20 Toews versus 20 Ovechkins

[Varan]

To think a team of prime Toews couldn't shut down prime Ovi is just wishful thinking.

But I do say Current Ovi would mop current Toews.

What? LOL

I assume you haven't watched a prime Ovechkin. Nobody on Earth would shut down a prime Ovechkin

 

[Dekes For Days]

These were all addressed within the thread

No, they weren't. It has been actively avoided. Even when you were specifically asked to support your false claim, as I showed.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

What? LOL

I assume you haven't watched a prime Ovechkin. Nobody on Earth would shut down a prime Ovechkin

Well someone needs to post the head to head stats.

I really think prime Toews dogwalks prime Ovi on a short leash

 

[wetcoast]

it's weird, the poster said how current OV would easily beat current Toews, but PRIME OV would get shut down. lmao

Yes that was really weird as current Ovi has a much weaker case.

 

[Varan]

Well someone needs to post the head to head stats.

I really think prime Toews dogwalks prime Ovi on a short leash

Dogwalks? Wow

Why do you think so?

 

[wetcoast]

Well someone needs to post the head to head stats.

I really think prime Toews dogwalks prime Ovi on a short leash

I really want MJ to post the stats as Toews has much better stats against Ovi in Ovi's 3 year peak.

Same thing in the first 2 years of Toews peak and in the 3rd year it was an unbalanced schedule so they didn't meet.

Dekes for Days will know cite the small game sample probably since he brought it up.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

No idea on what you mean by this, his shooting % and shots that actually make the net are as good or better than Ovi.

Ovi is an extremely high volume shooter with a ton of shots missed as well.

The 3 teams you mentioned do have high offensive talent at all positions along with chemistry.

Sometimes those secondary assists really do mean something about talent eh?

And we're done here....unbelievable that you can actually post this and not even attempt to edit it, which means you meant it. Toews shots that hit the net are as good or better than Ovechkin. My god man you're delusional.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Well, pretty much that Toews is/was a winner and during his prime, a team of Toews, in somebody's words in this thread, was pretty much unbeatable. From 10 to 15 Toews won three cups and it was stated Toews team, the Hawks, was a team of Toews.

The closest prime Toews will ever come to prime Ovi was Stamkos in 15. And Toews shut him down in the finals. Completely.

To think a team of prime Toews couldn't shut down prime Ovi is just wishful thinking.

But I do say Current Ovi would mop current Toews.

You couldn't be more wrong here, Ovechkin has faced better players than Toews in series and seasons and was never shut down. To think he wouldn't skate around, by and through Jonathan freakin Toews is just absurd.

 

[wetcoast]

And we're done here....unbelievable that you can actually post this and not even attempt to edit it, which means you meant it. Toews shots that hit the net are as good or better than Ovechkin. My god man you're delusional.

Perhaps you didn't read the post I was responding to maybe?

I think you are utterly wrong. Since 2005, the best powerplays in the NHL are the Capitals, Penguins, and Sharks - 3 teams that have had excellent high end offensive talent. It's not a coincidence.

Toews's problem on the powerplay is he's an inferior playmaker to Ovechkin, and a far inferior shooter.

Why would I edit my post?

Toews shooting % and shots that make it though to the net as a percentage are very good.

Maybe reality sucks?

Also you know full well that I have called Ovechkin the greatest goalscorer in history at least 20 or 30 times this years on different threads that you participate in so get over yourself a bit here.

 

[JaegerDice]

I think 20 Toews would have the puck so much, it would limit the volume shooting of the Ovechkins enough to outscore them.

 

[CanadienShark]

I will expand on my previous post.

Peak Toews is a 40 goal 90 point guy with Selke defense and faceoff % of nearly 60% (probably higher against Ovechkin).

Having the puck 60% of the time (and is a possession monster) and being the better checker makes up for the offensive difference Ovi has IMO.

Peak Toews has never hit PPG in a full season. He's never scored more than 81 points. He's never come close to 40 goals. Are you joking and it went over my head?

 

[wetcoast]

Peak Toews has never hit PPG in a full season. He's never scored more than 81 points. He's never come close to 40 goals. Are you joking and it went over my head?

12-13 he had 48 in 47 games, the season itself was 48 games.

The 40-50-90 is adjusted stats converted as every season has slightly different rates.

Just for comparison, which I did bring up BTW Ovi's peak season is 72 goals and 122 points.

 

[CanadienShark]

12-13 he had 48 in 47 games, the season itself was 48 games.

The 40-50-90 is adjusted stats converted as every season has slightly different rates.

Just for comparison, which I did bring up BTW Ovi's peak season is 72 goals and 122 points.

That's why I said never PPG in a full season. And he was barely over PPG in one year, a short season. He's objectively a sub-PPG player, not a 90 point player.

 

[kp61c]

at his peak ovechkin's physicality was something else. i think 20 ovechkins would have beat 20 toews into pulp. not close.

 

[wetcoast]

That's why I said never PPG in a full season. And he was barely over PPG in one year, a short season. He's objectively a sub-PPG player, not a 90 point player.

Well he was a PPG in the full season of 12-13 and I have stated upthread many times that in his peak he was slightly above a PPG per 180ish games in his 3 year peak if we adjust for scoring levels.

I'm not really sure why there is so much focus on small details like FULL SEASON like somehow the season before and after 12-13 should hold greater weight or something.

Take this current season which is likely finalized are we really going to give it less weight than last season or next season if there is a full one?

 

[CanadienShark]

Well he was a PPG in the full season of 12-13 and I have stated upthread many times that in his peak he was slightly above a PPG per 180ish games in his 3 year peak if we adjust for scoring levels.

I'm not really sure why there is so much focus on small details like FULL SEASON like somehow the season before and after 12-13 should hold greater weight or something.

Take this current season which is likely finalized are we really going to give it less weight than last season or next season if there is a full one?

So he was PPG over a small sample size. So freaking what? And it wasn't a full season. There's a reason why it's referred to as a shortened season. He still is nowhere near 90 points. Nowhere close. He is objectively NOT a 90 point player in any way, shape, or form. No matter the mental gymnastics you go through to reach that conclusion.

 

[wetcoast]

So he was PPG over a small sample size. So freaking what?

So freaking waht, are you taking to a mirror, the only person freaking out here seems to be you.

Maybe this is what happens when social distancing takes place and there is no hockey to watch?

And it wasn't a full season.

no you are right he only played in 47 of the 48 games but he still had 48 points so that would make him a PPG type of player right for that season?

There's a reason why it's referred to as a shortened season.

Last time I looked up NHL.com or hockey reference or heck any other site that's a full season.

Different seasons over time have had different amounts of games.

He still is nowhere near 90 points. Nowhere close. He is objectively NOT a 90 point player in any way, shape, or form. No matter the mental gymnastics you go through to reach that conclusion.

Sure that's why I qualified it at his peak SEASON ADJUSTED and in his peak 3 seasons he is a PPGish type of player.

Look if he is a couple of points over or under a PPG for 3 seasons WTF does it really matter?

 

[CanadienShark]

So freaking waht, are you taking to a mirror, the only person freaking out here seems to be you.

Maybe this is what happens when social distancing takes place and there is no hockey to watch?



no you are right he only played in 47 of the 48 games but he still had 48 points so that would make him a PPG type of player right for that season?



Last time I looked up NHL.com or hockey reference or heck any other site that's a full season.

Different seasons over time have had different amounts of games.



Sure that's why I qualified it at his peak SEASON ADJUSTED and in his peak 3 seasons he is a PPGish type of player.

Look if he is a couple of points over or under a PPG for 3 seasons WTF does it really matter?

1. Nope. I'm talking you. I never said anything about freaking out. No need to be immature.

2. Doesn't matter. The sample size is tiny and irrelevant.

3. Nope. It's not a full season. It was shortened.

4. And you're still wrong.

Jeez man, I honestly thought you were joking for a bit. I can't believe you're actually serious.

 

[wetcoast]

1. Nope. I'm talking you. I never said anything about freaking out. No need to be immature.

2. Doesn't matter. The sample size is tiny and irrelevant.

3. Nope. It's not a full season. It was shortened.

4. And you're still wrong.

Jeez man, I honestly thought you were joking for a bit. I can't believe you're actually serious.

Thanks for contributing your noble peace prize is in the mail just wait for it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm not really sure why there is so much focus on small details like FULL SEASON like somehow the season before and after 12-13 should hold greater weight or something.

Full seasons do hold greater weight than half seasons. They did it over a larger sample. Beyond that, the issues with those adjusted stats have already been pointed out to you.

You're suggesting Toews is something he never was. Because he gets even more creamed in this comparison otherwise.

 

[wetcoast]

Full seasons do hold greater weight than half seasons. They did it over a larger sample. Beyond that, the issues with those adjusted stats have already been pointed out to you.

You're suggesting Toews is something he never was. Because he gets even more creamed in this comparison otherwise.

Ya you are right he is only a 181 point guy in his 186 game peak, what a fraud eh?

And f*** adjusted stats that Ovechkin guy doesn't even have a top 20 season in goal scoring......

Just on a side not if you have 95 American dollars I have 100 Canadian ones for you straight up well because dollars are dollars right?

I was going to put up this emoji but hey everything is literal here and there is no room to really equate things right?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ya you are right he is only a 181 point guy in his 186 game peak, what a fraud eh?

No, not a fraud. Just not a "40 goal, 90 point" guy.

And f**k adjusted stats that Ovechkin guy doesn't even have a top 20 season in goal scoring......

Adjusting for era isn't the issue here. That site is not adjusting properly, especially that one particular year, as has been pointed out to you. You also cannot claim the "peak" of a player to be a 47 game sample. Especially when that small sample contradicts what they have shown to be capable of over every other bigger sample.

Answer me this: do you believe that Kadri is a 35 goal, 84 point player?

 

[wetcoast]

No, not a fraud. Just not a "40 goal, 90 point" guy.

Adjusting for era isn't the issue here. That site is not adjusting properly, especially that one particular year, as has been pointed out to you. You also cannot claim the "peak" of a player to be a 47 game sample. Especially when that small sample contradicts what they have shown to be capable of over every other bigger sample.

Answer me this: do you believe that Kadri is a 35 goal, 84 point player?

So for 12-13 what kind of guy is Toews anyways to you.

Are you going to fault him that the season was only 48 games?

Do you want to deny that he led the NHL in ESG that year?

For a single year yes that's actually his peak single season and he doesn't get close to that mark again.

As far as Toews goes he had 181 points in 186 actual games before the adjustment but if you want to stick with that sure just back off Ovechkin on the same vein as he doesn't even have a top 20 goal scoring season all time right?

But then again you also are sticking to a team of 20 Ovis averaging 110+ SOG/ game against a team of 20 Toews so you will have to pardon me if I'm not going to take your focus on the 40-90 seriously.

If it was only looking to offensive stats without context this thread would have been shut down to a landslide win quite a while ago but others can see beyond simply counting stats and the total game sometimes even here.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Are you going to fault him that the season was only 48 games?

It's not faulting him. It's using proper context. The small sample did not allow his underlying stats to normalize. It's the same reason we don't call Crosby a 138+ point player based on 11/12. Or Kadri an 85 point player. It's ridiculous.

47 games is not a peak. Especially when that small sample contradicts what they have shown to be capable of over every other bigger sample.

But then again you also are sticking to a team of 20 Ovis averaging 110+ SOG/ game against a team of 20 Toews

Actually I have not said that. Only you have. And your assumption that it's impossible is based off of literally nothing. Please don't misrepresent what I have said.

 

[wetcoast]

It's not faulting him. It's using proper context. The small sample did not allow his underlying stats to normalize.

47 games is not a peak. Especially when that small sample contradicts what they have shown to be capable of over every other bigger sample.

That's why I used a 3 year peak for both players and that was 186 games for Toews 2 of which were pretty much full NHL season and the other a 59 game sandwiched in between where he had 57 points.

Actually I have not said that. Only you have. And your assumption that it's impossible is based off of literally nothing. Please don't misrepresent what I have said.

no You jst haven't answered the question because you don't like the answer.

I laid out based 100% on facts what Ovi did and how he did it (with such a high number of SOG) and how that type of production would be virtually impossible across a team of 20 Ovechkin's, you simply can't handle the truth and the absurd question being asked here in this thread.