1993 Leafs and 2015 Jays

BayStreetBully

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I figured this post would be better in the Leafs' board rather than the History board... a question for the older Leafs fans who remember '67:

We all saw the vibe in the city this summer with the Jays. After winning in '92 and '93, we had 22 years of nothingness, followed by a sudden lightning-strike 3 months of pure euphoria. For many around my age (early 30's), the 2015 Jays brought me back to my childhood.

Were the 1993 Leafs sort of the same? As a kid, I remember watching Dougie and Wendel doing their magic that year, but I wonder if, say, a 33 year old in 1993 would feel a connection with those Leafs on a deeper level, having seen the Leafs win many cups in his/her childhood in the 60's? I mean, the Leafs just went through the terrible 80's, it's now 25 years without a cup, and then all of a sudden Gilmour comes here and it's like another lightning-strike where the Leafs are suddenly not only in the playoffs, but come within a hair of making the cup finals.

So Leafs fans over 50, you've experienced the Leafs of 1967 and 1993, and the Jays of 1993 and 2015. Did you see parallels?
 

hoglund

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The 1993 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays, the Jays were great, but didn't get the timely hitting and lost a couple of key pitchers, but they lost the series because they weren't good enough. The 1993 Leafs were a great team and most players were having career years, their fortune came to an end with Kerry Fraser's infamous non call, that directly lost the Leafs game 6 and took the wind out of their sails for game 7. The 93 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays.
 

King Mapes

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The 1993 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays, the Jays were great, but didn't get the timely hitting and lost a couple of key pitchers, but they lost the series because they weren't good enough. The 1993 Leafs were a great team and most players were having career years, their fortune came to an end with Kerry Fraser's infamous non call, that directly lost the Leafs game 6 and took the wind out of their sails for game 7. The 93 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays.

I'll disagree. I think they were good enough, it was an incredibly close series but experience was against us. KC was coming off a year where they came so close vs a team that had very little experience.
 

BayStreetBully

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The 1993 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays, the Jays were great, but didn't get the timely hitting and lost a couple of key pitchers, but they lost the series because they weren't good enough. The 1993 Leafs were a great team and most players were having career years, their fortune came to an end with Kerry Fraser's infamous non call, that directly lost the Leafs game 6 and took the wind out of their sails for game 7. The 93 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays.

What I'm really trying to get at is did you feel like 1993 brought you back to your childhood/youth/younger days of the 60's? Did the city of Toronto go through similar stages between 1967 and 1993 as the Jays did from 1993 to 2015? (Leafs being champions and kings of the city, "relative" apathy during Ballard years, revival of passion in 1993).

I became a fan in 1991 when they sucked so I saw the growth in passion even between 1991 and 1993. I want to know the perspective of someone who remembers 1967 as well. Especially from the perspective of fans who grew up in the 50's or 60's.

I'm trying to tie this all to my own experiences with the Jays. Any help would be appreciated!
 

Gabriel426

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I think the different is that Jays got all of Canada to be behind them. Esp., in the playoffs, my whole office buildings were Jays this and that, and I work in Vancouver now. Where as I really doubts that was the case for the Leafs in 93 in Vancouver.
 

BayStreetBully

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I think the different is that Jays got all of Canada to be behind them. Esp., in the playoffs, my whole office buildings were Jays this and that, and I work in Vancouver now. Where as I really doubts that was the case for the Leafs in 93 in Vancouver.

That's very true. I would qualify this question to people in their 50's and 60's who grew up in Toronto.
 

Cor

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I think the different is that Jays got all of Canada to be behind them. Esp., in the playoffs, my whole office buildings were Jays this and that, and I work in Vancouver now. Where as I really doubts that was the case for the Leafs in 93 in Vancouver.

That doesn't make one team better than the other though.

Vancouver has their own NHL team, why would they cheer on Toronto? The Jays are the only MLB team in the country, which is why the country got behind them.
 

dubey

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That doesn't make one team better than the other though.

Vancouver has their own NHL team, why would they cheer on Toronto? The Jays are the only MLB team in the country, which is why the country got behind them.
And also OP referenced the vibe of this city not Vancouver or anywhere else
 

hoglund

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What I'm really trying to get at is did you feel like 1993 brought you back to your childhood/youth/younger days of the 60's? Did the city of Toronto go through similar stages between 1967 and 1993 as the Jays did from 1993 to 2015? (Leafs being champions and kings of the city, "relative" apathy during Ballard years, revival of passion in 1993).

I became a fan in 1991 when they sucked so I saw the growth in passion even between 1991 and 1993. I want to know the perspective of someone who remembers 1967 as well. Especially from the perspective of fans who grew up in the 50's or 60's.

I'm trying to tie this all to my own experiences with the Jays. Any help would be appreciated!

I think it's hard to compare baseball to hockey, because making the playoffs in baseball is much harder than hockey, most or many teams go for 10 or more years without making the playoffs, hockey is or should be no more than a 5 year drought. Between 1967 and 1993 the Leafs made the playoffs almost every year because back then only 5 teams out of 21 missed the playoffs, if you missed you suck, that can no longer be said because 14 out of 30 miss now. In baseball for many years 4 out of 30 made the playoffs it gradually has gone up to 8, but really only 6 play a series, that's not too many teams and shows you that MLB and NHL can't really be compared when making or missing the playoffs.
 

BayStreetBully

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I think it's hard to compare baseball to hockey, because making the playoffs in baseball is much harder than hockey, most or many teams go for 10 or more years without making the playoffs, hockey is or should be no more than a 5 year drought. Between 1967 and 1993 the Leafs made the playoffs almost every year because back then only 5 teams out of 21 missed the playoffs, if you missed you suck, that can no longer be said because 14 out of 30 miss now. In baseball for many years 4 out of 30 made the playoffs it gradually has gone up to 8, but really only 6 play a series, that's not too many teams and shows you that MLB and NHL can't really be compared when making or missing the playoffs.

My thinking went along the lines that at no time between 1967 and 1992 did the city of Toronto ever think the Leafs were contenders. Even when they put up a decent playoff run in 1978, did anyone think they would get past the Habs in the semis? It appears to me (although I didn't appreciate it at the time as a kid) that 1993 was probably the first time the city of Toronto would've gotten excited about a realistic Stanley Cup championship as the team won playoff round by playoff round. Even today, we feel that had we gotten by the Kings, we also would've beaten the Habs. Coupled with how 1993 was such a drastic turnaround from 1992 and every single year before it, 1993 seems like a pretty special year not unlike any other seen since 1967. And a 26 year wait seems like enough time for an adult to reminisce about their younger days. Just like a 22 year wait with the Jays.

I know that playoffs are harder to make in baseball, but if the Jays had just crawled into the playoffs this year without a real shot at contention, things wouldn't have been so crazy. What made 2015 special was not just making the playoffs, but also that they were contenders and arguably the league favourite, the best hitting team in baseball, the most fun to watch, had so many top superstars, came out of nowhere mid-season, picked up steam as the season wore on, and united the country in the process. It was for these reasons that in my view, the Jays of 2015 brought everyone over 30 back to their youth/younger days, and gave everyone under 30 their first real experience of being a baseball contender.

I appreciate your response and if you are speaking from personal experience, I want to say thanks. If you are speaking from a general sense, I still appreciate the response but in that case it looks like I won't get a direct answer from any old-timers, so I'll just have to fill in the gaps myself and hypothesize.
 

Tak7

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Leafs = Toronto's team, carried across Canada by people who leave Toronto.

Jays = Canada's team.

That's your difference
 

Le Cobra

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Revere was called out on controversial pitches, the umpires were not in our favour throughout the playoffs. arguably mlb wasnt in our favour and sought to sabotage the jays, with the weird timeslots and scheduling games during the work week during lunch and closing the roof among others.

Jays were the better team and would have manhandled the cubs in the ws.
 

Dunny777

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Revere was called out on controversial pitches, the umpires were not in our favour throughout the playoffs. arguably mlb wasnt in our favour and sought to sabotage the jays, with the weird timeslots and scheduling games during the work week during lunch and closing the roof among others.

Jays were the better team and would have manhandled the cubs in the ws.

But how would they have fared against the Mets, the team that actually made the World Series? Because the Mets matched up well against the Jays and arguably would have beat them too.

Just let it go, man. It wasn't a conspiracy. The Jays had a great year (from the second half on at least), they just ran into a better team. There's a hundred bad calls both ways by umps every series. One bad 2nd strike call didn't make the Jays lose in 6 games. It didn't make them outscored in the series 38-26. It didn't make them strand all 12 RISP in an elimination game.

Sorry for not adding to the original topic, I wasn't old enough to remember 93 and I don't live in Toronto to know what the streets were like this year. I just can't stand this culture of excuses. You build championship clubs by acknowledging when the other team was better and looking to improve where you came up short.
 

King Mapes

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But how would they have fared against the Mets, the team that actually made the World Series? Because the Mets matched up well against the Jays and arguably would have beat them too.

Just let it go, man. It wasn't a conspiracy. The Jays had a great year (from the second half on at least), they just ran into a better team. There's a hundred bad calls both ways by umps every series. One bad 2nd strike call didn't make the Jays lose in 6 games. It didn't make them outscored in the series 38-26. It didn't make them strand all 12 RISP in an elimination game.

Sorry for not adding to the original topic, I wasn't old enough to remember 93 and I don't live in Toronto to know what the streets were like this year. I just can't stand this culture of excuses. You build championship clubs by acknowledging when the other team was better and looking to improve where you came up short.

They definitely had many go against them but I don't believe in conspiracies. Bad calls happen, the umps are human and we lost a close series. I do believe we would have beat the Mets but I was worried against the Royals as their pitching and defence is great. It was a fun series despite the outcome.
 

AlMo

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The 1993 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays, the Jays were great, but didn't get the timely hitting and lost a couple of key pitchers, but they lost the series because they weren't good enough. The 1993 Leafs were a great team and most players were having career years, their fortune came to an end with Kerry Fraser's infamous non call, that directly lost the Leafs game 6 and took the wind out of their sails for game 7. The 93 Leafs were better than the 2015 Jays.

The difference is the Jays went on an absolute tear halfway through the year where it looked like it was going to be another disappointing season at the all star break. The Jays went on a run for the ages to clinch the division. The Leafs were a good team through the 92-93 regular season but looked like the same old leafs after the first 2 games of the playoffs but the overtime winner by borchevsky in game 7 changed everything. The Jays built momentum and everyone jumped on the bandwagon eventually whereas the leafs had one particular moment that brought everyone back

as for the fraser call, how can you say it directly caused the outcome of the series? no doubt it was a missed call that would have landed the a 5 min pp but they still had to score on that PP. The leafs still had time after the no call to score they also had game 7. it was an unfortunate series of events for the leafs, period.
 

Poignant Discussion*

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The difference is the Jays went on an absolute tear halfway through the year where it looked like it was going to be another disappointing season at the all star break. The Jays went on a run for the ages to clinch the division. The Leafs were a good team through the 92-93 regular season but looked like the same old leafs after the first 2 games of the playoffs but the overtime winner by borchevsky in game 7 changed everything. The Jays built momentum and everyone jumped on the bandwagon eventually whereas the leafs had one particular moment that brought everyone back

as for the fraser call, how can you say it directly caused the outcome of the series? no doubt it was a missed call that would have landed the a 5 min pp but they still had to score on that PP. The leafs still had time after the no call to score they also had game 7. it was an unfortunate series of events for the leafs, period.

The 93 Leafs started like a typical Leaf team. I remember after about ten games they lost to the Sabres in overtime and Burns melted the paint in the dressing room and they got better. They got real better with the Fuhr trade to Buffalo. But lets be honest, that was Gilmours team. When he was on, he was pretty much the best player in the game.

The Jays were an interesting team. Poor coaching, average pitching and a world class offense. The defense was terribad until the deadline in which we were pretty much the best team out there. I do believe the 1994 Leafs team was better than the 93 team but Gilmour was to beat up to go any further
 

King Mapes

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The 93 Leafs started like a typical Leaf team. I remember after about ten games they lost to the Sabres in overtime and Burns melted the paint in the dressing room and they got better. They got real better with the Fuhr trade to Buffalo. But lets be honest, that was Gilmours team. When he was on, he was pretty much the best player in the game.

The Jays were an interesting team. Poor coaching, average pitching and a world class offense. The defense was terribad until the deadline in which we were pretty much the best team out there. I do believe the 1994 Leafs team was better than the 93 team but Gilmour was to beat up to go any further

I disagree about Jays defence. We were very good except at SS and LF. Those positions, esp SS was costing us but we were very very good everywhere else.
 

AlMo

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The 93 Leafs started like a typical Leaf team. I remember after about ten games they lost to the Sabres in overtime and Burns melted the paint in the dressing room and they got better. They got real better with the Fuhr trade to Buffalo. But lets be honest, that was Gilmours team. When he was on, he was pretty much the best player in the game.

The Jays were an interesting team. Poor coaching, average pitching and a world class offense. The defense was terribad until the deadline in which we were pretty much the best team out there. I do believe the 1994 Leafs team was better than the 93 team but Gilmour was to beat up to go any further

You are absolutely right about the Leafs playing better after the Fuhr deal but their start to the season wasn't so bad it was December when the Leafs went through a skid but they played good hockey after that. Like I said the Leafs were a good team not great. They made the playoffs with little expectations and after the Leafs went down 2-0 to the Wings no one was really surprised.

The 94 edition o the Leafs were better as Gilmour had a lot more support. Clark had 46 goals, Andreychuk played the full season and scored 50 plus, Potvin was an all star goalie. Gilmour didn't have to carry the same load as he did in 93 although he was still outstanding.
 

egd27

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If I understand the question the OP is actually asking, the atmosphere in Toronto around the 93 Leafs was more intense. If I recall correctly, once they got past the Wings, every win spawned impromptu parades on Yonge St. and there was more interest from even those you would categorize as "casual fans".
 

67Cup

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The OP asked me to respond since I had mentioned seeing Keon as a rookie. Obviously, I am of an age to comment on his original question.

I have one problem with the question, however. We left for nine months in a village in France at the height of the pennant race this year. We had some sense of the rising excitement in Toronto and much of the rest of the country but the final weeks and the playoffs themselves were after our departure. The games were in the middle of the night for us, though we did get up a number of times to watch the games on the ESPN simulator. That is a very indirect way of following a game!

I think previous posters have touched on both the similarities and differences between the Jays and the Leafs. I started watching the Leafs in the 1958-59 season. The Leafs had gone through a down period after dominating the league from 1945-51, winning five Cups in seven years and, at that point, having more Cup victories than Montreal. Punch Imlach had taken over the team so a new and more energetic management was in place. A number of young prospects were coming up to or had just joined the big club, most notably Brewer, Keon and Mahovlich. Imlach pulled off one of the most one-sided trades in history, getting Red Kelly for Marc Reaume. Johnny Bower was brought in to play goal after having been buried in the minors for years. There was a tremendous rush of excitement as the Leafs made a near impossible comeback to nip the Rangers for the final playoff spot on the last day of the season.

The Leafs even made the finals that year, but were facing the most dominant team of NHL history, the Richard-Beliveau -Geoffrion etc Habs. Still, there was immense optimism all of a sudden, at least as it seemed to a young boy. It took a while actually to win the Cup, as the Leafs did finally in 1962, They won again in 1963, with one of the two Leafs teams both to finish first overall and win the Cup, and in 1964. Cracks were showing in that last season, however, and Imlach had traded a number of players for aging stars like Andy Bathgate and Don McKinney. Imlach got into a pattern then of trading for veterans on their last legs. The last gasp of that era was the unlikely Cup victory of 1967, with, if I recall correctly, ten regulars 35 years of age or older. By the way, that victory disrupted what might otherwise be remembered as yet another Habs dynasty. If they had defeated the Leafs in 1967, they would have won five Cups in a row yet again. That does bring up an important point re what nearly happened in 1993; many of these years featured great playoff battles with the Habs.

I had followed the Leafs from the doldrums of the 50's to a series of championship seasons. I did something similar with the Jays. I watched them from their inaugural season. They were wretched in those early years but it was fun going to the games anyways, when I was in Toronto. Pat Gillick seemed from the beginning a more than competent GM and it was possible to see the Jays improve as they developed their prospects in the minors, made a number of shrewd trades and careful free agent signings. Not everything worked out - Hello Bill Stoneman! - and it seemed that the Jays were stuck on the almost edge of greatness for a number of seasons before breaking through in 1992 and 93.

The processes of growth and development were similar in both cases. They are similiar also in their lasting effect on me. I can close my eyes to this very day and see George Armstrong laboring down the wing to clinch the 67 Cup with an empty net goal. I can do the same and see Joe Carter leaping with joy around the bases with that 93 home run. "Touch em all, Joe. You'll never hit a bigger home run!" Nor would Tom Cheek ever make a bigger or better call.

For me, with respect to both the 93 Leafs and 2015 Jays, it looked as if the whole wonderful process might repeat itself, as it did with the Leafs of my boyhood and the Jays of my still relatively young adulthood. But both are "not quite" experiences. Close but no cigar, or no champagne.

The two experiences were not the same but were similar. The Leafs had been gradually liberated and brought into modern hockey after the death of Harold Ballard, perhaps the worst owner of a major franchise in the history of sports. With the Jays, it happened all of a sudden. There was a flurry of trades and all of sudden, they looked unbeatable. Another difference is that the 93 Leafs did not affect the whole country the way the '15 Jays did. After all, another Canadian team, Montreal (teeth grinding) actually did win the Cup that year.. That brings up another difference. There is an edge of bitterness about the 93 Leafs' loss that is not there with the Jays. I actually think the Royals were the best team in baseball and I don't feel bitterness about the loss. Maybe if I had still been in the country it would be different, but the truth is, I don't feel bitter. The 93 Leafs Cup run however, headed south after an undeniably blown call at a vital moment. What made it even harder to take for me, with my particular history, was that the loss cost us all what was possibly an all time classic, Leafs-Habs Cup final. Unless the structure of the league changes yet again, we will never see one of those ever again.

Still, I've got over it now and even read Kerry Fraser's column on TSN with pleasure.

The success of the Jays looks as if it may be fleeting. I would be surprised if they Jays are entering another period of sustained excellence. But the Leafs... New management, exciting prospects in the system, after a long stretch of terrible play. Perhaps they call pull off a great trade, as with Red Kelly or Doug Gilmour or a free agent signing, the contemporary equivalent of a great trade. Maybe I've seen this script before. I hope so.
 

BayStreetBully

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^^

Thanks 67cup, that was fantastic! Yes, you touched on pretty much everything and more. I was asking a two-part question which I probably could have expressed more clearly: 1) if the 1993 Leafs brought a young adult back to their childhood of the 60's Leafs, and 2) comparing the excitement of the 1993 Leafs' and 2015 Jays' runs on a more societal level. I find the two parts are connected because it's the passion in the city that I experienced in my childhood with the '93 Jays that allowed me to feel that way again in 2015. The missing link for me is I never grew up with the 60's Leafs so I have no first-hand knowledge, but I would imagine a young adult in 1993 would feel the same as how I felt this past summer.

I suppose the two cases will never be completely the same, because fans in this city continued to follow the Leafs even in the worst of times, whereas we didn't do the same for the Jays. For those growing up in the early 90's, we eventually abandoned the Jays after we lost all hope we could ever compete in the AL East with the skyrocketing payrolls of the Yankees and Red Sox. When you factor in how the MLB playoffs were structured after 1994, it seemed like the Blue Jays/Orioles/Rays were the only teams in all of professional sports who would never have a shot at the playoffs. There was a period of about 20 years in which we did all those things you do in life from roughly ages 10-30, where the Jays didn't register in our minds. They were non-existent. And then you wake up one day and all of a sudden they are back. It was all very cool to see happen.
 

tmlms13

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Jeff Nelson stike two to Revere and Navarro = Kerry Fraser non-high stick

especially Revere's 3-1 vs 2-2, to anyone who plays baseball that is a MASSIVE difference.
 
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LeafsEqualDaBest

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Leafs = Toronto's team, carried across Canada by people who leave Toronto.

Jays = Canada's team.

That's your difference

Believe it or not, I still know quite a few die hard Expos fans across Canada that refuse to cheer for the Jays (not because they dislike the Jays or want to see them lose, but out of sheer respect/sorrow/nostalgia).

I personally think we'd be better off if the Expos came back. I don't like being "Canada's team" (I hate when Canadian franchises pander to us with red maple leafs on their jerseys/hats/logos) and it would be nice to have regional rivalry in baseball again. Plus, we can't deny that their logo was awesome
 

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