GDT: 15 // 11 Nov // Stars @ Coyotes

[XX]

The whole losing identity thing is so overblown. Only McMillan, Boedker, and Gormley are really fighting for new contracts. Everyone else has their value comfortably established or is signed. The problem this year was not enough hunger. Don even came out and admitted they misjudged the mix.

That is, if you believe him. I just think he is pressing the other button in the hopes it saves his job, the same as Tippett.

Both will be lucky to survive the season if it continues to trend the way it is now.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I really am on board with this line of thinking. I don't think you'll find any posts from me clamoring for prospects instead of giving ice time to defensively sound veterans. The problem is that three of the veteran guys we are giving top nine ice time to have no business being anywhere north of the 4th line. If there was any evidence that Chipchura would not "take themselves out of sound defensive positioning or other fundamentals that can lead to giving up more goals?" in the same way that Gordon or Fiddler or some of the other excellent bottom six forwards we've had in the past would not, then I'd be fine. But Chipchura is out of position and turns over the puck (mainly by overhandling it) all the damn time. I don't think the difference between Chipchura overhandling the puck and Hodgman overhandling the puck is offset at all by any great defensively play coming out of Chip. And Hodgman is going to produce more on offense. If it was Gordon vs Hodgman, the equation changes dramatically. I'd still want to ease Hodgman into the lineup, but I understand what Gordon brings to the table and how valuable that is. Vitale isn't quite as good as Gordon, imo, but I don't think you've seen many people asking that Vitale get scratched for Hodgman or Lessio, etc. He contributes something to the roster, even if it's only on the 4th line and the pk.
We have several other guys that aren't contributing anything but carbon dioxide to this team. They aren't sound defensively -- have you seen the last two seasons? Even when they were successful early last season they were horrid defensively. It's hard to convince myself that they would be substantially worse on defense with Hodgman, Rieder and Lessio in the lineup than they are with Chipchura, Moss, Crombeen and Klink. Moss is the only half reliable one of that crew. Klink is alright when he's on. The other two are just there. Hodgman, Rieder, and Lessio are going to score more goals than the scrubs. We have no offense.

Bottom line is: I think we're a better team with offensive young players with defensive warts than we are with old, comfortable veterans with defensive warts.

Yeah I can understand where you are saying that we would be substantially worse on defense with the newer players. Probably not substantially worse, but it may mean that we get caught in moments where the younger players actually create more negative situations b/c they have not been a part of winning by staying the course.

Looking at the team between 09-12 seasons, even when we got down or up, we still played a very similar style. No one on the team was overly worried or ecstatic when we fell down by 2 or went up by 2. I feel like that has changed dramatically over the past few years, and if younger players were on the roster right now, they may feel more pressure to "change their game" slightly if things are not going well.

Regardless of the talent level on the ice, Lessio, Hodgman, and Reider would still have to make the plays that Klink, Chip, and others aren't doing right now, and by others, that is not just limited to the bottom 6 guys, either. I don't know if they are capable of picking up that slack enough to where the entire team turns around. Or, we get them built up so that when they are regular contributors, they stick to their roles and play above and beyond in doing that role well, rather than throwing too much at them.

Tough situation to be in, all around.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Losing our identity? Our identity has been lost for damn near as long the lindbergh baby. We haven't been a strong forechecking, defensively responsible hard working team for two seasons prior to this one, and its gotten worse each year. It's not getting better its getting worse every year, every month, every game. Our identity these last two years plus this one to me is best summed up as wildly inconsistent play with frequent poor effort shown, and frequent giant mistakes resulting in goals against that don't get corrected.

Different players may not be the answer, but the current ones and the current system are definitely the wrong answer.

And before you blame the roster solely on maloney remember he only signed moss at tippetts request, and tip had a large say in the ribeiro signing too, tip very much shoulders some of the blame. That doesn't absolve don of course, he should've stopped listening to tip after the ribeiro debacle. Edited some autocorrect mistakes.

You misread what I was saying - losing our identity (the verb form) is different than a "losing identity" (noun form).

We are mired in a losing identity (noun) b/c we wind up giving up the first goal far too often, and struggle to fight back.

Losing our identity can happen, but you can still get results from that change. Remember the first 20 games of last year, our identity was to let the offense carry the torch, whereas the prior seasons it was defense that did so. We had a winning record with an identity change, but eventually it came full circle and we couldn't always pull the rabbit out of the hat as we did in the first 20 games.

In a way, losing our identity has now created a losing identity for this team...

 

[Matias Maccete]

To me it's not even so much that the young guys would turn the team around right away or anything. The very very very most optimistic guess would be if hank lessio and hodge and all play really well we maybe sneak into the pkayoffs. Maybe.

But if they were to play we could see some improvement in their game. Despite what tip and maloney say no prospect comes into the league ready to play right away. they're going to have to adjust to nhl speed, so why not get some of that done now when we have a lost season anyway, and when the guys they'd be replacing are garbage? If the only reason is financial, then it's still on tip and maloney anyway for resigning moss and the ribeiro signing and buyout.

 

[_Del_]

I love lunch pail players. Like Gordon, Vitale, etc. You don't have to convince me of their worth. Some of my favorite players when the Coyotes came to town, and I started following them in addition to the Hawks, were Bob Corkum, Juha Ylonen, Whitey Stapleton, etc. Those were guys good in their zone, who sacrificed their bodies all the time, and contributed on the PK. Corkum was a top PK guy, hit hard, was great on the dot, and had a nice wrister. Ylonen was fast, gritty, and defensively sound with hands of stone. Stapleton was great positionally and shifty. They were grind it out guys.
Our current crew are nowhere near as good (save Vitale and maybe McMillan). Even if they were as good, I imagine if Schoeney had played Bob Corkum on the second line, while Isbister was a scratch I would have had a fit about that too. If Stapleton or someone similar was getting regular ice time in the top nine, while Handzus and Nagy and Kilger were young scratches I would not have been happy about that either.
I include Kilger, because noone knew what we had in him at the time, but hopes were high he'd be a great 2nd line guy like Hanzal/Handzus. And we could be just as wrong about, say Lessio or any of the other names as we were about Kilger. There are a million things that can screw up a development curve (Mueller, etc). Our guys could all be busts, but how do you know until they get an actual opportunity? They've proven what they've needed to at other levels. Now they have to get ice time to develop at the next level. Without being so afraid of making a mistake that they forget to play their game.
I don't care that Tippett doesn't believe that. There are 30 some odd franchises in the league, and I've never heard another coach say there is zero room for development at the NHL level. Even the other veteran-favoring coaches at least say the right things. That'd be great in New York or Toronto. That a team in our situation is publicly saying that is nothing short of tragically short-sighted.

 

[KG]

The whole losing identity thing is so overblown. Only McMillan, Boedker, and Gormley are really fighting for new contracts. Everyone else has their value comfortably established or is signed. The problem this year was not enough hunger. Don even came out and admitted they misjudged the mix.

That is, if you believe him. I just think he is pressing the other button in the hopes it saves his job, the same as Tippett.

Both will be lucky to survive the season if it continues to trend the way it is now.

So you think our guys are solely motivated by contracts? If so, I want athletes on our team that are motivated by winning.

 

[The Grocery Stick]

I love lunch pail players. Like Gordon, Vitale, etc. You don't have to convince me of their worth. Some of my favorite players when the Coyotes came to town, and I started following them in addition to the Hawks, were Bob Corkum, Juha Ylonen, Whitey Stapleton, etc. ....

Wow. I have lived to read someone write "Juha Ylonen" in a sentence...I love this place.

 

[Matias Maccete]

You misread what I was saying - losing our identity (the verb form) is different than a "losing identity" (noun form).

We are mired in a losing identity (noun) b/c we wind up giving up the first goal far too often, and struggle to fight back.

Losing our identity can happen, but you can still get results from that change. Remember the first 20 games of last year, our identity was to let the offense carry the torch, whereas the prior seasons it was defense that did so. We had a winning record with an identity change, but eventually it came full circle and we couldn't always pull the rabbit out of the hat as we did in the first 20 games.

In a way, losing our identity has now created a losing identity for this team...

Ah, gotcha. I'm not sure we have a losing identity so much as we just aren't very good. To me the whole losing identity thing implies we're only losing because of the culture, not lack of talent, and again I think we're losing because we lack skill up front and consistent effort and defensive play. I'm not sure everyone thinks of losing culture that way though.

 

[_Del_]

Wow. I have lived to read someone write "Juha Ylonen" in a sentence...I love this place.

Mika Alatalo, Jyrki Lumme, and of course Teppo. We had our fair share of Finns back then.

 

[rt]

Don't forget Ossi Vaananen!

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Wow. I have lived to read someone write "Juha Ylonen" in a sentence...I love this place.

15 years ago I carpooled with a guy from Newfoundland, who always called him "Yahoo Ylonen" .. (he also would never say "Bobby Smith", but rather "The Man With the Cat on His Head", a toupee reference)

 

[_Del_]

Don't forget Ossi Vaananen!

Yikes! How could I? He looked to be a mean top 4 dman before he got hit by that car.

 

[MP]

I don't know why you're so upset about the dive. I thought it was nice of him to put over Murphy's crosscheck like that. I daresay that sell was Shawn Michaels-like. Pretty soon, nobody's gonna want to be in the slot with him. Mark my words.