GDT: 12/12/23 - 10:00PM EDT - Tampa Bay @ Vancouver

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
29,113
18,209
Coop's incessant need to keep rolling Cirelli on the second like negates Paul's opportunity of climbing out of the ditch he's in by pulling third line duties. Tony needs to center the third line and BDN needs to be the second line LW. Period. That's it.

And if you get Stamkos off that Goddamn wall and play him at center (thus putting players on either his wings that are far better defensively), he'd go back to playing to his strengths.

I've seen enough of Stamkos on the wing, for like, 2 seasons now. Ace on the wing makes me comfortable. So does Paul. ABB doesn't make me comfortable anywhere but being in Syracuse but seeing how he's here to stay, 4th line RW with Glendenning and Motte works for me.

If Sheary can figure his shit out maybe he should slot in the 3rd line RW role and likely benefit having Tony as his center.

I liked what I saw from Chaffee last night. Extremely small sample size but given the garbage passing thru my eyeballs the last 2 months, I'll get geeked up seeing that kid repeatedly parking his ass right on top of the crease and looked pretty good doing it.

We used to have guys that did that. Not anymore. Likely because they're mishmashed on line combos that clearly haven't produced total on-ice results.

Time for a change

No one has a bigger hate boner on Cirelli than me but he's been pulling weight lately, in 3C or 2C - him playing in the top-6 is deserved right now, especially when he has chemistry with Hagel and they create the havoc that they do. Paul's inability to get out of his slump is on him, not because of his usage (which has been ridiculously spoon fed).

Sure Stamkos could go back to C - I've advocated for that too, not going to change the fact that he's incapable of carrying a line and needs to be spoon fed by an elite passer. If he's going back to C it's next to Kucherov not Nick -16Aul, that still doesn't change the fact together they're awful defensively, regardless of who's the center.

ABB has looked his best with either Point/Kucherov or Hagel/Cirelli, putting him with Motte and Glendenning makes no sense, if he's here you might as well use him properly.
 
Last edited:

Stammertime91

TBL: TEAM OF THE CENTURY
Dec 13, 2011
13,666
12,447
Tampa: NHL's Newest Dynasty
Does anybody here *actually* think ABB is going to be useful in the playoffs? Seriously.

He's like a little kid on the forecheck. Sure he makes a nice pass or two but off the puck, he's not the asset he *potentially* could be offensively. He's picking up points and I want to root for him, but I also see him as someone maybe another team may find value in and we send him along with somebody else for a new face. I'm just over the experiment at this point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stelio Kontos

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
29,113
18,209
Does anybody here *actually* think ABB is going to be useful in the playoffs? Seriously.

He's like a little kid on the forecheck. Sure he makes a nice pass or two but off the puck, he's not the asset he *potentially* could be offensively. He's picking up points and I want to root for him, but I also see him as someone maybe another team may find value in and we send him along with somebody else for a new face. I'm just over the experiment at this point.

Sure why not? He has a history of performing in the playoffs. Did you think JAM would ever be a Conn Smythe winner?
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,134
8,607
Tampa Bay
Vasi's numbers are horrible, blame the defense all you want but we're running 4 league minimum players on the backend while having the 2nd highest paid goalie in the league, his return was supposed to give this team a push but he's played marginally better than our league minimum backup.

88Andrei Vasilevskiy8459212.74430011780.894
31Jonas Johansson211157673.47865025460.891
I get where you are coming from, but if you throw out his first 4 games, his save percentage is .930. We also just played the highest scoring team in the league, let him shake the rust off a little bit
 
  • Like
Reactions: Renopucker

DFC

Registered User
Sep 26, 2013
47,170
23,273
NB
I get where you are coming from, but if you throw out his first 4 games, his save percentage is .930. We also just played the highest scoring team in the league, let him shake the rust off a little bit
Is anyone else concerned by Vasy looking just as shaky vs. long range shots as last year? Even the ones that miss the net, he often seems to just go down and try to be big, but a lot of the time you can tell he has no real idea where the puck is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zwui21 and Hoek

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,134
8,607
Tampa Bay
Is anyone else concerned by Vasy looking just as shaky vs. long range shots as last year? Even the ones that miss the net, he often seems to just go down and try to be big, but a lot of the time you can tell he has no real idea where the puck is.

It's always been his achilles heel, I think it was just exploited more last year. Yep, it's a concern.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
29,113
18,209
I get where you are coming from, but if you throw out his first 4 games, his save percentage is .930. We also just played the highest scoring team in the league, let him shake the rust off a little bit

We also just played the 26th highest scoring team in the league before that. I think everyone's perception of Vasi hasn't actually caught up with his actual level of play over the past 3 years yet. If we're going to cherry pick stats then outside of the 2022 run, his numbers over the last ~135 games are around 13th-15th in the league, if we're going by consistency then it's been 1.5 years since he's shown an elite level, and only in about 22 of his last ~160 games played.

If we get average level goaltending from a 9.5M goalie we're not going anywhere.
 

Antiramie

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
3,854
2,311
I'm pretty much just writing off this season and hoping we can be more competitive once Stamkos' contract (or a big chunk of it) comes off the books.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Renopucker

Stammertime91

TBL: TEAM OF THE CENTURY
Dec 13, 2011
13,666
12,447
Tampa: NHL's Newest Dynasty
Sure why not? He has a history of performing in the playoffs. Did you think JAM would ever be a Conn Smythe winner?
JAM showed much more effectiveness on the forecheck. No, I didn't think he'd be a Conn Smythe winner and I don't think anybody would've either so thats a moot point.

When the game gets even faster, I don't see ABB keeping up. I see him getting lit up tbh. Lol.
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,134
8,607
Tampa Bay
We also just played the 26th highest scoring team in the league before that. I think everyone's perception of Vasi hasn't actually caught up with his actual level of play over the past 3 years yet. If we're going to cherry pick stats then outside of the 2022 run, his numbers over the last ~135 games are around 13th-15th in the league, if we're going by consistency then it's been 1.5 years since he's shown an elite level, and only in about 22 of his last ~160 games played.

If we get average level goaltending from a 9.5M goalie we're not going anywhere.

Except I have an actual legitimate reason for wanting to exclude his first few games back. I don't expect a goalie who didn't participate in training camp and who hasn't faced NHL competition in 7 months, coming off of back surgery no less, to be inserted a quarter the way through and not miss a beat.

I don't believe he's been an elite goalie in the recent past, that's a far cry from claiming he's only played marginally better than Johansson as you claimed though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tampa22 and Hoek

T REX

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
11,369
8,644
Anyone have the ability to pull the stats on the cap hit % of goalies for stanley cup winners? I am curious what the %'s are for past winners.

Not gonna claim Vasy didn't earn that contract...he did. I am curious though what teams have won paying a goalie that much of the cap(if any).
 

DMB06

Registered User
Jun 3, 2015
1,608
1,410
Vasy has always seemed to play lights out or horribly. I think it's a mental thing with him. Whatever it is, he's paid to be a top 5 goalie and he hasn't consistently been that in quite awhile.
 

Hoek

Legendary Poster A
May 12, 2003
11,511
8,958
Tampa, FL
Anyone have the ability to pull the stats on the cap hit % of goalies for stanley cup winners? I am curious what the %'s are for past winners.

Not gonna claim Vasy didn't earn that contract...he did. I am curious though what teams have won paying a goalie that much of the cap(if any).
He was already a $9.5m cap hit when we won the 2nd cup.
 
  • Like
Reactions: T REX

OffBy1

Registered User
Aug 5, 2021
450
478
Fair or not, when your window is still now and you have no room to move or acquire meaningful personnel, it's the coach that has to go.

The chances of such a move changing this season's fortunes are getting slimmer by the moment and they were probably slim to begin with but it's time for a new face, a new voice and new approach. JBB has to at least try.
I think the window is pretty well closed.
 

OffBy1

Registered User
Aug 5, 2021
450
478
I think everyone's perception of Vasi hasn't actually caught up with his actual level of play over the past 3 years yet...

If we get average level goaltending from a 9.5M goalie we're not going anywhere.
Damn straight. If we really have been Luongo'd I'm gonna wrap myself up in some blissful ignorance just a while longer. Normally I'm always for the cold hard truth, but I'm going to give Vasy every benefit of the doubt, just because the alternative is so apocalyptic. And also because he is so proven.

Even though last year was generally perceived to be a pretty bad year for him, his save percentage finished the regular season at .915, which is basically the same as his performance three out of the previous six years. The meltdown in the playoffs wasn't representative of his play in regular season, though that was obviously more important.

Just how bad we have been in our own zone this year has to be factored in as well, and how different that is from the teams the previous 6 years. This one is definitely the worst of them. If we still had forwards and defense of that caliber and Vasy was below .900 I'd be really worried. And would you blame him if he didn't have full confidence in his back yet? I haven't had back surgery, but I've had hip surgery and it was a year before I could walk and not be thinking about my hip.
 

Bartleby

I would prefer not to.
Mar 2, 2022
711
556
Ocala, FL
I think the window is pretty well closed.
I agree but JBB's actions since the Cup runs suggest that he doesn't think so. My only point is that since he has gone as all in as he has and he really only has one more card to play then he should play it. Stranger things have happened - see STL 2019.

Hey, look what coach just became available..............
 

Stammertime91

TBL: TEAM OF THE CENTURY
Dec 13, 2011
13,666
12,447
Tampa: NHL's Newest Dynasty
John Cooper and Tampa will have a mutual parting of ways before he gets fired. Just my suspicion. And it won't be this season. If we miss this year and next year is more of the same, I could definitely see that happening in the off-season. There is not one coach in the league with as much of a leash - still -as Cooper. He's earned that. I still trust him. Every coach has his flaws and I think his tendencies have adapted to mask a lot of that. Whatever this new defensive system thing is, that's a head scratcher. That's definitely the kind of mistake that burns you, but the personnel isn't there and that's on Brisebois so that's a shared load.
 

DFC

Registered User
Sep 26, 2013
47,170
23,273
NB
I agree but JBB's actions since the Cup runs suggest that he doesn't think so. My only point is that since he has gone as all in as he has and he really only has one more card to play then he should play it. Stranger things have happened - see STL 2019.

Hey, look what coach just became available..............
I mean, in JBB's position, there's nothing you can do but try to win cups with the core you have, because there's almost no chance a rebuild will give you a better core in 5 years. And with our lack of picks, we aren't in position to rebuild anyway.

Long term, all we can do is weather these years with no picks, try to win when we can, and then once we have 1st rounders again, burn it down.

I’d like to see Cooper get mad at the players for playing bad before they can him.
Realistically we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. I dont think it's fair to judge Cooper by what we see when he knows a camera is on him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hoek

Bartleby

I would prefer not to.
Mar 2, 2022
711
556
Ocala, FL
John Cooper and Tampa will have a mutual parting of ways before he gets fired. Just my suspicion. And it won't be this season. If we miss this year and next year is more of the same, I could definitely see that happening in the off-season. There is not one coach in the league with as much of a leash - still -as Cooper. He's earned that. I still trust him. Every coach has his flaws and I think his tendencies have adapted to mask a lot of that. Whatever this new defensive system thing is, that's a head scratcher. That's definitely the kind of mistake that burns you, but the personnel isn't there and that's on Brisebois so that's a shared load.
None of what I am saying is about flaws or tendencies or anything else from a pure coaching deficiencies standpoint, it's about shaking things up when you don't have any other arrows in your quiver. After more than 10 years there is not a single thing that Coop can say or do that he hasn't said or done multiple, multiple times before - mostly successfully. But no matter how good you are or inspirational you are, at some point they are going to tune you out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stammertime91

OffBy1

Registered User
Aug 5, 2021
450
478
I mean, in JBB's position, there's nothing you can do but try to win cups with the core you have, because there's almost no chance a rebuild will give you a better core in 5 years. And with our lack of picks, we aren't in position to rebuild anyway.

It doesn't matter the current core would be better than a rebuilt core five years from now if the current core is never going to win another cup. I don't know for sure this group will never win another cup but it looks increasingly unlikely every year as we continue to lose key players and some of the most important ones we still have (Hedman, Stamkos) get closer to the downside of their careers. There's no blue chip prospects in the system and the cap situation forces JBB to make bargain basement free agent additions - right now may be as good as it'll get for what's left of the cup teams.

And with our lack of picks, we aren't in position to rebuild anyway.

This is why if the team doesn't have a dramatic turn around by the trade deadline we trade Stamkos and probably Hedman for all the first round picks and blue chip prospects we can get. I'd say Serge too, but that contract would probably limit the returns.

What would be the point of puttering around in mediocrity for several seasons with the current group if intact they have no shot? Better to trade the ones that fetch a worthwhile return while they still have value.
 

DFC

Registered User
Sep 26, 2013
47,170
23,273
NB
It doesn't matter the current core would be better than a rebuilt core five years from now if the current core is never going to win another cup. I don't know for sure this group will never win another cup but it looks increasingly unlikely every year as we continue to lose key players and some of the most important ones we still have (Hedman, Stamkos) get closer to the downside of their careers. There's no blue chip prospects in the system and the cap situation forces JBB to make bargain basement free agent additions - right now may be as good as it'll get for what's left of the cup teams.
[/QUOTE]
The core can win a cup, and it has. It's the surrounding pieces that are giving us the biggest issues, outside of possibly Vasy turning into a post-contract pumpkin. You can never know "for sure" if a team is going to win a cup, but good luck ever getting Kucherov, Point, Hedman, and (if he gets back to form) Vasy on the same squad again. If they can age like Bruins or Penguins, we have a few more kicks at the can when the cap goes up. Even if Hedman is basically an offensive weapon now, it's still a better 4 than we could possibly hope for again.

But really, without draft picks, the benefit of tanking is destroyed. This year might turn into a punt, and then see if the core can make a run next year, with possibly a better supporting cast. And I think it's still possible we might spend Stamkos's money to plug roster holes.
This is why if the team doesn't have a dramatic turn around by the trade deadline we trade Stamkos and probably Hedman for all the first round picks and blue chip prospects we can get. I'd say Serge too, but that contract would probably limit the returns.

What would be the point of puttering around in mediocrity for several seasons with the current group if intact they have no shot? Better to trade the ones that fetch a worthwhile return while they still have value.
Stamkos is not likely worth either a good first rounder or a blue chip prospect in the current market. Hedman is, but I don't see us burning it down like that until we have draft picks to take advantage of.

I think it's a stretch to say the current group has "no shot," although this year is likely to be pretty bad. Next year we should have a little bit more money to play with. And a lot of our better players are still in their primes. Kucherov is probably gonna be the 2nd best player on planet earth for another couple of years. The big question is Vasilevksiy, although it would be shocking if management lose faith in him and try to move him. I mean, if he doesn't get dramatically better, then I agree with having no shot. If he can be a top-5 goalie again, we need to rebuild the non-core portion of the roster, which is easier.

John Cooper and Tampa will have a mutual parting of ways before he gets fired. Just my suspicion. And it won't be this season. If we miss this year and next year is more of the same, I could definitely see that happening in the off-season. There is not one coach in the league with as much of a leash - still -as Cooper. He's earned that. I still trust him. Every coach has his flaws and I think his tendencies have adapted to mask a lot of that. Whatever this new defensive system thing is, that's a head scratcher. That's definitely the kind of mistake that burns you, but the personnel isn't there and that's on Brisebois so that's a shared load.
I think the moment we realize the only option is a rebuild, Cooper will step down and immediately sign with a contender. He's more/less universally regarded as the best coach in hockey at this point, and I don't see how he doesn't spend the rest of his career chasing cups.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stammertime91

Stammertime91

TBL: TEAM OF THE CENTURY
Dec 13, 2011
13,666
12,447
Tampa: NHL's Newest Dynasty
None of what I am saying is about flaws or tendencies or anything else from a pure coaching deficiencies standpoint, it's about shaking things up when you don't have any other arrows in your quiver. After more than 10 years there is not a single thing that Coop can say or do that he hasn't said or done multiple, multiple times before - mostly successfully. But no matter how good you are or inspirational you are, at some point they are going to tune you out.
True but I don't think it'll come by firing him. I think they respect him too much to do it mid season or at all. It'll be a "time to part ways" and like DFC said, he'll chase cups while we enter a rebuild or retool.
 

Bartleby

I would prefer not to.
Mar 2, 2022
711
556
Ocala, FL
True but I don't think it'll come by firing him. I think they respect him too much to do it mid season or at all. It'll be a "time to part ways" and like DFC said, he'll chase cups while we enter a rebuild or retool.
I agree that some form of what you have written is probably how it will all go down, but IMO it will have been a wasted opportunity do something bold to at least attempt to salvage the season.

In one of my favorite movies of all time, "Twelve O'Clock High" with Gregory Peck, his character, General Savage, laments the fact that the pilots are not responding to his methods to get them to work together and get with the program by uttering this quote "I'm choppin', but no chips are flyin'". I imagine that's how Coop feels about now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stammertime91

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad