Post-Game Talk (GBU): #14 The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly: It's getting worse.

[JThorne]

I hope that continues. We need a top six forward who can skate and score.....

That was supposed to be Kane.

 

[Der Jaeger]

The thing is... they want to play this style. Bylsma in particular... this seems to be style they want to use to eek out points in every game to keep "in it" until Eichel/Bogosian/Ennis come back because they don't believe they (and more specifically Bylsma) can win consistently playing open ice hockey with the current roster.

They are severely missing a back end QB. Can be a lefty like everyone wants (maybe that is McCabe or Guhle, but I doubt it), or a UFA (Shattenkirk???) but it is the main priority of this team. I would prefer a lefty that could slot below Risto, cut down his minutes a bit and put Bogosian on the 3rd pair and have a really nice defense that way.

This team is just trying to stay afloat right now.

I think Shattenkirk is an option. The draft might be weaker than 2016 and 2015, but there are plenty of PP QB defensemen even after Liljegren's gone. Hague, Brannstrom, Heiskanen, and Salo are available in round one. Hedberg and Westerlund are available in round two. Lots of possibilities.

 

[Snippit]

Our lack of ES production over the last two years has been concerning.

However, they've still collected 50% of the points available to them, and given the injuries they've had...I would have taken that deal at the start of the year.

Look at the defense core we iced tonight...be happy we came out with a point.

 

[Icicle]

kinda hard to score goals when the third winger in the offensive zone sits behind his defenseman on the red line waiting for his linemates to cough it up so he can attack the breakout after they've already broken the zone

 

[Shmuffalo]

Their play as a whole isn't bad, but they can't score for ****.

So offensively, they're not good, though, they're not bad... it's just ugly; er boring. That's better: Boring.

 

[ForsbergMoDo21]

I agree that this team is painfully boring to watch. This grinding low percentage eek-every-win-out style is only tolerable when a team is winning more games than not and/or in the playoffs.

It's sad when the AHL line has been looking like one of the best the last few games, and it's really sad that of all the people on the team, Ristolainen is the only one willing to ****ing drop his shoulder and take the puck to the net. Murray came in and talked about building a big heavy team wanting to emulate the Kings of the last five years, but they play like a bunch of pansies. To me it comes off as a sign of a team that's so overcoached to keep everything simple and safe that they're all afraid to make a play (and I do believe that some of these players are capable of making individual plays). Star talent is meaningless if they aren't allowed to do anything other than chip, chase, cycle, turnover, repeat.

And the defense it not nearly good enough for their entire offensive strategy to be cycle until you get a weak point shot. They don't hit the net, and the "heavy" team has been completely ineffective as far as net front presence and battling for tips and rebounds. For all the flak Reinhart takes for being weak, it's telling that he's the only goddamn one who's had any consistent success in front of the net in the last year.

 

[wunderpanda]

Going for some extra optimism because of some Armistice Day perspective.

G- Sabres didn't get shut out!
- Sabres got a point !
- the team defense compensated well enough for all the injuries
- Nilsson wasn't a drop-off from Lehner. Might be better at tracking the puck and controlling rebounds too.
- PK is very good
- Moulson scored on the powerplay
- Bylsma squeezing points out of the dilapidated roster he's been saddled with

B- ROR injured, Ennis out for months
- probably just me, but really don't like Kane with Okposo, they negate each other somehow
- Sabres scoring woes continued

U- nearly a 3rd (25.3m) of the projected team cap (72.2m) are unable to play. That includes McCormick, the Hodgson buyout and all the dings including ROR leaving early. Don't try to read anything into that, was just pointing it out.

 

[Oakstream]

Ah yes another boring 2-1 game. Havent seen enough of those these last few years

 

[Royisgone]

We've found a way to get half points while Eichel is out, and that's much better than I expected early on.

My concern is there is not enough team here, even if Eichel comes back. We've been through a world of hurt for a long time now, and we are not coming out the back end of it as strong as I would have liked.

I recommend doing something else while watching the games, as one might do with a baseball game. It helps a lot.

 

[JLewyB]

G: this team roster shouldn't be coming away with point(s) every game but they are.

I liked the FLaG line.

Nelson and Falk weren't a tire fire.

Love Baptiste; always been bullish on him. That line was good too.

First period was fun.

B: the rest was bad.

Refs punished us for getting a PP goal. It screwed up the entire flow of the game. That Baptiste penalty doesn't get called if the devils were up in penalties.

Gorges bad

Reinhart needs to start showing up. Girgs too.

I don't like Nilsson. He's out of position a lot and is always fighting the puck. I don't trust him. The defense doesn't either and they collapse because of it.

U: our overtime results. Talent wins out and it shows.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Going for some extra optimism because of some Armistice Day perspective.

G- Sabres didn't get shut out!
- Sabres got a point !
- the team defense compensated well enough for all the injuries
- Nilsson wasn't a drop-off from Lehner. Might be better at tracking the puck and controlling rebounds too.
- PK is very good
- Moulson scored on the powerplay
- Bylsma squeezing points out of the dilapidated roster he's been saddled with

B- ROR injured, Ennis out for months
- probably just me, but really don't like Kane with Okposo, they negate each other somehow
- Sabres scoring woes continued

U- nearly a 3rd (25.3m) of the projected team cap (72.2m) are unable to play. That includes McCormick, the Hodgson buyout and all the dings including ROR leaving early. Don't try to read anything into that, was just pointing it out.

I also do not like Kane with Okposo.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I cna't even be mad. Expecting the team to win with RoR, Eichel, Bogo, and Kulikov out is delusional.

Any team missing their top-2 centers and their 2nd and 3rd best defensemen will be in trouble, especially the Sabres considering their depth. I'm honestly surprised they were comptetive with the Devils.

 

[joshjull]

Once they rid themselves of girgensons ennis moulson and add eichel and another top 6 they will improve 5v5

You're clueless crusade continues.


Girgs is 4th on the team in 5v5 points per/60mins.

Girgs is tied for the 2nd most ES points with ROR, Okposo and Foligno with 4pts. (Only Larsson/Gionta's 6pts are higher).

Yet Girgs is 8th in ES ice time (12:06 night) with 5gms or more


Okposo --> 16:12 (#1 in ES ice time)
ROR ------> 16:01 (#2)
Foligno ---> 14:38 (#4)


Reinhart @ ES -> 1g 2a 3pts 13:47 EStoi
Girgs @ ES ----> 1g 3a 4pts 12:06 EStoi


Girgs isn't remotely the issue at ES. He wins possession and contributes points at ES on par with the better players getting more ice time. I'd like to see more offensive out of him but that can be said for almost all our forwards.

 

[joshjull]

The thing is... they want to play this style. Bylsma in particular... this seems to be style they want to use to eek out points in every game to keep "in it" until Eichel/Bogosian/Ennis come back because they don't believe they (and more specifically Bylsma) can win consistently playing open ice hockey with the current roster.

They are severely missing a back end QB. Can be a lefty like everyone wants (maybe that is McCabe or Guhle, but I doubt it), or a UFA (Shattenkirk???) but it is the main priority of this team. I would prefer a lefty that could slot below Risto, cut down his minutes a bit and put Bogosian on the 3rd pair and have a really nice defense that way.

This team is just trying to stay afloat right now.

I really don't think its the issue. Disco has a conservative mentality and rarely has our defense activate. Our d-corp's lack of points at ES is a systemic thing more than a talent thing. If you recall in the summer Disco said no coach has ever been fired for allowing no goals. Its just the way he thinks.

 

[Zip15]

I really don't think its the issue. Disco has a conservative mentality and rarely has our defense activate. Our d-corp's lack of points at ES is a systemic thing more than a talent thing. If you recall in the summer Disco said no coach has ever been fired for allowing no goals. Its just the way he thinks.

Bylsma was saying yesterday that the coaching staff is pushing the D to get more involved in the offense. Hamilton, I believe, was saying on WGR that it's been one of the points of emphasis. But it isn't happening as much as it should.

 

[joshjull]

Bylsma was saying yesterday that the coaching staff is pushing the D to get more involved in the offense. Hamilton, I believe, was saying on WGR that it's been one of the points of emphasis. But it isn't happening as much as it should.

I'm aware. In fact Disco's been trying to get them to activate for a week or so now. But when you set things up systemically in a conservative fashion, those habits don't go away over night. And thats how we've been playing since Disco got here.


I would also add we still drop back into the 1-1-3 quite a lot. Which has the defense in the neutral zone no where near the puck if its turned over. And the stretch pass has been creeping back into the mix again. Which could be old habits creeping in despite the coach or because the coach wanted it back. Not sure which. But either way, with the stretch pass it puts the defense about as far away from the attack as you can when your forwards get it in the neutral zone. Then they dump it in and try to cycle. with the defense scrambling to get up into the play.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Bylsma was saying yesterday that the coaching staff is pushing the D to get more involved in the offense. Hamilton, I believe, was saying on WGR that it's been one of the points of emphasis. But it isn't happening as much as it should.

The Sabres do not have defensemen known for getting involved offensively. They also don't have many healthy forwards known for offense. I don't know what fans expect.

 

[joshjull]

The Sabres do not have defensemen known for getting involved offensively. They also don't have many healthy forwards known for offense. I don't know what fans expect.

Risto, McCabe, Franson, Bogo, Nelson and to a lesser extent Kulikov are all known for getting involved in the play. Gorges is the only one that doesn't have that aspect to his game.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Risto, McCabe, Franson, Bogo, Nelson and to a lesser extent Kulikov are all known for getting involved in the play. Gorges is the only one that doesn't have that aspect to his game.

I don't agree at all. Ristolainen yes. Nelson has skills offensively, but the guys I'm thinking of carry play in the offensive zone, and I just don't see anything like that on our roster.

Bogosian can, but his hockey sense limits him. There are reasons we want to add D to the roster.

 

[Deevo]

G: McCabe is blossoming before our eyes. His play has been very promising.
B: Only one goal scored on Keith Kinkaid.
U: Cory Schneider tonight

 

[Der Jaeger]

I'm aware. In fact Disco's been trying to get them to activate for a week or so now. But when you set things up systemically in a conservative fashion, those habits don't go away over night. And thats how we've been playing since Disco got here.


I would also add we still drop back into the 1-1-3 quite a lot. Which has the defense in the neutral zone no where near the puck if its turned over. And the stretch pass has been creeping back into the mix again. Which could be old habits creeping in despite the coach or because the coach wanted it back. Not sure which. But either way, with the stretch pass it puts the defense about as far away from the attack as you can when your forwards get it in the neutral zone. Then they dump it in and try to cycle. with the defense scrambling to get up into the play.

Agree. When a whole team is struggling, there's system or motivation problems.

 

[joshjull]

I don't agree at all. Ristolainen yes. Nelson has skills offensively, but the guys I'm thinking of carry play in the offensive zone, and I just don't see anything like that on our roster.

Bogosian can, but his hockey sense limits him. There are reasons we want to add D to the roster.

I don't think you're disagreeing so much as not understanding. Activating the defense is about the dmen joining the rush, leading the rush pinching down low in the opposing zone when we have possession, generally getting involve more all over the ice etc. Its about having a 4 or 5 man attack offensively to try and create odd man advantages all over the ice. Every dman I mentioned has the ability to do those things effectively to one degree or another.


When you say "carrying play in the offensive zone" it sounds like you're talking what a PP QB does from the point. That type of play control simply does not take place at ES/5v5. There isn't nearly the time and space for it. ES/5v5 the dmen activate or get involved to create odd man advantages in various parts of the ice to further puck movement and the offense.

 

[ThunderD]

I don't think you're disagreeing so much as not understanding. Activating the defense is about the dmen joining the rush, leading the rush pinching down low in the opposing zone when we have possession, generally getting involve more all over the ice etc. Its about having a 4 or 5 man attack offensively to try and create odd man advantages all over the ice. Every dman I mentioned has the ability to do those things effectively to one degree or another.


When you say "carrying play in the offensive zone" it sounds like you're talking what a PP QB does from the point. That type of play control simply does not take place at ES/5v5. There isn't nearly the time and space for it. ES/5v5 the dmen activate or get involved to create odd man advantages in various parts of the ice to further puck movement and the offense.

I don't agree at all. Ristolainen yes. Nelson has skills offensively, but the guys I'm thinking of carry play in the offensive zone, and I just don't see anything like that on our roster.

Bogosian can, but his hockey sense limits him. There are reasons we want to add D to the roster.

Just because a defenseman doesn't carry the puck in the zone doesn't mean he is not an offensive defenseman. Josh mentioned things like pinching. One thing you will not see on this team that multple guys can do is have the coach draw up plays where a defenseman sneaks down into the slot for a pass and scoring opp.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I don't think you're disagreeing so much as not understanding. Activating the defense is about the dmen joining the rush, leading the rush pinching down low in the opposing zone when we have possession, generally getting involve more all over the ice etc. Its about having a 4 or 5 man attack offensively to try and create odd man advantages all over the ice. Every dman I mentioned has the ability to do those things effectively to one degree or another.


When you say "carrying play in the offensive zone" it sounds like you're talking what a PP QB does from the point. That type of play control simply does not take place at ES/5v5. There isn't nearly the time and space for it. ES/5v5 the dmen activate or get involved to create odd man advantages in various parts of the ice to further puck movement and the offense.

You can activate them all you want, its instinctive. We do see the Sabres D do it, its typically Risto and Bogo. I have seen Kulikov at times. Its not their strength.

 

[joshjull]

You can activate them all you want, its instinctive. We do see the Sabres D do it, its typically Risto and Bogo. I have seen Kulikov at times. Its not their strength.

This reminds me of when you thought entering the zone with possession was about individual players beating a defender 1 on 1. To you it was about an individual player making it happen. You felt we stunk at it because we didn't have enough players that could do that 1 on 1, especially with Eichel out. That was never the problem. It was about our passing scheme with the stretch pass that allowed our forwards to be easily defended in the neutral zone. We finally changed our passing scheme after Murray's now infamous meeting with the coaches. We closed our gaps and worked the puck up through the neutral zone with shorter passes and controling possession. This passing scheme allowed our forwards to enter the zone with possession unchallenged or with an advantage over the defender, like attacking with speed. It was the type of passing scheme many of us had been clamoring for. Not surprisingly we started to possession the puck more as we entered the zone. And it had nothing to do with winning 1 on 1 battles or with Eichel returning.


You're making the same mistake again by thinking its about individual defenders making plays on their own. Its not.

Take the Sens game as an example of our coach's conservative inclinations and how it impacts the use of our defense. We spent the entire 3rd period trying to hold onto a 1-1 tie. We did not try to go for the go ahead goal. How that manifested itself with the defense was any time we did gain the Sens zone, the dmen didn't pinch or jump into the cycle much. It led to the Sens overloading their d-zone coverage to the strong side on the puck. Which made it very difficult to get the puck to the net and get extra shots when we did. We spent a lot of the 3rd on the perimeter. You can beat the overload by getting the dmen more involved. The weakside dman can sneak in for a backdoor play or the strong side man joins the cycle to give us better numbers down low. But what each of those things does is potentially expose us to a counter attack. Disco's conservative nature makes him is reluctant to do it in that particular situation (tied 1-1 going in the 3rd). You would have thought attacking a team playing back to back and having traveled would have been the way top go. But we sat back for much of the 3rd period.

You don't actually think all our dmen in the 3rd period of the Sens game all kept choosing not to join the cycle or not to get involved much in the offensive zone because that was their inclination. You don't think thats tactical choice by the coaching staff? You're completely wrong about every single dman (minus Gorges). They all know and have shown their ability to become involved offensively in other places. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.


For whatever reason you think everything is about individual players making things happen on their own like a pick up hockey game. This is pro hockey. Teams create offense systemically with passing schemes, player usage, in game strategies/tactics, etc. They also use those same things to try and stop the other teams offense. Individual players can make things happen out of nothing from time to time. But its about the other things (Passing schemes, player usage, in game strategy/tactics,etc) that lead to success night in and night out. Thats what sets up your better players to succeed and to get the most out of your roster.