ForsbergForever
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- May 19, 2004
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1966-67 Norris winner
- Thread starter ForsbergForever
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19Yzerman19
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- Jul 17, 2004
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Howell was known for being a rock defensively who was stuck on bad teams during his career. He had a career season offensively that year, so combined with his strong defensive play I don't think it's that much of a stretch that he won the Norris.
The fact that his play had been overlooked for so long may have had something to do with it too though, since he was never recognized as an all-star before that season.
The fact that his play had been overlooked for so long may have had something to do with it too though, since he was never recognized as an all-star before that season.
Trottier
Very Random
Because back then, the sports world relied more on WATCHING players than simply dumbing down things to numerical comparisons.
Canadiens Fan
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- Oct 3, 2008
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Combined with what has already been said, keep in mind that the Rangers that year were the surprise team of the year, qualifying for the playoffs for the first time in many a season. Howell that year was clearly the best defensive defensemen in the league and surely was viewed as being one of those most responsible for New York's unexpected success.
Bear of Bad News
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- Sep 27, 2005
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He asked a decent question, and was probably looking for evidence from those who watched Howell play.
There's absolutely no need to be rude or condescending about it.
Unfortunately,his wording might have been harsh but I think his point,especially about defensemen,is valid.
reckoning
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Another factor to consider is that at the time the NHL was still using two rounds of voting to pick it's award winners. One halfway through the season, then a vote at the end of the year for the second half. The two then got added together to determine the final award winner. At the end of the first half of the season, the Rangers were tied for 1st overall and the bulk of the credit went to Howell and Giacomin. Howell had a huge lead in Norris votes for the first half, Pilote won the second half but Howell had more total.
I'm not sure if Howell was truly far better that year than any other season where he wasn't a Norris contender, but it's always been the case that a defensive defenceman won't get much credit unless his team is winning.
A quote from Emile Francis about Howell in that '66-'67 season:
"I felt bad for Harry. He was 35 and I was playing him over 40 minutes a game. He looked half dead skating off some nights, but what could I do? We had no depth."
-Emile Francis ("The Last Hurrah" by Steven Cole pg 241)
I'm not sure if Howell was truly far better that year than any other season where he wasn't a Norris contender, but it's always been the case that a defensive defenceman won't get much credit unless his team is winning.
A quote from Emile Francis about Howell in that '66-'67 season:
"I felt bad for Harry. He was 35 and I was playing him over 40 minutes a game. He looked half dead skating off some nights, but what could I do? We had no depth."
-Emile Francis ("The Last Hurrah" by Steven Cole pg 241)
Crosbyfan
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- Nov 27, 2003
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He asked "why"...given the statistics...but I think (am I going out on a limb here?) that he knew that the statistics he referred to were "numerical comparisons".
Now the "WATCHING players" is pretty a pretty good incite.
I might add GROPE and FEEL the players, and perhaps add LISTEN, SMELL and TASTE, but I think your on to something...WATCHING is the key.
Trottier
Very Random
If my post implied that my UTTER CONTEMPT for fools who cannot articulate a hockey opinion without relying solely on numbers was directed in any way toward the thread opener, I am here to state that it was not.
It was a general comment, an opinion, an honest response to his question. And I stand by it. I understand that I am in a dying minority on HockeysFantasyFuture, in that I draw a distinction between NHL hockey and rotisserie league idiocy. But I'll fight the good fight.
Again, no disrespect intentionally directed toward the poster or his question.
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Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Back then it was a lot easier to watch everyone and compare because with only 6 teams, writers got to see everyone in the league frequently. They probably drank together a lot more also.
pappyline
Registered User
That is bang on. 6 teams & played each team 14 times. To me that gives credance to award winners pre 67. ****, I was ayoung kid back in the 50's & could name the entire lineup on every team. Living in Ontario, the Leafs were always on TV but we saw their opponents many times over the course of the season.
Big Phil
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- Nov 2, 2003
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No, I pretty much agree with what he said. There have been too many times when a defenseman won the Norris based on stats (hello Randy Carlyle). There was a lot more emphasis on the all around play of defensemen at the time. I mean in '81 shoudl Carlyle have won over Potvin? You tell me. Does a couple of points really matter when you have Denis Potvin's all around game coupling with that?
Howell did however acknowledge that the next 10 Norris Trophies would go to Orr, and he was almost right as it was 8. But with all due respect to Howell, while he deserved the Norris that year and was a rock hard defenseman his whole career I think he's a guy that may have slipped under the cracks to get into the HHOF. Just my opinion on the man. He might be among the weakest d-men in the HHOF
Trottier
Very Random
But was it for fans? (I know they don't vote for the Norris, but my comment was directed toward the popular and insufferable Nuuu NHL fan mentality that personal numbers alone should dictate the value of a hockey player.)
I suppose if one had season tickets, yes. Otherwise, no.
If I wish to watch the Original Six on any given night, I flip on NHL Center Ice.
Back then?
Regardless, I assume I'm preaching (mostly) to the choir on the History of Hockey Board, for this is the one refuge where the majority of posters watch and play(ed) the sport. At the risk of sounding elitist and pompous, stick around HF just a bit, and it is pretty easy to decipher who owns a TV and a pair of skates...and who bases opinion on EA Sports and their fantasy league stats.
Personally, I find the latter category of fan harmless...unless of course, you wish to conduct an engaging conversation about the NHL.
Sorry, don't mean to hijack this topic of Harry Howell.
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pappyline
Registered User
Back in the original six days, the writers travelled with the teams. They saw the games. As far as the casual fan goes, we saw it on TV but we saw a lot. Every sat night we saw the Leafs play somebody.But was it for fans? (I know they don't vote for the Norris, but my comment was directed toward the popular and insufferable modern-day fan mentality that personal numbers alone should dictate the value of a hockey player.)
I suppose if one had season tickets, yes. Otherwise, no.
If I wish to watch the Original Six on any given night, I flip on NHL Center Ice.
Back then?
Regardless, I assume I'm preaching (mostly) to the choir on the History of Hockey Board, for this is the one refuge where the majority of posters watch and play(ed) the sport. At the risk of sounding elitist and pompous, stick around HF just a bit, and it is pretty easy to decipher who owns a TV and a pair of skates...and who bases opinion on EA Sports and their fantasy league stats.
Personally, I find the latter category of fan harmless...unless of course, you wish to conduct an engaging conversation about the NHL.
Sorry, don't mean to hijack this topic of Harry Howell.
Trottier
Very Random
pappyline
Registered User
In Ontario we did. Funny thing is that until 1960 we never saw the habs a lot except for the playoffs because Sat night was also a Hab home game. This changed in 60 when they started to show Habs/Leafs games on Wed nights. We Canadian kids knew ever player on every team and 99% of the players were Canadian.
Trottier
Very Random
Hell, I knew every player on the California Golden Seals back in the day...and I grew up in the NYC area!
pappyline
Registered User
That's kind of interesting. You started watching in the 70's & knew the lineup of the Seals. Now in 1972 there were 20 plus teams between the NHL & WHA , Did you kbow the lineup of them all. Just curious.Hell, I knew every player on the California Golden Seals back in the day...and I grew up in the NYC area!
Trottier
Very Random
Not WHA, but certainly most of the NHL. Not much else to do at a young age, you know? Funniest thing I remember about the Seals was that fans at the Garden had a (sarcastic) fanclub for Morris Mott, an obscure winger for that team. Why? I have no idea. Seals visited the Garden infrequently and Mott is about as random a player you'll ever find in NHL history. Rangers blew out the Seals 12-3 once at the Garden, early 70s...to this day I believe their highest scoring game ever.
That said, I did meet the second leading scoring in the WHA its inaugural year, during that season. Ron Ward, center for the New Jersey Raiders (coached by Camille Henry), at a local youth clinic. Also attended a Raiders game at the Garden. That was an interesting league, to say the league. Dark blue pucks!
If I'm not mistaken Harry Howell played in the WHA...bringing this thread full circle.
Memories.
Big Phil
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MXD
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- Oct 27, 2005
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I never saw any of them play, but I really wonder why some wonders about Harry Howell creditentials without wondering about Allan Stanley credidentials... Basically, Stanley was inducted because he was an excellent #2, while Howell was a go-to guy for quite a big part of his career.
In 2008 we look at Howell's induction in the context of all HOF defenseman yet in 79 the HHOF had not yet inducted Park,Potvin,Robinson,LaPointe,Salming,Fetisov,Langway,Bourque,Coffey,Murphy,Macinnes or Stevens.
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