Post-Game Talk: #20| FLYERS at Islanders| Mon., Nov. 24, 2014

[Jtown]

C'mon, Couts is 21. We need to be patient with these young guys. People have been ready to ship Schenn out for the past couple seasons, but now that he's playing well those same people have shut up.

Most guys at Couts' age have barely cracked the NHL. I'd like to give him at least 2 more seasons to get his offensive groove.

Especially when Simmonds and Read have been trash at even strength too. Those are the two we should be most worried about. They're in their prime and are producing jack ****. People like to blame Vinny and Umberger, and they have been terrible, but we knew what we were getting with them for the most part. What about Read and Simmonds? They've been playing awful and so far have fallen way short of expectations.

Simmonds may have 14 points, but 8 are because he's on the top PP and most of them came in the first couple games. He's done nothing for the past dozen games or so. And we know how bad Read has been. These guys are supposed to be our reliable top 6 forwards.

right now you are looking for reasons and excuses to explain coots play right now. That is justifiable, we do this in all aspects of our lives but , know what you are doing and why you are doing it .

I am patient with coots and schenn to some degree, but right now they are in roles in which you can't be patient with unless you plan on tanking. Coots is not a 2nd line center right now, and he may not be a 2nd line center ever.

This does not mean he is immune to criticism just because he is young and other players from his draft class are struggling just the same.

 

[Curufinwe]

He produced like a 2nd line center at even strength last season. 31 ESP good for 51st most in the league among centers.

We have been thru this a dozen times before.

 

[Striiker]

It's not a comparison. It's being impartial and observant without letting bias get in the way.

I don't like vinnny the player but if he has a good shift Ill say it. Coots Who i love , has looked really bad as of late and ive commented as such.

There is no comparsion but if someone is playing bad and no one says a thing it seems very Fanboyish to me.

It also has nothing to do with bias.

You're asking why VL and RJ get a lot of heat but Couts and Simmonds don't get as much, well it's because VL and RJ are on an island of their own when it comes to uselessness. Neither of them are worth anything at all and both of them are hurting the team. Couts and Simmonds are helping the team, but not as much as most would like. Completely different situations.

All our secondary scoring has been underwhelming at best, but Couts and Simmonds at least provide a service other than that. Even without the scoring from them you're still getting shut down D and powerplay help. I'd love to see both of them score more and I'm disappointed that they're not, but there's real reasons why they're not so it's understandable. The reason VL and RJ aren't scoring or doing anything positive is because the two of them are completely useless players, they have zero excuse.

 

[Funf]

I'm getting worried about Couts myself now, too.

I know he's just not in a position to succeed offensively at the moment - insane defensive zone starts, no D to help him get the play moving up the ice, line mates that aren't clicking for whatever reason - but yeah, I'm worried the offense won't come.

He needs to find his game still. He looks a little lost on the PP (admittedly, the rest of the unit looks awful all of the time, too), and anybody in this league that is putting up 50~60 points is getting a fair margin with the man advantage. We've seen flashes where he looks like a pure goal scorer, flashes where he looks like a dominant possession player, but he still just can't put it together consistently.

On the other hand, he's 21. Most NHL players have their breakout year around age 23. So I'll give him some time.

But he's a rock defensively! Even if he's not scoring right now, he's a big contributor to the team. You can't say the same about Lecavalier or Umberger, or even Read so far. They've been the cause of way too many goals again already.

 

[blinds]

right now you are looking for reasons and excuses to explain coots play right now. That is justifiable, we do this in all aspects of our lives but , know what you are doing and why you are doing it .

I am patient with coots and schenn to some degree, but right now they are in roles in which you can't be patient with unless you plan on tanking. Coots is not a 2nd line center right now, and he may not be a 2nd line center ever.

This does not mean he is immune to criticism just because he is young and other players from his draft class are struggling just the same.

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth and I don't appreciate you telling me what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Don't pretend like you're sent here to educate me, you sound incredibly pretentious.

I'm not "looking for reasons and excuses", I acknowledge he's been slightly disappointing so far, I'm just cautioning against making any kind of judgement calls against him because players change a lot from who they were at 21. He deserves some leeway to let him grow, he's certainly shown a great degree of hockey sense and has all the tools to put it together. There's no reason to think he "may not be a 2nd line center ever".

This should all be expected when you start a season with a 21 year old 2C. If we wanted consistent results from him we should have got a guy that isn't still developing. No one was expecting us to compete for the cup this year, this is a transition year where we should be patient and giving them space to grow.

My point is that growing pains and cold spells with Couts should be expected. With Read and Simmonds, not so much. They're in their prime, they should be able to contribute offensively at even strength and they're not. They're playing well below expectations.

 

[Garbage Goal]

It's purely dumbfounding how we can have guys like Lecavalier on the roster plus have the D group we have with Berube as head coach (and several shaky seasons ahead most likely) yet certain people still find time to make Matt Read and Sean Couturier the top targets of concern. It's dumbfounding.

 

[blinds]

It's purely dumbfounding how we can have guys like Lecavalier on the roster plus have the D group we have with Berube as head coach (and several shaky seasons ahead most likely) yet certain people still find time to make Matt Read and Sean Couturier the top targets of concern. It's dumbfounding.

Well, I think the hope is all those guys (Berube, Vinny, Umberger, Grossmann) will be gone in the short term, while Read, Simmonds and Couts are a big part of our long term future. If they don't pan out, that's a significantly bigger problem. Of course it's ridiculous to make any conclusions after 20 games, but you'd like to see more offense from all 3 at this point. Simmonds had a nice hot streak in the first ~4 games and has been pretty quiet since.

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

It's purely dumbfounding how we can have guys like Lecavalier on the roster plus have the D group we have with Berube as head coach (and several shaky seasons ahead most likely) yet certain people still find time to make Matt Read and Sean Couturier the top targets of concern. It's dumbfounding.

I dont think anyone are making them ''top targets of concern''. It's just that the wee bit of criticism thrown their way gets everybody riled up and more defensive than a mother of her new born child. Everyone knows and expects Vinny, Umberger, our dmen and Berube to flat out suck. That's never going to change until they retire, get bought out, are miraculously traded or in Berube's case fired. There's not much more to be said about all of that that hasn't been said already.

Couturier and Read (Couts more so) are a part of the future core of the team. If people are concerned with them they should be able to express that without people jumping down their throats.

 

[Jtown]

I dont think anyone are making them ''top targets of concern''. It's just that the wee bit of criticism thrown their way gets everybody riled up and more defensive than a mother of her new born child. Everyone knows and expects Vinny, Umberger, our dmen and Berube to flat out suck. That's never going to change until they retire, get bought out, are miraculously traded or in Berube's case fired. There's not much more to be said about all of that that hasn't been said already.

Couturier and Read (Couts more so) are a part of the future core of the team. If people are concerned with them they should be able to express that without people jumping down their throats.

This is the boat i am in. I know those guys suck alone with luke schenn and AMAC, i expect nothing from them and am still left disappointed. To keep harping on their ineffectiveness is depressing and a foregone conclusion.

 

[Random Forest]

I dont think anyone are making them ''top targets of concern''. It's just that the wee bit of criticism thrown their way gets everybody riled up and more defensive than a mother of her new born child. Everyone knows and expects Vinny, Umberger, our dmen and Berube to flat out suck. That's never going to change until they retire, get bought out, are miraculously traded or in Berube's case fired. There's not much more to be said about all of that that hasn't been said already.

Couturier and Read (Couts more so) are a part of the future core of the team. If people are concerned with them they should be able to express that without people jumping down their throats.

Nobody will jump on anyone for saying Couturier should be better than he's been recently. In fact, most recognize this.

But here is where people get frustrated:

why are people so quick to point out read umberger and vinnys uselessness but Coots and Simmer get a pass?

That's just a downright stupid statement. Vinny and Umberger are actively hurting this team, whereas Couturier and Simmonds, are, at worst, only helping less than they should be.

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth and I don't appreciate you telling me what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Don't pretend like you're sent here to educate me, you sound incredibly pretentious.

That's Jtown's MO. He likes to say things that he believes are edgy and sophisticated, but they generally fall flat and instead sound contrived and pretentious.

My favorite was the "I have a theory, but I'm not sure if this board can handle it" post from the other day.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Couturier is no Leino.

 

[Rebels57]

Can't believe Couturier is still a major topic around here. 21 years old and already an elite defensive center. If he offensive game never comes around to the 50-60 point range we all desire, then so be it. That's why NHL teams have 11 other forwards. My guess is it does though by around 23 years old or so.

 

[Random Forest]

Couturier is no Leino.

Erase what I said above. That one's my favorite. Forgot about it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

C'mon, Couts is 21. We need to be patient with these young guys. People have been ready to ship Schenn out for the past couple seasons, but now that he's playing well those same people have shut up.

Most guys at Couts' age have barely cracked the NHL. I'd like to give him at least 2 more seasons to get his offensive groove.

Especially when Simmonds and Read have been trash at even strength too. Those are the two we should be most worried about. They're in their prime and are producing jack ****. People like to blame Vinny and Umberger, and they have been terrible, but we knew what we were getting with them for the most part. What about Read and Simmonds? They've been playing awful and so far have fallen way short of expectations.

Simmonds may have 14 points, but 8 are because he's on the top PP and most of them came in the first couple games. He's done nothing for the past dozen games or so. And we know how bad Read has been. These guys are supposed to be our reliable top 6 forwards.

Simmonds and Read should be the ones providing the secondary scoring, and so far they're not. It's just G + Jake and our top powerplay unit.

Agreed.

Simmonds is disappointing me because he started strong at ES and I had hoped something had clicked. Oh well, not gonna get too choked up about it, because it's not like he's regressed unlike Read. But right now, Couturier is stuck with whatever Read is, and a Simmonds that has reverted to his usual ES self. And as you pointed out, the guy is still very much a developing player in addition to having little support.

It doesn't help that, with Raffl hurt and Read doing whatever, the team doesn't really have anybody else to put with him. The options are PEB and Laughton, and I don't think anybody wants to throw Laughton to the wolves yet.

 

[Jtown]

Nobody will jump on anyone for saying Couturier should be better than he's been recently. In fact, most recognize this.

But here is where people get frustrated:



That's just a downright stupid statement. Vinny and Umberger are actively hurting this team, whereas Couturier and Simmonds, are, at worst, only helping less than they should be.


That's Jtown's MO. He likes to say things that he believes are edgy and sophisticated, but they generally fall flat and instead sound contrived and pretentious.

My favorite was the "I have a theory, but I'm not sure if this board can handle it" post from the other day.

Hf, sounds like you are a bit obsessed with this jtown character.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Beef Invictus strongly approves of third person. He wishes we used it more often.

He shall commence doing so now.

 

[Jtown]

Couturier is no Leino.

would u rather have a guy that hurts you in your own end at 4.5 million for 3 more years (vinny), or a guy who won't contribute at all for 4.5 million at 2 more years ( at the time i made the proposal i thought leino had 2 years less on his deal than vinny)

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

Nobody will jump on anyone for saying Couturier should be better than he's been recently. In fact, most recognize this.

But here is where people get frustrated:



That's just a downright stupid statement. Vinny and Umberger are actively hurting this team, whereas Couturier and Simmonds, are, at worst, only helping less than they should be.


That's Jtown's MO. He likes to say things that he believes are edgy and sophisticated, but they generally fall flat and instead sound contrived and pretentious.

My favorite was the "I have a theory, but I'm not sure if this board can handle it" post from the other day.

I can certainly understand that. Sometimes that's the way his posts come across to me as well. Im mostly just speaking in general though. I am Couturier fan and by no means even want to think about trading him, but I do have concerns with aspects of his game that I avoid bringing up because it seems people just cant seem to handle it. They overreact and assume you're saying he's a bust or he's useless, or that he'll never get better, ect.

 

[Curufinwe]

would u rather have a guy that hurts you in your own end at 4.5 million for 3 more years (vinny), or a guy who won't contribute at all for 4.5 million at 2 more years ( at the time i made the proposal i thought leino had 2 years less on his deal than vinny)

Problems with getting the facts right is kind of your thing.

 

[Jtown]

Problems with getting the facts is kind of your thing.

nobody is perfect CURU, can you find it in that black heart of yours to forgive and move on?

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

Can't believe Couturier is still a major topic around here. 21 years old and already an elite defensive center. If he offensive game never comes around to the 50-60 point range we all desire, then so be it. That's why NHL teams have 11 other forwards. My guess is it does though by around 23 years old or so.

Exactly. If this is the best Couturier ends up being, he's still a good player. But why is it so wrong to be concerned that he may never be much more than he is now?

The debate over Couturier's offensive ability vs opportunity (or lack thereof) is a very fruitful one, to say the least. I see both sides of the argument, and tend to agree with most points made from each side. These "newer" advances in statistics have certainly supported the argument that he provides offensive production despite receiving a heavy bulk of defensive responsibility.

However, he doesn't skate well; his puckhandling is relatively average; his shot is far from lethal; and I haven't been wow'd from a steady stream of surgical, effective passes.

So again, I think it's a fair topic to discuss. And just because people discuss it doesn't mean it is the biggest concern of the current team. But it does lead to questions pertaining to the future.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I can certainly understand that. Sometimes that's the way his posts come across to me as well. Im mostly just speaking in general though. I am Couturier fan and by no means even want to think about trading him, but I do have concerns with aspects of his game that I avoid bringing up because it seems people just cant seem to handle it. They overreact and assume you're saying he's a bust or he's useless, or that he'll never get better, ect.

Bingo.

 

[Striiker]

This arguing is tearing us apart.





Nahhh just kidding, it's hilarious.

 

[Garbage Goal]

My point is that this team is far from a great team after the top forward line. On top of that its under performing and hampered by a brutal player (Lecavalier) and brutal coach (Berube). It's hard to get a good read on players after the top line of whoever-Giroux-Voracek when everything after it is completely lacking in support and proper utilization. It's going to make just about every player look mediocre or under performing. Couturier has zero support, Read is probably being handled badly too (tgough who knows), and really any player not on the other Giroux wing is going to get little to no support. Once Raffl comes back maybe that will change so long as Laughton stays up but it likely won't change that much. If you think about it it's mostly true. Everyone outside of that top line looks bad, under performing, or just okay. Streit and Schenn are probably the closest exceptions to that this season although Schenn gets tossed everywhere in the lineup.

Great teams make players seem better then they are. It's why terrible teams like Edmonton or Buffalo have pretty much every players value tainted and why great teams always tend to have some overrated players (hi Mr. Intangibles, or Toews I mean). We are not a great team and even Lecavalier alone is a huge drain on this lineup. Great coaches get the most out of players and put them in positions to succeed. Berube is not a great coach and while some players produce fine under him others like Couturier or Gustafsson or whoever is getting screwed on any given night aren't being given opportunity to grow or give the best possible production.

Between those facts and the fact that we have a long rough road between now and being good again (most likely) I just don't see the point in the discussion about guys like Couturier and Read. Least of our concerns and the former is a developing youngster who carries the forwards defensively while the latter is a player with an amazing track record and is one of our most versatile forwards at his best. No reason we can't just be in a wait-and-see position with them until something necessitates otherwise or our team doesn't suck.