GDT: 151205 Bolts @ Sharks 7:30pm CSN-CA KFOX -- bring a toy for Marine's Toys for Tots

[Barrie22]

I think i understand, stalock is the only goalie in the nhl to face hard shots every game, it has to be the only reason to explain him being one of the worst goalies in the nhl statistically speaking this season.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The first goal went right between his legs, had he been in position it should have been stopped, regardless that Burns was faked out of pants and looked terrible on the play.

Are you kidding me here? The first goal was a shot heading to the glove side that deflected off Martin. You're living in fantasy land if you believe that is stoppable.

I realize that you are probably reaching back to the original post, but a larger goalie is usually a better option than a smaller one. Unless of course it is an ahl goalie playing in the nhl, which would make him an nhl goalie right?

Yet another pointless question that adds nothing to the argument.

 

[Alwalys]

I think i understand, stalock is the only goalie in the nhl to face hard shots every game, it has to be the only reason to explain him being one of the worst goalies in the nhl statistically speaking this season.

no kidding right. the sharks don't even have close to the worst defense this year.

 

[Bleedred]

Ward, Quick, Thomas?

Ward has never been an elite goalie. He has that playoff run and 4 good seasons between 08-09 and 11-12 where he's been good. He's been awful since then and completely fell off.

And with all due respect to Pinkfloyd, I'm not sure how you can't fault Stalock on the last goal allowed last night.

He appeared to have it under control, he really shouldn't have lost it. Now that could have happened to any goaltender, it's happened to almost every goaltender to play a fair amount of NHL games, many of them multiple times in their career. But there's been a lot of goals that really should have been stopped. Even if I cut him a break for that one, there's been at least 5 or 6 other bad ones allowed by him this season. Now you expect a goaltender to allow some weak goals, Jones has absolutely allowed a few of his own. But if Stalock stopped 75% of the bad ones, his play would be fairly respectable right now. Or maybe even above average right now.

I think it's a waste to defend a goaltender with an .898 save percentage since the start of last season. All Sharks goaltenders not named Stalock have a .915+ in that time. I also don't believe that a team has a negative effect on poor play of a goalie over that long of a stretch. For a few games? Absolutely. Not over almost a 30 game stretch though.

I can think of at least 2 bad ones allowed by Stalock in the NYI game in Brooklyn, the shot against NYI at home (which I believe was clean from the opposite blue line?) are the 3 really bad ones off the top of my head, I'm gonna ding him on the fourth goal against last night too. That's 4 right there, I know there was definitely at least 2 others this season. I'm not gonna say he should have stopped all 6 of the bad ones, but I think he should have stopped at least 4 of those bad ones.

4 fewer goals for a goaltender that has 19 goals against this season and has given up 19 on 164 shots is pretty significant.

And one more thing. If a Ducks or Kings goaltender has an .884 save percentage on the season or an .898 over the last two seasons, I think most people here would be laughing and making fun of them.

 

[Bleedred]

I just watched the goal and in slow motion, he had it between his legs and just did a poor job of keeping track of it.

Goal 1 was a deflection, goal 2 shouldn't have counted, goal 3 went off his arm but I would have a hard time faulting him for that one. It was a good shot.

Goal 4 I would say is one that should have been stopped. There's obviously a lot of people who are saying he should have stopped 3 of the 4 goals, that I absolutely do not agree with. But I strongly believe he should get some of the blame for goal number 4 because he lost track of the puck when he had it. I think most goaltenders would agree that they could have done a better job on that one, even if they won't admit it publicly.

I was one of the ones critical of the Jones trade, I also mentioned that he hadn't really proven more in his NHL career than Stalock had up to that point. Both were great in 13-14, both were bad in 14-15. And both years were as backups for both.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I was one of the ones critical of the Jones trade, I also mentioned that he hadn't really proven more in his NHL career than Stalock had up to that point. Both were great in 13-14, both were bad in 14-15. And both years were as backups for both.

I know this is a little off-topic, but that wasn't a smart evaluation in my book. The HUGE differences were age and AHL stats. Stalock is three years older, and whereas Jones has good AHL numbers, Stalock was a below average AHL goaltender.

If Stalock hadn't gotten that major injury, it would be a whole other ballgame. But the fact is that Stalock was pretty bad in the AHL. That made it far less likely that his sample size in the NHL would continue compared to Jones'.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I still haven't seen a compelling argument to blame any of those goals on Stalock, but it's simply cyclical at this point.

 

[Bleedred]

I know this is a little off-topic, but that wasn't a smart evaluation in my book. The HUGE differences were age and AHL stats. Stalock is three years older, and whereas Jones has good AHL numbers, Stalock was a below average AHL goaltender.

If Stalock hadn't gotten that major injury, it would be a whole other ballgame. But the fact is that Stalock was pretty bad in the AHL. That made it far less likely that his sample size in the NHL would continue compared to Jones'.

I always acknowledged that Jones had the better AHL numbers, was 3 years younger and just had the all around better ceiling overall. I never lacked confidence in Jones beating out Stalock for the starting job, but I still maintain that it was a gamble for a goaltender that hadn't proven to be significantly better at the NHL.

BUT! Jones has still performed miles better than last season and an even higher amount of miles better than Stalock this year, behind the same ''Bad defense'' or what have you.

I still haven't seen a compelling argument to blame any of those goals on Stalock, but it's simply cyclical at this point.

I think this board was VERY hard on Niemi and even Stalock and other goaltenders in past years. It really wasn't warranted most of the time IMO. I feel like with Stalock, it's more warranted and very justifiable.

Niemi wasn't a great goaltender, he wasn't a bad one either. He was the kind of goaltender that wasn't gonna cost a very good team a playoff spot, but at the same time he was not good enough to get a mediocre or average team into the playoffs. He probably was a huge reason for making the playoffs in the lockout year, I'll give him that. But Ray Emery was also good that year for the Blackhawks, which was a complete fluke and anomaly. Same with Carey Price being garbage that season.

You can blame the defense, but no one can convince me this team has a worse defense/team defense/whatever than a team like Edmonton or Buffalo. Every goaltender to play for Buffalo last year had a save percentage well over 90% and they were one of the worst teams in recent memory.

The goaltenders that are the worst in the league statistically are usually backed up by the eye test as well. Mike Smith gives up brutal goals almost every game, last week's center ice goal was one of many. Cam Ward's awfully disgusting performance at MSG last week is another example, and Jonas Hiller is always good for a 5 hole special almost every other game. All these guys play on bad teams, so without watching their play it's easy to think ''Oh he only sucks because he plays on a brutal team with no defense''. Ryan Miller was one of the worst starters in the league last year (not quite as bad as Ward or Smith though) and when he got injured, Lack played much better and Vancouver was a playoff team. They were even well positioned in a playoff spot before Miller got hurt and was playing mediocre to begin with. Last year's Buffalo was a horrendous team and they got respectable goaltending at the worst. They were trading away goaltenders to try to get even worse ones to ensure a last place finish, because the other ones were performing too well. Cory Schneider on last year's Devils was one of the best in the league, Steve Mason on last year's Flyers. Team was brutal and he faced well over 30 shots and led the league in even strength save percentage. Ottawa usually manages to get great goaltending, I call them Outshottawa because they're outshot damn near every game. Montreal has been badly outshot the last few years. But since those two teams make the playoffs, these teams aren't looked at as ''Bad'' teams with ''Bad'' defense.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

That's not an argument for blaming the goals against on Stalock last night. You're going to be hard-pressed to have a reasonable argument for blaming any of those goals on Stalock.

 

[Bleedred]

That's not an argument for blaming the goals against on Stalock last night. You're going to be hard-pressed to have a reasonable argument for blaming any of those goals on Stalock.

Why shouldn't he be blamed at all for the fourth goal? He had it between he legs and did a poor job keeping track of it.

Should he be forgiven? Sure. Has it happened to virtually every goalie that's played? Sure.

But there's been at least a half a dozen bad goals he's allowed this year alone. If he makes just 4 more saves this year, his save percentage is a respectable .909 on the season.

And unless you won't blame barely any goal on a goaltender, I'm comfortable with tagging him for approximately a half dozen bad goals allowed this season.

Jones has probably allowed more than that, but he's played quite a few more games.

I'm sorry, but I've seen a lot of ''Stoppable'' or ''Weak'' ''bad'' ''saveable'' whatever you wanna call goals scored on Stalock since the start of last season.

And even when he hasn't been beaten on weak goals that should have been stopped, he's sometimes been prone to flopping around and isn't great positionally. I'm not speaking of last night's game on that, but there have been times in the past.

It's like Ondrej Pavelec. You might look at him and be like ''Yeah he doesn't give up many stoppable shots, I'm not sure why he's so bad?'' but the reality is that Pavelec's beaten on a lot shots by being out of position and breakdancing in the crease, and he's just not good at it like Brodeur or Hasek were. I wouldn't say that's a common problem with Stalock, but it's another part I've noticed in his game.

And why did Stalock have a .932 save percentage in 2013-2014? Am I to believe that the defense was THAT much better that season than these last two?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Probably because he didn't have it between his legs and it's not a realistic expectation in that situation for him to be able to track something that isn't there. The bounce of the puck went off his knee pads, off the knob of his stick, and past his right leg pad while he was coming across on a poke check to stop a partial break which he did. The only way he's going to know if the puck is not in his gear given the puck bouncing off his knee pads but not between his legs is if the puck popped in front of him or one of his d-men communicates to him that it's out which nobody did because Dillon cruised past the net, didn't pick up his man, and was way out of position from helping his goalie.

The pointing to stats and other bad goals is just a distraction from reasonably discussing these goals.

 

[Bleedred]

Probably because he didn't have it between his legs and it's not a realistic expectation in that situation for him to be able to track something that isn't there. The bounce of the puck went off his knee pads, off the knob of his stick, and past his right leg pad while he was coming across on a poke check to stop a partial break which he did. The only way he's going to know if the puck is not in his gear given the puck bouncing off his knee pads but not between his legs is if the puck popped in front of him or one of his d-men communicates to him that it's out which nobody did because Dillon cruised past the net, didn't pick up his man, and was way out of position from helping his goalie.

The pointing to stats and other bad goals is just a distraction from reasonably discussing these goals.

There's usually a mistake on almost every play though. You can blame a skater on any shot on goal that happens, if you really wanna get technical. Including that one from the opposite blue line that Stalock allowed a few weeks back. I'm currently in the middle of reviewing all of the goals against that Stalock has allowed this season. I'm only onto the third goal against in Dallas, which the Dallas commentators remarked on him playing that one poorly.

So far I've counted one or two bad ones against NYI and one bad one against Dallas. That was on a wraparound. Now there was an error by a skater on all of these, and I'm dinging him on ones that I feel were stoppable. Whether they were high quality or not.

The NYI game in Brooklyn I wasn't sure if I should ding him for one or two. If you believe that he intentionally knocked off his mask in that game, then I'd count that against him. It was a wraparound from the goal line. If you don't believe he knocked him helmet off, then I wouldn't count it against him. Fifth goal against was a nice shot, but appeared to beat him between the arm and the body. Not a brutal goal by any means, but something I feel he should have stopped. High quality opportunity for sure, but still something I feel could have been stopped. Goal number 4 against in the NYI game was a wraparound, but I clearly remember it going off a stick and deflected. So I didn't ding him for that one.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

That's still just running more distractions instead of focusing the conversation on the goals themselves. You still haven't made an argument as to why he should be blamed for that goal. He made the initial stop on a partial break. If it squeaks through, a goalie must rely on his teammates to help clean up the loose pucks.

 

[hohosaregood]

Holy crap what a pointlessly ticky tacky argument this has all been.

Fact of the matter is that Stalock is a below average NHL goalie right now and no extra playing time or better defense in front of him or extra luck is gonna make him better than that. He had some that were debatably less his fault than normal but so far, what we're seeing is that the team can't count on him to save them at all. No defense in the league could stop all the dangerous shots or 50/50 chances and if Stalock can't be counted on to stop some of those then he shouldn't be playing.

 

[Bleedred]

Went back and reviewed all 19 goals Stalock has allowed.

First of all, I need to correct myself on the NYI home goal being from the opposite blue line. It was not from the opposite blue line, it was from just on the other side of the blue line in the Sharks zone. Not sure why I thought it was past center ice.

It was still one of the worst goals I've seen allowed all season. There no screen or deflection, not even barely a hop on the ice.

I actually only counted 4 bad goals that I think he should have stopped. 2 in the first NYI game, the goal from beyond the blue line in the NYI home, and I'm still gonna say last night's 4th goal should be one that could have been stopped.

Typically I think a good goaltender might allow 20-25 somewhat stoppable shots for every 100 goals allowed. Of course it's not a general rule of thumb though. So if Stalock stops 3 of the 4 bad ones, like all 3 bad goals over the two NYI games, he's got a .902 save percentage on the year. Which isn't good, but isn't absolutely horrendous with only 7 games played and 6 starts on the season. I thought about striking the first goal he allowed all season against him, but he appeared screened on the play. It looked like he might not have been completely screened or even decently screened, but I won't count that one. There was also a couple where I felt he threw himself prematurely out of position and panicked. I'm not gonna count them as bad goals, but one that maybe would have been stopped by more positional goalies.

Brandon Pirri's one timer power play goal against Florida was kind of borderline. I felt he was slow getting across the crease, but didn't tag him on that one. It would have been kind of unfair on a one time power play goal. There was no way he would have been able to be in position for that shot when it was initially taken.

On the contrary though, if Stalock manages a 30 save shutout in his next game, it brings him up to a .902 save percentage for the season. But he hasn't been able to play a game in which he's allowed fewer than 2 goals this season, at least not in a start. He played most of the NYI home game and gave up just one on 21 shots, it was that really ugly one though.

 

[Bleedred]

Holy crap what a pointlessly ticky tacky argument this has all been.

Fact of the matter is that Stalock is a below average NHL goalie right now and no extra playing time or better defense in front of him or extra luck is gonna make him better than that. He had some that were debatably less his fault than normal but so far, what we're seeing is that the team can't count on him to save them at all. No defense in the league could stop all the dangerous shots or 50/50 chances and if Stalock can't be counted on to stop some of those then he shouldn't be playing.

To be fair, I think he's better than the .884 goaltender that we've seen this season. I'd at least hope so, even Ray Emery was better than that these last 8 years and he was the worst goaltender in the league. But he also managed to eek out a .920+ and 20+ win season in 12-13 and finished in 6th in Vezina voting. Flukes do happen. Carey Price was straight up trash that season too, if that doesn't tell you it was a fluke and an anomaly.

I'm not sure if he's better than the lower .900's goaltender that we saw last season though. Coming into this season, I was middle of the road on him. I thought he probably wasn't as good as we saw in the 13-14 season, but also not as bad as we saw in the 14-15 season. Somewhere in between that.

More starts might tilt him the other way and make the numbers rise a little bit, though I have serious doubts that they come close to the goaltending that Niemi and Jones have been putting up these last two seasons.

 

[Alwalys]

Went back and reviewed all 19 goals Stalock has allowed.

First of all, I need to correct myself on the NYI home goal being from the opposite blue line. It was not from the opposite blue line, it was from just on the other side of the blue line in the Sharks zone. Not sure why I thought it was past center ice.

It was still one of the worst goals I've seen allowed all season. There no screen or deflection, not even barely a hop on the ice.

I actually only counted 4 bad goals that I think he should have stopped. 2 in the first NYI game, the goal from beyond the blue line in the NYI home, and I'm still gonna say last night's 4th goal should be one that could have been stopped.

Typically I think a good goaltender might allow 20-25 somewhat stoppable shots for every 100 goals allowed. Of course it's not a general rule of thumb though. So if Stalock stops 3 of the 4 bad ones, like all 3 bad goals over the two NYI games, he's got a .902 save percentage on the year. Which isn't good, but isn't absolutely horrendous with only 7 games played and 6 starts on the season. I thought about striking the first goal he allowed all season against him, but he appeared screened on the play. It looked like he might not have been completely screened or even decently screened, but I won't count that one. There was also a couple where I felt he threw himself prematurely out of position and panicked. I'm not gonna count them as bad goals, but one that maybe would have been stopped by more positional goalies.

Brandon Pirri's one timer power play goal against Florida was kind of borderline. I felt he was slow getting across the crease, but didn't tag him on that one. It would have been kind of unfair on a one time power play goal. There was no way he would have been able to be in position for that shot when it was initially taken.

On the contrary though, if Stalock manages a 30 save shutout in his next game, it brings him up to a .902 save percentage for the season. But he hasn't been able to play a game in which he's allowed fewer than 2 goals this season, at least not in a start. He played most of the NYI home game and gave up just one on 21 shots, it was that really ugly one though.

That is some serious dedication to critical analysis. Kudos, but that's time you'll never have back

That said one of stalock's major problems is he is small and not a particularly good positional goalie. I think with the skill level in the league today, you have to be a large positional goalie to compete. You just have to stop pucks you have no way of seeing or predicting, and stalock is too small to do that, he has to react to everything. He may in fact not be better than a sub-.900 goalie in today's NHL. a few years back that wasn't so bad but take a look at what's happening with goaltenders ... martin jones is 22nd among all goalies with a .923 sv%! about half above him are starters and half backups. So suffice to say so far this season goaltending has been kind of insane. So much so that it's kind of a problem. but it makes an .884 goalie utterly dreadful.

 

[stator]

Are you kidding me here? The first goal was a shot heading to the glove side that deflected off Martin. You're living in fantasy land if you believe that is stoppable.

I did not see that watching the play.

Stalock had a clear view and was following the shooter with no problem. It did deflect off Martin that lowered shot velocity, and Martin was far enough away to give time for Stalock to block it. This deflected shot was one of the more easier ones.

NHL goalies have to block deflected shots. It's just a fact of life being in the NHL.

I know you have enthusiasm for Stalock to succeed as we all do. However, Stalock still has not shown any ability above being a moderate, backup goalie in the NHL. True, there's been some great games, and some blocked shots that were terrific, but all goalies have done that. Good goalies consistently do that, whether they are the backup or starting goalie.

That said one of stalock's major problems is he is small and not a particularly good positional goalie. I think with the skill level in the league today, you have to be a large positional goalie to compete. You just have to stop pucks you have no way of seeing or predicting, and stalock is too small to do that, he has to react to everything. He may in fact not be better than a sub-.900 goalie in today's NHL. a few years back that wasn't so bad but take a look at what's happening with goaltenders ...

Good point. NHL lists Alex Stalocks physical stats as 6'0" and 190lbs. That's small per NHL standards. Alex has to move quicker and precisely to block the same area of the net as the larger ones.

The NHL is looking at making changes to goalie equipment to increase goal scoring. One aspect is the size of the upper body padding. The general rule are these pads can be no larger than what's necessary for player safety. Interpreting that can be subjective, and I don't know how the NHL staff that measures and decides on this do it consistently.

You can see goalies are pushing the boundaries of this. Some more than others. I brought up Corey Crawford as one when the Hawks last visited the tank. Stalock is another one. Contrast that with Martin Jones and you will see. It will be interesting to see the NHL's recommendations, what changes they will make to the rules if any, and how will they accomplish objective evaluation/measurement.

 

[magic school bus]

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=72667

Halak is tiny as hell and he can make those saves. Stalock just isn't a good goalie.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I did not see that watching the play.

Stalock had a clear view and was following the shooter with no problem. It did deflect off Martin that lowered shot velocity, and Martin was far enough away to give time for Stalock to block it. This deflected shot was one of the more easier ones.

NHL goalies have to block deflected shots. It's just a fact of life being in the NHL.

I know you have enthusiasm for Stalock to succeed as we all do. However, Stalock still has not shown any ability above being a moderate, backup goalie in the NHL. True, there's been some great games, and some blocked shots that were terrific, but all goalies have done that. Good goalies consistently do that, whether they are the backup or starting goalie.

haha...you have unrealistic expectations of the goaltending position if you believe this. It's mindsets like this that make it impossible to truly discuss the position because a lot of people think like you do that have unrealistic expectations of the position and then tend to scapegoat them when they fail to live up to them.

 

[Juxtaposer]

haha...you have unrealistic expectations of the goaltending position if you believe this. It's mindsets like this that make it impossible to truly discuss the position because a lot of people think like you do that have unrealistic expectations of the position and then tend to scapegoat them when they fail to live up to them.

It's not unrealistic to expect Stalock to post a save percentage over .900.

 

[hohosaregood]

It's not unrealistic to expect Stalock to post a save percentage over .900.

Pretty much. Holistically, Stalock's five hole is a gaping wide hole that he barely covers mostly because of the style of play he employs due to his size.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's not unrealistic to expect Stalock to post a save percentage over .900.

Except that isn't the same thing as what this is. That's moving the goal posts on the argument of what he should have had in the game he played. If all you can say about his play in the game is that well he should have a .900 save percentage or more, you lose context of the game itself and what is a realistic expectation for him to stop.

That's arguing numbers...not arguing the game.

 

[LeeIFBB]

Stalock needs to get in his DeLorean to go back the year 1985.

 

[Alwalys]

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=72667

Halak is tiny as hell and he can make those saves. Stalock just isn't a good goalie.

yeah if you're small you have to be better than average just to be average. stalock is worse than average so ...