough. Hall of Famer Maxwell was a rover, so he had more defensive responsibilities than a normal forward, and he was a really fast skater.
Defense 1: Rochefort is a beast as a defensive defenseman. Redmond is an excellent offensive defenseman at this level, who is adequate in his own zone.
Defense 2: Green is a slightly lesser version of Rochefort as a beast in his own zone. Smaill provides a decent amount of both offense and toughness. While we have no evidence he was good defensively, he was considered one of the best role players of his era, so he couldn't have been bad.
Defense 3: Lewis is a standard bottom pair giant defensive defenseman; "a pillar in his own zone." Olausson brings lots of offense with the occasional brainfart. He was fairly poor in his own zone much of his career, but got better towards the end under Scottie Bowman (we hope Larry Robinson has the same effect on him here).
Goaltending: Kipper is a very strong starter at this level and Bouchard is an okay backup.
PP1: Bertuzzi is the front of the net presence and a very good one (once led the league in PP goals). Zabrodsky is a shooter. Kerr can shoot or pass. Redmond and Olausson are both at their best on the PP.
PP2: Crowder is a better PP scorer than ES scorer. He'll be in front of the net. Reibel and Wiseman can both get the puck to him, and both are okay at goalscoring too. Smaill is pretty good for a secondary pointman and Olausson's presence here over the whole PP really helps.
PK1: Pandolfo is likely the best PKer in the series. Sutter is excellent at faceoffs. Rochefort and Green are both at their best on the PK.
PK2: Preston is a great PKer. Sands is a "good checker" from the early years. I like Lewis's size here. Smaill isn't an ideal PKer, but he definitely brings toughness and is used to being a role player, so he shouldn't be out of place.
Now before we get into it, I think it might be helpful we we each describe how our teams work.
Here's how Brooklyn works:
Line 1: Obviously built around the enigmatic one-dimensional goal scorer Zabrodsky. Hextall digs the puck out of corners and passes it to either Zabrodsky or Wiseman. Wiseman is the main puck distributor on the line, but he can also provide a bit of secondary goal-scoring.
Line 2: A much more traditional scoring line and honestly, probably better than Line 1. Dubbie Kerr is the primary shooter, but he can also pass. Dutch Reibel is the primary passer, but he can also shoot. Bertuzzi is the beast in the corners and in front of the net; he also has a pretty good ability to get the puck to his teammates. There is some reason to believe that Reibel can provide an adequate defensive conscience for the line.
Line 3: Standard checking line. Sutter is tough, good defensively, and excellent on faceoffs. Preston is tough, good defensively, "a poor man's John Tonelli" in the corners (which is a good thing at this level), and his WHA playoff MVP indicates he can chip in with some clutch points. Pandolfo is all-defense, but one of the best defensive players at the MLD level.
Line 4: Sands provides a decent two-way presence. Crowder is also two-way and is super-tough. Hall of Famer Maxwell was a rover, so he had more defensive responsibilities than a normal forward, and he was a really fast skater.
Defense 1: Rochefort is a beast as a defensive defenseman. Redmond is an excellent offensive defenseman at this level, who is adequate in his own zone.
Defense 2: Green is a slightly lesser version of Rochefort as a beast in his own zone. Smaill provides a decent amount of both offense and toughness. While we have no evidence he was good defensively, he was considered one of the best role players of his era, so he couldn't have been bad.
Defense 3: Lewis is a standard bottom pair giant defensive defenseman; "a pillar in his own zone." Olausson brings lots of offense with the occasional brainfart. He was fairly poor in his own zone much of his career, but got better towards the end under Scottie Bowman (we hope Larry Robinson has the same effect on him here).
Goaltending: Kipper is a very strong starter at this level and Bouchard is an okay backup.
PP1: Bertuzzi is the front of the net presence and a very good one (once led the league in PP goals). Zabrodsky is a shooter. Kerr can shoot or pass. Redmond and Olausson are both at their best on the PP.
PP2: Crowder is a better PP scorer than ES scorer. He'll be in front of the net. Reibel and Wiseman can both get the puck to him, and both are okay at goalscoring too. Smaill is pretty good for a secondary pointman and Olausson's presence here over the whole PP really helps.
PK1: Pandolfo is likely the best PKer in the series. Sutter is excellent at faceoffs. Rochefort and Green are both at their best on the PK.
PK2: Preston is a great PKer. Sands is a "good checker" from the early years. I like Lewis's size here. Smaill isn't an ideal PKer, but he definitely brings toughness and is used to being a role player, so he shouldn't be out of place.
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Dreakmur
Registered User
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
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Thanks for posting our defense pairing switch, TDMM. Yeah, I think it puts Olausson in his best possible comfort zone, as we won't have to worry about any blunders or anything like that because he won't see much even strength time, at all (which will figure into 70s studies that showed he wasn't playing much ES time on his own teams). I think with this he can handle the full PP.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I had a feeling that we'd be meeting you guys in the final. Best of luck TDMM and jarek, here's to a good series.
I'll try and find some time to post comments in the next couple days. I know Hed is away as well so you might not hear too much from us right away, but we'll be around soon enough.
I'll try and find some time to post comments in the next couple days. I know Hed is away as well so you might not hear too much from us right away, but we'll be around soon enough.
I'll be back on a solid internet connection Wednesday afternoon and hopefully get in a few discussion days before voting.
For now, good luck to TDMM and Jarek
He's an "unsung hero" according to Ted Lindsay and he played centre in the production line are the only bits of evidence pushed forward.
Not real evidence to me.
jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
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Reibel isn't the easiest guy to find info for. None of the books I have include a bio for him.
Be that as it may, why does every line NEED a defensive conscience? You think one single guy out of the 3 on the line is going to make a big difference defensively? Those guys are going to be out there to score, and I'm very confident in their ability to do that. I mean, no one seems to have argued against it when we said that our 2nd line is good enough to be a 1st line. I think we'll have control of the puck most of the time with that line, so I don't see this idea that there's no real defensive conscience on it as much of a detriment.
Be that as it may, why does every line NEED a defensive conscience? You think one single guy out of the 3 on the line is going to make a big difference defensively? Those guys are going to be out there to score, and I'm very confident in their ability to do that. I mean, no one seems to have argued against it when we said that our 2nd line is good enough to be a 1st line. I think we'll have control of the puck most of the time with that line, so I don't see this idea that there's no real defensive conscience on it as much of a detriment.
Dreakmur
Registered User
There's probably a reason most books don't think he's worth writing about, but that doesn't mean you should just make stuff up.
Not every line NEEDS a defensive guy, but that's not the point.
The point is there's nothing that indicates he was good defensively. TDMM should not be claiming there is "some amunt of evidence"... thought, I suppose "none" is still techniclly "some amount".....
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
That and the fact that there is no way that Lindsay would have praised Reibel in such a way decades later if he failed to perform the duties expected of a center of the Production Line - part of which is staying back when Howe and Lindsay go hard after the puck in the offensive zone.
Also, a poster on another message board called him a "glue guy." On it's own, it doesn't mean much, but I think it adds a little to what we already ahve.
I think it's enough to say that he'll be adequate for the task, something along Brendan Morrison lines. If you want to say he'll do no better than what should be expected of an average center, that's fine. But I think it's pretty clear that he can handle the normal defensive responsibilities of playing center.
No, he isn't as good defensively as someone like Paul Haynes, who actually has quotes about his defensive ability, but for older players, you sometimes need to read between the lines. But I think it's enough to make Reibel better than Janney or Zabrodsky in that regards.
Anyway, I edited the post to say : "There is some reason to believe that Reibel can provide an adequate defensive conscience for the line."
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jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
But this isn't my point.. my point is that the line doesn't really NEED a defensive conscience, since it is a pretty powerful scoring line..
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Bertuzzi is a slight minus without the puck, so Reibel just needs to be a slight plus, and I think he can handle that. We're not asking for him to be Mike Modano or even Paul Haynes out there.
Dreakmur
Registered User
You are basing that on 2 posts made by anonymous posters on a message board. Neither of the posts even mention his defensive ability.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
http://insidehockey.com/columns/6130 is the source of the Ted Lindsay quote. It is neither anonymous, nor a message board.
Dreakmur
Registered User
The quote in your Bio is quoted to HockeyInsider, which is why I assumed he said it.
Regardless, the quote doesn't even hint at his defensive play. Also, it's hearsay
Dreakmur
Registered User
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Geez Louise! 
If offensive lines were most important then it'd be a Philly vs. Boston College final. If defenses won championships it'd be Texas vs. Quebec or Belleville. If goalies carried the day it'd certainly not be Ranford vs. Kiprusoff for the championship!
Good coaching and a balanced line-up characterize the two finalists for the Creighton Cup, each with a decent enough Bottom-6 and functional Top-6 and blueline. Neither team thrives on a specific excellence. Multiple factors wil have to be weighed. It's lookin' close.
If offensive lines were most important then it'd be a Philly vs. Boston College final. If defenses won championships it'd be Texas vs. Quebec or Belleville. If goalies carried the day it'd certainly not be Ranford vs. Kiprusoff for the championship!Good coaching and a balanced line-up characterize the two finalists for the Creighton Cup, each with a decent enough Bottom-6 and functional Top-6 and blueline. Neither team thrives on a specific excellence. Multiple factors wil have to be weighed. It's lookin' close.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I did some stats comparisons from Moose Watson's SOHA years to some NHL guys of known values that spent at least a couple of years playing against him. I'll post this later on tonight; I think that it gives us a better idea of what his value is, than ever before. It's safe to say he is a good MLD player.
However - can he play center? I have only ever heard of him playing LW. This could be a major problem - certainly worse than passing off a center as a winger.
However - can he play center? I have only ever heard of him playing LW. This could be a major problem - certainly worse than passing off a center as a winger.
I think I did see him something about him playing centre at one point, but that's possibly be a mistake. To negate any issue, the new third line is Moose Watson - Bob Gracie- Joe Lamb
Also, since Brooklyn's special teams were posted, here's Florida's:
PP1: Marc Tardif - Craig Janney - Dolly Swift - Howard McNamara - Duncan Keith
PP2: Robert McDougall - Paul Haynes - Joe Lamb - Haldor Halderson - Phat Wilson
PK1: Samuel Pahlsson - Anders Kallur - Howard McNamara - Duncan Keith
PK2: Bob Gracie - Paul Haynes - Miroslav Dvorak - Haldor Halderson
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Those pointmen on the PP are scary good. Keith and Dvorak are good on the PK. What do we know about Halderson's defensive ability?
For that matter, do we really know that Howard McNamara is good defensively? Everything I've seen about him talks about his size and physicality, and we know he has good offensive totals. But he could just be a Phaneuf or McCabe, right? Am I missing something? I mean, with his offensive totals and size, I'd have to think he'd be in the Hall of Fame with his lower scoring brother if he was also a shutdown defenseman, right? Unless you believe the story that the Hall mistakenly inducted George when they meant to induct Howard, but I think the evidence for that is even weaker than evidence of Dutch Reibel's defensive ability.
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