2010-2013 Stamkos vs 2016-2019 Kane

[authentic]

As far as xGF%, SF%, CF% and GF%, Matthews underlying numbers for the last two seasons compare favorably to Stamkos. Stamkos' 2011 season is the only one on par with Matthews 20 or 21 seasons. His current season is on track to be the best season between either player.

Stamkos isn't actually a standout play-driver amoung elite players, particularly centers. As an example, I did a quick search for all seasons from Stamkos, Crosby, Toews, Bergeron and Kopitar from 2008 to 2021, and Stamkos best xGF% season is 24th on the list.

Yeah that all lines up with what I thought, I just didn't realize Kane was particularly bad in play driving and defense to the point where even Stamkos would have a significant edge over him.

 

[JaegerDice]

Yeah that all lines up with what I thought, I just didn't realize Kane was particularly bad in play driving and defense to the point where even Stamkos would have a significant edge over him.

Kane has had some very good years as far as underlying numbers and play-driving, just not inside the 4-year window alotted. Another reason why I'd take him career vs career in a heartbeat, but not in this specific, somewhat-arbitrary comparison.

 

[authentic]

I find this odd because I always took St Louis has a bigger factor and better still for more of those years. How was Stamkos close to thr best in the league when he wasn't really beyond St. Louis on his own team?

Is st Louis previously overrated or what? Cause it also seemed pretty clear the dynamic rate of a Stamkos dropped as St Louis was gone after 13.

Other than 1 season when he had 60 goals I always felt like St. Louis was better also, pretty sure most Tampa fans did back then as well. Do people consider St. Louis at his peak better than Kane?

 

[authentic]

Kane has had some very good years as far as underlying numbers and play-driving, just not inside the 4-year window alotted. Another reason why I'd take him career vs career in a heartbeat, but not in this specific, somewhat-arbitrary comparison.

Oh true enough. Especially if we are comparing playoff performances it's Kane by a lot. Pretty sure Kane's worst playoff run in points per game is comparable to the best of Stamkos.

 

[Felidae]

Kane was the best player in the league in 2016. Stammer wasn't ever.

But would Kane be the best player in the league with peak evgeni Malkin as his competition?

He was pacing for nearly 120 points that year with 75 games played.

All things considered, I think 60 goal stamkos is on par with 2016 Kane. 9 less points but 14 more goals in virtually the same league average in goals.

 

[Gurglesons]

But would Kane be the best player in the league with peak evgeni Malkin as his competition?

He was pacing for nearly 120 points that year with 75 games played.

All things considered, I think 60 goal stamkos is on par with 2016 Kane. 9 less points but 14 more goals in virtually the same league average in goals.

I mean, it wasn't like Crosby was chopped liver in 2015-16.

Also Giroux was arguably better than Stamkos in 11-12 so let's not pretend Stamkos was just like firmly in 2nd place without anyone else close to him.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Stamkos injured his leg but he was underwhelming in the playoffs before that. Kane has the more consistent track record and actually has scored 100+ in a season.

 

[JaegerDice]

Crosby and Malkin won back to back in 16 and 17?

The 2016 Penguins team was a lot more than Crosby and Malkin. That's why they won the cup when so many other teams with Malkin and Crosby came up short.

2017 was one of those teams like the 2015 Blackhawks... a lot of guys that knew how to win, and will themselves to it, even if they really didn't play that well for a lot of the regular season or playoffs. Tip of the hat to that Pens team for gutting it out, but if any Pens fan points to 2017 as the high point for any player on that team, I'd love to hear the argument.

TL;DR 2016 and 2017 Crosby and Malkin were not the same as early 2010s Crosby and Malkin, certainly in the regular season (injuries aside).

 

[Gurglesons]

The 2016 Penguins team was a lot more than Crosby and Malkin. That's why they won the cup when so many other teams with Malkin and Crosby came up short.

2017 was one of those teams like the 2015 Blackhawks... a lot of guys that knew how to win, and will themselves to it, even if they really didn't play that well for a lot of the regular season or playoffs. Tip of the hat to that Pens team for gutting it out, but if any Pens fan points to 2017 as the high point for any player on that team, I'd love to hear the argument.

TL;DR 2016 and 2017 Crosby and Malkin were not the same as early 2010s Crosby and Malkin, certainly in the regular season (injuries aside).

I'm a Pens fan.

Crosby in 16-17 was fantastic and unbelievable from basically December through the end of the year in 15-16. Kane was just better that year.

Stamkos wasn't the 2nd best player in the time period above. Neither was Kane. But Kane was the best player in a year Stamkos wasn't.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I
As far as career vs career, I'd obviously rather have Kane, predominantly for the playoff performances he's provided. But between these two, fixed, somewhat arbitrary time periods, I'd rather take the guy that doesn't need to be insulated as much because he drives play better, and only loses 10 points of raw production in the process.

It's just semantics, but this description always causes me mixed feelings because I always associate it with "better at carrying the puck and setting up chances". Advanced stats folks seem to use it as a description of being on the ice when more chances are created for than against.

For instance, during Tavares' first year in Toronto when he scored 47 goals, in my mind it was clear that Marner was the "play driver" because he was the one who had the puck the most and set up the chances. Tavares simply got into scoring position and finished those chances off. Yet I've heard Tavares as being called a better play driver that year than Marner because what he does translates to "chance creation stats" more than what the guy who gains the zone, then makes a pass to a guy for a tap in does.

Not that either is the right or wrong usage, just that when I personally see that phrase I tend to look at it more from a player who carries the puck more and sets up chances.

 

[JaegerDice]

It's just semantics, but this description always causes me mixed feelings because I always associate it with "better at carrying the puck and setting up chances". Advanced stats folks seem to use it as a description of being on the ice when more chances are created for than against.

For instance, during Tavares' first year in Toronto when he scored 47 goals, in my mind it was clear that Marner was the "play driver" because he was the one who had the puck the most and set up the chances. Tavares simply got into scoring position and finished those chances off. Yet I've heard Tavares as being called a better play driver that year than Marner because what he does translates to "chance creation stats" more than what the guy who gains the zone, then makes a pass to a guy for a tap in does.

Not that either is the right or wrong usage, just that when I personally see that phrase I tend to look at it more from a player who carries the puck more and sets up chances.

Fair enough. I tend to think of or call what you're describing as 'play-making', while exerting control over which team has the better of the play is 'play-driving'.

A play-driver may not be the skilled player that makes plays, he may simply be the guy that does the less flashy things battles in the corners, wins puck battles, wins races, keeps the puck in the zone, breaks up opposition plays, etc. The great ones, the Toews, Bergerons, Kopitars of the world, create offensively in addition to doing all the little things that keep the puck on the sticks of their teammates.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby played 80 games and was only 28 in 15-16. This is kane

 

[JoVel]

Is st Louis previously overrated or what? Cause it also seemed pretty clear the dynamic rate of a Stamkos dropped as St Louis was gone after 13.

That was also post leg injury Stamkos.