Post-Game Talk (GBU): #05 The Good, the Bad, and the Officiating - Samson Arriving, Gate 1

[joshjull]

How Franson gets more ice time then Pysyk is beyond me. I'm just gonna say it Pysyk is straight up better than Franson is. Why is he even on the penalty kill?

The thing is most fans want to see them split up. Bylsma is an NHL head coach and he knows more than any of us do, so he obviously sees something by keeping those 2 together. I just want to know what he sees because I don't see it.

I couldn't resist.


As for what Byslma sees in Kane/Eichel.........................

http://www.hngn.com/articles/97398/...kane-eichel-can-create-explosive-top-line.htm

Kane, who Bylsma sat down with for three hours after taking the Sabres job, per Friedman, likes to carry the puck, a duty usually reserved for the center, potentially creating a sticky situation if Eichel feels more comfortable controlling the pace of attack.


While Bylsma conceded that it could be an issue, he seemed mostly excited at the proposition of finding a way to perfectly pair the bruising Kane and the uber-talented Eichel.


"If that can work, imagine it coming at you."

That's the most annoying thing about this. He knows it might not work and that one of the two needs to change how they play for it to work. We know Kane Kane isn't going to change. I don't know about anyone else but I have zero interest in Eichel changing his game to fit with Kane as the driving force of their line.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

You're reaching to try and put this on Eichel.

If Kane has the puck along the wall in our end looking to break out. Eichel and the supporting defensemen are usually in the right spot to support the breakout. Kane just doesn't like to pass once he has the puck. If he thinks he can chip it past the dman then go after the puck he will. Or try to skate by them. Its just how he's wired. To Kane's credit he has an amazingly high success rate of getting it out that way. Not the easiest thing to do.

I've been pleasantly surprised with how good Eichel's defensive zone positioning is. In the defensive zone I've rarely seen him up high. He's usually down low where he is supposed to be helping the defense. When he is up higher its in support of the breakout. The problem with Kane is he looks to make a play on his own first. If he is completely boxed in, then he will look to pass. On a break out its generally too late at that point. So our weakside winger and center are farther ahead of the play.



Its should be noted that the overwhelming majority of the issues fans have with Kane not passing to Eichel is on the rush or in the offensive zone. MANY times Eichel gets into a prime shooting spot only to watch Kane either bull his way to the net or shoot from where he is instead of making a pass. Eichel would have been in the more advantageous scoring position. Add to that several times on the rush when two, sometimes three, defenders converge or shift over to Kane as he's rushing through the neutral zone. He tries to skate through them and doesn't pass. Again to Kane's credit he is able to keep the puck moving towards the opposing net due to his speed and strength. But its not the smartest or best way to play those situations.


The simple fact is Eichel will touch the puck less playing on a line with Kane than he will on a line without him. He's also started to become a one man show at times himself. Not habit I want to see him develop.


EDIT: I'm not implying Eichel doesn't have the usual positional brainfarts that a kid his age will have. But as others have mentioned, Kane never looking to pass is the primary problem

I agree with everything you said here, but the bold portion is gospel truth and my only beef is that Kane and Eichel should be separated for exactly this reason.

 

[kirby11]

I agree with everything you said here, but the bold portion is gospel truth and my only beef is that Kane and Eichel should be separated for exactly this reason.

Agreed. Eichel being the driving force on his line is a better thing to have than Kane being a driving force because Eichel can make his teammates better and dish the puck when the situation calls for it. But if his options are give it to Kane (who often occupies the same areas of ice that Jack wants to go to, which makes passing useless) or Gionta, I can understand why he's going hero mode sometimes.

Kane really needs his own line with other players who can scrap for pucks, cycle, and score dirty goals but don't need the puck on their stick to be gamebreakers.

 

[dire wolf]

Agreed. Put Kane with Larsson and Foligno. Or maybe Gionta

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Agreed. Put Kane with Larsson and Foligno. Or maybe Gionta

That basically what Winnipeg did and what I think we should do too. The only problem is that you're giving less minutes to that line than the top two, especially when we're behind in a game, and that means less ice time for Kane. You'd like to be able to keep Kane on the ice as much as possible when you're down.

 

[Moskau]

That basically what Winnipeg did and what I think we should do too. The only problem is that you're giving less minutes to that line than the top two, especially when we're behind in a game, and that means less ice time for Kane. You'd like to be able to keep Kane on the ice as much as possible when you're down.

At some point Kane is going to have to earn his ice time through production and not just because of talent and puck possession. He's not good on the PP and he's not a playmaker. He is a very good possession player who excels at getting the puck into the opposition end of the rink and keeping it there. So is Johan Larsson and he's already been sat once this year for lack of production. If putting Kane in a position to use his attributes for the best of the team only allows him play 11 minutes a night then so be it.

 

[OkimLom]

You're reaching to try and put this on Eichel.

If Kane has the puck along the wall in our end looking to break out. Eichel and the supporting defensemen are usually in the right spot to support the breakout. Kane just doesn't like to pass once he has the puck. If he thinks he can chip it past the dman then go after the puck he will. Or try to skate by them. Its just how he's wired. To Kane's credit he has an amazingly high success rate of getting it out that way. Not the easiest thing to do.

I've been pleasantly surprised with how good Eichel's defensive zone positioning is. In the defensive zone I've rarely seen him up high. He's usually down low where he is supposed to be helping the defense. When he is up higher its in support of the breakout. The problem with Kane is he looks to make a play on his own first. If he is completely boxed in, then he will look to pass. On a break out its generally too late at that point. So our weakside winger and center are farther ahead of the play.



Its should be noted that the overwhelming majority of the issues fans have with Kane not passing to Eichel is on the rush or in the offensive zone. MANY times Eichel gets into a prime shooting spot only to watch Kane either bull his way to the net or shoot from where he is instead of making a pass. Eichel would have been in the more advantageous scoring position. Add to that several times on the rush when two, sometimes three, defenders converge or shift over to Kane as he's rushing through the neutral zone. He tries to skate through them and doesn't pass. Again to Kane's credit he is able to keep the puck moving towards the opposing net due to his speed and strength. But its not the smartest or best way to play those situations.


The simple fact is Eichel will touch the puck less playing on a line with Kane than he will on a line without him. He's also started to become a one man show at times himself. Not habit I want to see him develop.


EDIT: I'm not implying Eichel doesn't have the usual positional brainfarts that a kid his age will have. But as others have mentioned, Kane never looking to pass is the primary problem

I have no problem with what you're saying here. But to say I'm trying to put this blame on Eichel is funny to me, because all I see are people blaming Kane solely for the issues for the duo. I'm not saying Kane is free from blame, because there are times when he should be looking for the pass and he doesn't. I'm not saying Kane is always right and Eichel is in the wrong. It's a little of both. There are times where Eichel ISN'T in a good passing lane and it doesn't provide Kane a good passing opportunity and that's because of where Eichel is on the ice.

It's not as if Kane has never passed the puck before. It's just a matter of them getting used to each other. A little criticism of "The Golden Boy" is okay, it really is. They will get used to each other, and once they get comfortable with each other, it will be fine. Sometimes you don't have immediate chemistry with someone, you need to work at it.

 

[joshjull]

I have no problem with what you're saying here. But to say I'm trying to put this blame on Eichel is funny to me, because all I see are people blaming Kane solely for the issues for the duo. I'm not saying Kane is free from blame, because there are times when he should be looking for the pass and he doesn't. I'm not saying Kane is always right and Eichel is in the wrong. It's a little of both. There are times where Eichel ISN'T in a good passing lane and it doesn't provide Kane a good passing opportunity and that's because of where Eichel is on the ice.

It's not as if Kane has never passed the puck before. It's just a matter of them getting used to each other. A little criticism of "The Golden Boy" is okay, it really is. They will get used to each other, and once they get comfortable with each other, it will be fine. Sometimes you don't have immediate chemistry with someone, you need to work at it.

You're missing the point entirely. If you want to assign blame for that pair not clicking. It belongs squarely on Bylsma. A coach who knows they're not likely to mesh well and has said so in a few off season interviews.

http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2015/...-city-while-bylsma-ponders-line-combinations/

“Evander Kane skates at an elite level, and you think about putting speed together,” Bylsma said. “I also think Evander wants to have the puck and Jack wants to have the puck. There’s only one puck on the ice. The speed aspect might work, but both wanting the puck and having the puck on their stick wouldn’t work.”

The issue is their strengths as players do not compliment each other. For them to gel, one of the two needs to go away from their strengths as a player. To me, thats not something I want to see from either of them. Nor does it make much sense. Then when you factor in Kane isn't going to change. He has been the player we see since he entered the league. Then it falls on our 18 year old franchise center to be to go away from his strengths as a player. To change his game to accommodate Kane. I don't think anyone wants to see that.

 

[Zip15]

Why are people trying to indict Bylsma with a statement he made before he had ever viewed Eichel and Kane on the same line? He believed there was the possibility that they may not click back in June--so what? He clearly sees something there now, even if fans disagree.

 

[joshjull]

Why are people trying to indict Bylsma with a statement he made before he had ever viewed Eichel and Kane on the same line? He believed there was the possibility that they may not click back in June--so what? He clearly sees something there now, even if fans disagree.

He has said the same thing in various forms since then. He knows their styles may not mesh since they both need the puck on their stick to be at their best. But because they are big powerful skaters with incredible speed, he's hoping that maybe they find a way to make it work. And if he's been watching the games I fail to see how they would do anything but reinforce the disjointed nature of the pair.

At the end of the day its not the end of the world that he is trying this experiment. But in light of the short leash many other pairs and line combos have had. It can get frustrating for fans to see him stick with it with those two when others get moved all over.

 

[sabrebuild]

People will not like this, but I would view this Kane/Eichel pair as indicative of Bylsma's lacking ability in reading and reacting to events that don't fit into his initial plan.

He is a good motivator and will have a good initial plan, but when things don't work he has an extremely difficult time in adjusting accordingly.

I'm sure others will disagree or say sample size. However, I would note that I lived in Pens country, either pittsburgh or near by gor his entire stint. It is a similar pattern.

 

[Aapo]

Bylsma is aware of the problem, at least in theory. That's enough for me at the moment.

 

[Jame]

People will not like this, but I would view this Kane/Eichel pair as indicative of Bylsma's lacking ability in reading and reacting to events that don't fit into his initial plan.

He is a good motivator and will have a good initial plan, but when things don't work he has an extremely difficult time in adjusting accordingly.

I'm sure others will disagree or say sample size. However, I would note that I lived in Pens country, either pittsburgh or near by gor his entire stint. It is a similar pattern.

Some of us warned...

I'm content letting Bylsma do his thing while our elite talent develops. If he remains the stubborn schmuck he's always been... we'll deal with it in a year or two.. i hope. My bigger concern/fear... is that our talent development takes a huge jump, and masks his deficiencies, only to have them exposed in the post season on a yearly basis (Lindy Ruff 2.0)

 

[hizzoner]

I will probably carp and whine about any lack of teamwork on the ice but I will intellectually grant that it takes time for players to find what works best for them. That said I liked the world junior line of Reinhart, Domi and Duclair. Reinhart did the thinking and was third man back to help out. He looked for the breakouts to Domi or Duclair and he set them up. They were far and away better skaters but the threesome worked. Domi was not a big passer but Reinhart was in position if Domi was stuck or to get a rebound. Not to say that will work here but Kane on the left and the appropriate right winger is what I wanted to see tried for a few games.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

People will not like this, but I would view this Kane/Eichel pair as indicative of Bylsma's lacking ability in reading and reacting to events that don't fit into his initial plan.

He is a good motivator and will have a good initial plan, but when things don't work he has an extremely difficult time in adjusting accordingly.

I'm sure others will disagree or say sample size. However, I would note that I lived in Pens country, either pittsburgh or near by gor his entire stint. It is a similar pattern.

I had a thought during camp, when it became evident that multiple line combos would be tried out, that Bylsma might use a slightly underhanded (but much used) tactic that applies in many professions. When a supervisor/coach has many options but one in particular that (even if popular) he doesn't like, he can choose that option first and simply discard it when it fails. Once it fails, he'll never go back to it again and will always have his "proof" and logic to defend his decision. Complaints then fall on deaf ears.

If Bylsma didn't like Kane-Eichel in theory, but other combos failed (which wouldn't be unexpected for the first 10-30 games or so) then he might be pressured into choosing Kane-Eichel as a solution. Any success at that point might force his hand to keep them paired. OTOH, if he allows Kane-Eichel to fail first, say after the first 10 games, then he never has to deal with it again, and can always justify never putting them back together.

Just a thought, since I've had the displeasure of witnessing too many nefarious supervisory tactics in my time. I almost hope that's the case though, as opposed to Bylsma simply being obtuse.

 

[sabrebuild]

Some of us warned...

I'm content letting Bylsma do his thing while our elite talent develops. If he remains the stubborn schmuck he's always been... we'll deal with it in a year or two.. i hope. My bigger concern/fear... is that our talent development takes a huge jump, and masks his deficiencies, only to have them exposed in the post season on a yearly basis (Lindy Ruff 2.0)

The only thing that comforts me is that I think Murray is icy enough to dump him even if the team improves in the standings.

 

[joshjull]

I had a thought during camp, when it became evident that multiple line combos would be tried out, that Bylsma might use a slightly underhanded (but much used) tactic that applies in many professions. When a supervisor/coach has many options but one in particular that (even if popular) he doesn't like, he can choose that option first and simply discard it when it fails. Once it fails, he'll never go back to it again and will always have his "proof" and logic to defend his decision. Complaints then fall on deaf ears.

If Bylsma didn't like Kane-Eichel in theory, but other combos failed (which wouldn't be unexpected for the first 10-30 games or so) then he might be pressured into choosing Kane-Eichel as a solution. Any success at that point might force his hand to keep them paired. OTOH, if he allows Kane-Eichel to fail first, say after the first 10 games, then he never has to deal with it again, and can always justify never putting them back together.

Just a thought, since I've had the displeasure of witnessing too many nefarious supervisory tactics in my time. I almost hope that's the case though, as opposed to Bylsma simply being obtuse.

I see stubbornness not Machiavellian scheming from Byslma.

http://sabres.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=784002&cmpid=sm-tw-news

As for the Eichel and Kane line, it may only be a matter of time before they start showing up on the score sheet more often. Kane has not yet scored a goal in the regular season, but Bylsma pointed to three specific instances where matters of circumstance prevented him from hitting an open net.

Kane also had a game-tying goal overturned by a coach’s challenge in the team’s home opener on Oct. 8 and Eichel was stoned on a scoring chance in front of the net on Saturday in Tampa Bay.

“We’ve thought about breaking it up, but when you look at some of the opportunities they have had to score … you go back to Florida and Jack gave Evander an empty cage and, you know, by chance, luck, circumstance, it hits the defenseman’s stick. That’s the only thing that would prevent it from going in,” Bylsma said, recounting one of Kane’s missed opportunities.

“If you look at three goals in those games you’d be feeling a lot different about them as a pair. I think the opportunities have been there.”

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I see stubbornness not Machiavellian scheming from Byslma.

http://sabres.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=784002&cmpid=sm-tw-news

Yeah that's just stubbornness, rose colored glasses, etc.

Many combos around the league generate scoring chances...doesn't mean they're actually being successful, or being used to their strengths. This issue needs a poll for a contest - which game of the season will Bylsma split them up? Hope it doesn't start with a 2.

 

[sabrebuild]

I had a thought during camp, when it became evident that multiple line combos would be tried out, that Bylsma might use a slightly underhanded (but much used) tactic that applies in many professions. When a supervisor/coach has many options but one in particular that (even if popular) he doesn't like, he can choose that option first and simply discard it when it fails. Once it fails, he'll never go back to it again and will always have his "proof" and logic to defend his decision. Complaints then fall on deaf ears.

If Bylsma didn't like Kane-Eichel in theory, but other combos failed (which wouldn't be unexpected for the first 10-30 games or so) then he might be pressured into choosing Kane-Eichel as a solution. Any success at that point might force his hand to keep them paired. OTOH, if he allows Kane-Eichel to fail first, say after the first 10 games, then he never has to deal with it again, and can always justify never putting them back together.

Just a thought, since I've had the displeasure of witnessing too many nefarious supervisory tactics in my time. I almost hope that's the case though, as opposed to Bylsma simply being obtuse.

Ya i would love it if he was that subtle and crafty. In the 5+ years I watched him coach as a neutral observer, I don't think he intentionally plays those types of games.

 

[brian_griffin]

I see stubbornness not Machiavellian scheming from Byslma.

http://sabres.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=784002&cmpid=sm-tw-news

Thanks for the post joshjull, the quote adds meaningful context.

While Bylsma's sentiment may be valid, it ignores the possibility of the converse being true. Namely if they were split up, more combined total scoring chances would result.

Reinhart - OReilly - Ennis
Moulson - Eichel - Girgensons
Kane - Larsson - McGinn / Gionta
Des - Legwand - Foligno / Gionta

 

[OkimLom]

You're missing the point entirely. If you want to assign blame for that pair not clicking. It belongs squarely on Bylsma. A coach who knows they're not likely to mesh well and has said so in a few off season interviews.

http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2015/...-city-while-bylsma-ponders-line-combinations/




The issue is their strengths as players do not compliment each other. For them to gel, one of the two needs to go away from their strengths as a player. To me, thats not something I want to see from either of them. Nor does it make much sense. Then when you factor in Kane isn't going to change. He has been the player we see since he entered the league. Then it falls on our 18 year old franchise center to be to go away from his strengths as a player. To change his game to accommodate Kane. I don't think anyone wants to see that.

I'm not trying to put blame on anybody. I was just saying the putting the blame squarely on Kane, which many people on the boards have seem to have done, is ridiculous. Sure the results aren't showing, but I feel they are playing well and have shown signs of dangerous play. They just need to get comfortable with each other. I'm not one to be impatient with the whole process. Sometimes chemistry doesn't click right away. Sometimes it does. At this early stage of the season I'm not committed to say something will not work, just yet. There's no point in putting the blame on anybody and that includes the coach as well. Kane and Eichel could be playing better themselves as well as with each other, Bylsma should be more patient with the 3rd winger as well. The WHOLE line needs to click just not two guys. If you're going to start pointing fingers, each of them (Kane, Eichel, Bylsma) deserve it, not just Kane.

 

[joshjull]

I'm not trying to put blame on anybody. I was just saying the putting the blame squarely on Kane, which many people on the boards have seem to have done, is ridiculous. Sure the results aren't showing, but I feel they are playing well and have shown signs of dangerous play. They just need to get comfortable with each other. I'm not one to be impatient with the whole process. Sometimes chemistry doesn't click right away. Sometimes it does. At this early stage of the season I'm not committed to say something will not work, just yet. There's no point in putting the blame on anybody and that includes the coach as well. Kane and Eichel could be playing better themselves as well as with each other, Bylsma should be more patient with the 3rd winger as well. The WHOLE line needs to click just not two guys. If you're going to start pointing fingers, each of them (Kane, Eichel, Bylsma) deserve it, not just Kane.

Fair enough. But Bylsma still deserves some blame IMO for that pair not clicking. He had a winger that clicked instantly with them (Girgs). He was instrumental in Kane scoring his disallowed goal. But because Bylsma is so married to his "pairs" approach, he didn't keep them together. He's tried several wingers with that pair since. None have had the same type of success as Girgs did with them.

From my pov. If you want to keep those two together and help them have success. Then why not keep the RW that had success with them on their line. Why would you break them up? Its confusing to say the least.

To put it another way. I agree it can take time to find combos that work. Bylsma had a line that was working and for whatever reason broke them up. Sometimes the best way to get a pair of forwards going is to give them a line mate that fits well and helps them. Hopefully McGinn can provide what Girgs did on that line.

 

[OkimLom]

Fair enough. But Bylsma still deserves some blame IMO for that pair not clicking. He had a winger that clicked instantly with them (Girgs). He was instrumental in Kane scoring his disallowed goal. But because Bylsma is so married to his "pairs" approach, he didn't keep them together. He's tried several wingers with that pair since. None have had the same type of success as Girgs did with them.

From my pov. If you want to keep those two together and help them have success. Then why not keep the RW that had success with them on their line. Why would you break them up? Its confusing to say the least.

To put it another way. I agree it can take time to find combos that work. Bylsma had a line that was working and for whatever reason broke them up. Sometimes the best way to get a pair of forwards going is to give them a line mate that fits well and helps them. Hopefully McGinn can provide what Girgs did on that line.

I agree.

Personally, since we saw some good things, I would love to see:

Reinhart-ROR-Ennis
Kane-Eichel-Girgensons

as our top 6.