11th Pick Scenario (Ristolainen vs. Zadorov vs. Pulock)

[Larry44]

Hamilton was taken after Couturier. Nobody else had taken him. After Couturier was taken, perhaps Hamilton became BPA for the Bruins.

By some accounts, the Flyers had Duncan Siemens rated higher than Hamilton anyway, and took Couturier because he slipped to 8th truly unexpectedly. Couts was rated to go top 3-4 IIRC, so his slip to 8 was a surprise.

If Barkov or Drouin slips to 11th, we'll think about it!

And if our scouts, whom I trust, think Domi or Shinkaruk is the best player at 11, above all the D prospects, they will take him...

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Except, of course, when Bob Mackenzie said he thought the Flyers were looking at Laughton.

I remember Pierre hyping up Maatta as the possible pick.

Edit: Miller, Pierre, and MacKenzie all hinted at Maatta possibly being the pick.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

Except, of course, when Bob Mackenzie said he thought the Flyers were looking at Laughton.

You mean the McKenzie that had Laughton 28th on his final rankings? That one?

Watching the video... they even talk about it being down their respective lists, but the Flyers consistently being a great drafting team.
Maatta was the highest ranked player on McKenzie's board when the Flyers selected Laughton. Not sure what we're even arguing anymore.

Yes, I over-stated the term "off the board" in the context of Laughton. He was a late first/early second prospect taken in the early 20s. The point that the Flyers moved him up and ignored the consistently higher ranked Maatta to take Laughton speaks to the fact that the Flyers take their BPA, not for strict need.... as we have been arguing for 10 pages.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

And if our scouts, whom I trust, think Domi or Shinkaruk is the best player at 11, above all the D prospects, they will take him...

So we agree lol

 

[DecadesofFutility]

Yes, I over-stated the term "off the board" in the context of Laughton. He was a late first/early second prospect taken in the early 20s. The point that the Flyers moved him up and ignored the consistently higher ranked Maatta to take Laughton speaks to the fact that the Flyers take their BPA, not for strict need.... as we have been arguing for 10 pages.

The Flyers pick BFA (Best Forward Available), ignoring their defense needs year after year at the draft.
They ignore BPA if he is a defenseman. All I am asking is some balance in drafting.
If you have two players essentially equal in value, why not pick one that fills a need?
Why stockpile more talent (Forwards) at the expense of the defense?
Is our defense so great, filled with #1 defenders that no rookies would ever be able
to crack the lineup???

 

[BillDineen]

The Flyers pick BFA (Best Forward Available), ignoring their defense needs year after year at the draft.
They ignore BPA if he is a defenseman. All I am asking is some balance in drafting.
If you have two players essentially equal in value, why not pick one that fills a need?
Why stockpile more talent (Forwards) at the expense of the defense?
Is our defense so great, filled with #1 defenders that no rookies would ever be able
to crack the lineup???

Flyers choose BPA. Be it goalie, D or F. BPA have been F more often the past decade and they have picked well. If Pitkanen turned reached his potential early and kept it up, he would still be on this team and anchoring the D and you would not be making your argument. After Boucher's rookie season, people thought he could be a long time number 1.

Looking at their D in their 20s:

Coburn age 28 - drafted 8th overall - acquired via trade
Meszaros age 27 - drafted 23rd overall - acquired via trade
L. Schenn age 23 - drafted 5th overall - acquired via trade

They have used assets effectively to acquire the above players drafted above where the Flyers could have picked. All should be peeking or close to at this point in their careers.

I do not know what the Flyers could have done better or differently in drafting in the first round. If Meszaros stayed healthier and Coburn continued to progress, there would be no complaints about this team's D. It does not matter if they were drafted or not by the team.

 

[Hockeypete49]

I wouldn't say Laughton was 'going off the board.' THN had him ranked 24th or something, IIRC, so 20 wasn't a Charaesque reach.

I agree. But if you really think a player is going to be special then you either move in the draft to select him or pull the trigger on him where you sit. I have seen Morin anywhere from 11 to 30! So who to say is right?

 

[Larry44]

You mean the McKenzie that had Laughton 28th on his final rankings? That one?

Watching the video... they even talk about it being down their respective lists, but the Flyers consistently being a great drafting team.
Maatta was the highest ranked player on McKenzie's board when the Flyers selected Laughton. Not sure what we're even arguing anymore.

Yes, I over-stated the term "off the board" in the context of Laughton. He was a late first/early second prospect taken in the early 20s. The point that the Flyers moved him up and ignored the consistently higher ranked Maatta to take Laughton speaks to the fact that the Flyers take their BPA, not for strict need.... as we have been arguing for 10 pages.

Ok, I stand corrected. I remembered Mackenzie raving about him, but it was after. When you get to be my age, you will understand!

 

[Larry44]

I agree. But if you really think a player is going to be special then you either move in the draft to select him or pull the trigger on him where you sit. I have seen Morin anywhere from 11 to 30! So who to say is right?

We will only find out at the draft. In watching that clip of the Laughton selection, Homer was clearly on the phone considering trading down, if he thought he could get Laughton a bit later.

The Flyers' scouts are excellent. If they like Morin better than others, they will pick him, or trade down if they think he will slide.

IF you really do think Morin is in the top 10 prospects, and you can get two lower first rounds for #11 to get Morin + another good player, you think long and hard about it.

Even then, you have to wait until #10 is picked, to see who slips....

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Flyers pick BFA (Best Forward Available), ignoring their defense needs year after year at the draft.
They ignore BPA if he is a defenseman. All I am asking is some balance in drafting.
If you have two players essentially equal in value, why not pick one that fills a need?
Why stockpile more talent (Forwards) at the expense of the defense?
Is our defense so great, filled with #1 defenders that no rookies would ever be able
to crack the lineup???

Statistically speaking our defense wasn't nearly as horrible as you think they were. They were just made to look worse by horrible goaltending. Many of the problems came from the forwards being clueless in their own end and a bad breakout plan that was never adjusted.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

Statistically speaking our defense wasn't nearly as horrible as you think they were. They were just made to look worse by horrible goaltending. Many of the problems came from the forwards being clueless in their own end and a bad breakout plan that was never adjusted.

I do not think the defense is good, it looks ok on paper.
The pieces do not fit together to make a good unit.

The goaltending was not good, that I will agree.
But, I feel the defense is like a unit.
Gaining confidence when they succeed and losing
confidence when they fail to stop the puck.

The goalie may play poorly, and the defense may suffer.
Then again the defense may play poorly and the goalie may
lose confidence in them as well.

I think Lavi tried to work with what he had defensively, but
without PMD its harder to move the puck to generate offense.

The other team would get the puck in and keep it in our zone,
until they scored or we took a penalty.
It was hard to watch and I had a bad feeling when the puck was in our end.

 

[Pantokrator]

I want the Flyers to trade down a few spots and take Hagg.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I want the Flyers to trade down a few spots and take Hagg.

Hagg will be taken way lower than just a "few spots". He's probabably going to be picked mid to high 20s.

 

[phlocky]

We will only find out at the draft. In watching that clip of the Laughton selection, Homer was clearly on the phone considering trading down, if he thought he could get Laughton a bit later.

The Flyers' scouts are excellent. If they like Morin better than others, they will pick him, or trade down if they think he will slide.

IF you really do think Morin is in the top 10 prospects, and you can get two lower first rounds for #11 to get Morin + another good player, you think long and hard about it.

Even then, you have to wait until #10 is picked, to see who slips....

If you truly believe that a player is a top 10 talent in the draft and he's available at 11 then you take him. You just don't risk the chance of another team being high on him too and you losing out on that guy. The ONLY way that you trade down is if at your pick (#11 for us) you have a group of players that you feel are all pretty close with no one player standing out heads and tails above the rest. THAT is when you trade down a few spots knowing you will still get one of the guys in the group you have rated all about the same and in the process picking up an extra pick in the process.

Believing that you are smarter than everyone else and can get the "steal of the draft" later by trading down more often than not backfires on you. Teams ALWAYS rate players differently than other teams and this is why we see teams going "off the board", reaching, and certain players falling in the draft. You can bet that if the public draft boards have a guy rated to go 20th but you see something in him that makes you believe he's in the top 10 of the class that at least one other team has sees him as being better than #20 too. Maybe they don't have him at 10, maybe it's 15 for them, but the chances of him being available at 20 is probably remote.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

[Larry44]
The Flyers' scouts like Morin better than others, they will pick him, or trade down if they think he will slide.

I am not in favor of Morin, would rather draft an offensive defenseman if available.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

[Larry44]
The Flyers' scouts like Morin better than others, they will pick him, or trade down if they think he will slide.

I am not in favor of Morin, would rather draft an offensive defenseman if available.

Really? I didn't know

 

[NHLAlert]

I can offer some insight on zadorov here. A friend of mine is a season ticket holder to the knights so I've seen him play live close to 15 times this season.

1. He's huge. My friend is 6'4(Zadorov is
listed at 6'5) and when standing next to Zadorov in shoes, Zadorov has him by a two or three inches. I would say he's closer to 6'7, 6'8.

2. From the beginning of the knights season, he had much more confidence with the puck on his stick, his skating got a good bit better and he really looked solid overall

3. His offensive game is underrated. This kid has skill and a big shot but needs to be more aggressive in the offensive zone. Im not a scout by any means but I do think he could develop his offensive game enough to be effective at the NHL level.

He has the skills, skating, positioning and smarts but next season will be huge for him. He really needs atleast 1-2 more years of junior to continue develop his offensive game.

Needless to say, if he's available when the flyers pick, I take him without thinking. I've not seen as much Darnell Nurse but I think he'll be gone when the flyers pick at 11.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I can offer some insight on zadorov here. A friend of mine is a season ticket holder to the knights so I've seen him play live close to 15 times this season.

1. He's huge. My friend is 6'4(Zadorov is
listed at 6'5) and when standing next to Zadorov in shoes, Zadorov has him by a two or three inches. I would say he's closer to 6'7, 6'8.

2. From the beginning of the knights season, he had much more confidence with the puck on his stick, his skating got a good bit better and he really looked solid overall

3. His offensive game is underrated. This kid has skill and a big shot but needs to be more aggressive in the offensive zone. Im not a scout by any means but I do think he could develop his offensive game enough to be effective at the NHL level.

He has the skills, skating, positioning and smarts but next season will be huge for him. He really needs atleast 1-2 more years of junior to continue develop his offensive game.

Needless to say, if he's available when the flyers pick, I take him without thinking. I've not seen as much Darnell Nurse but I think he'll be gone when the flyers pick at 11.

He was officially measured at 6'6" at the combine. He still could grow to 6'7" when all is said and done though.

 

[dats81]

I can offer some insight on zadorov here. A friend of mine is a season ticket holder to the knights so I've seen him play live close to 15 times this season.

1. He's huge. My friend is 6'4(Zadorov is
listed at 6'5) and when standing next to Zadorov in shoes, Zadorov has him by a two or three inches. I would say he's closer to 6'7, 6'8.

2. From the beginning of the knights season, he had much more confidence with the puck on his stick, his skating got a good bit better and he really looked solid overall

3. His offensive game is underrated. This kid has skill and a big shot but needs to be more aggressive in the offensive zone. Im not a scout by any means but I do think he could develop his offensive game enough to be effective at the NHL level.

He has the skills, skating, positioning and smarts but next season will be huge for him. He really needs atleast 1-2 more years of junior to continue develop his offensive game.

Needless to say, if he's available when the flyers pick, I take him without thinking. I've not seen as much Darnell Nurse but I think he'll be gone when the flyers pick at 11.

This is exactly what tempts me about this guy.
He has been primarily used in a shut-down role so far due to his size but the tools are all there and maybe it takes only one breakout season in Juniors and all of a sudden you got the next Chara.

Seth Jones is out of reach, Nurse will most likely be gone also. I guess it will be a toss up between Ristolainen and Zadorov unless the Flyers stun everybody by taking the smaller framed Pulock, which doesn't seem like a Flyers move at all.

 

[NHLAlert]

This is exactly what tempts me about this guy.
He has been primarily used in a shut-down role so far due to his size but the tools are all there and maybe it takes only one breakout season in Juniors and all of a sudden you got the next Chara.

Seth Jones is out of reach, Nurse will most likely be gone also. I guess it will be a toss up between Ristolainen and Zadorov unless the Flyers stun everybody by taking the smaller framed Pulock, which doesn't seem like a Flyers move at all.

As far as his shutdown role, I believe that a lone can get him in the NHL because like I stated, he is very skilled. They flyers have guys who can play a shutdown role and zadorov brings that element as well. But he is only 18, he's working on his offensive game and it is improving a lot. In my opinion, if his offensive game develops he will bring an element to the flyers that they haven't seen in a while. He has a great first pass, his skating shooting and positioning are all on par, it really is just his offensive game that needs to be worked on more then anything to become a #1-2 Dman in the NHL

 

[Larry44]

This is exactly what tempts me about this guy [Zadorov].
He has been primarily used in a shut-down role so far due to his size but the tools are all there and maybe it takes only one breakout season in Juniors and all of a sudden you got the next Chara.

Seth Jones is out of reach, Nurse will most likely be gone also. I guess it will be a toss up between Ristolainen and Zadorov unless the Flyers stun everybody by taking the smaller framed Pulock, which doesn't seem like a Flyers move at all.

I have to take issue again. When was Zadorov pegged as a shut down guy?

Not by his coaches. I saw half a dozen London playoff/MemCup games and he played on the 2nd PP unit in each one. He scored some big goals, sliding in back door or just plain crashing then net. He takes the puck behind his net and skates it to the other blue line using his speed and huge stride. He makes great stretch and outlet passes. He's also good on D. Great stick + huge reach. Hits hard in open ice - crushes guys on the wall and is almost impossible to hit (like Chara).

As a Mark Howe fan, I appreciate the abilities of smaller D, like Morrissey, to control the play, but the more I think about it, we would be lucky to get this guy.

He's like Vlad Malakhov but with Pronger's temperment.... Huge, fast, mobile, skilled, mean. I haven't seen the others (except Pulock) because I haven't had a chance to watch the Prospects game. Soon, I hope, just have to dig out the tape.