03-04 Leafs vs. 13-14 Leafs

[Primary Assist]

So it's been 10 years since the Leafs iced what we can all agree on was their last great roster, a team poised to go deep into the playoffs with veteran leadership, coaching, goaltending and versatility. I want to know what all of us brilliant minds in the Leafs aisle of Hockey's Future think about a theoretical matchup between the Leafs of last decade and our current team. For a reminder the lineup would look pretty similar to this:

Roberts - Sundin - Mogilny
Tucker - Nieuwendyk - Nolan
Renberg - Reichel - Antropov
Ponikarovsky - Fitzgerald - Domi
Stajan

Kaberle - McCabe
Berg - Klee
Marchment - Pilar
Colaicavo

Belfour
Kidd

VS.

Van Riemsdyk - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - Clarkson
Raymond - Bolland - Kulemin
McLaren - McClement - Orr
Colborne

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Ranger - Gardiner
Liles - Fraser
Holzer

Reimer
Bernier

So what do you guys think? The vets of days past or the young guns of the modern era?

(If I messed up the rosters please let me know so I can fix them. Then feel free to chirp me like your first name's Nazem.)

Click to read more...

 

[BertCorbeau]

Under the current rules of the game? Young guns because the increased speed since rules from the 04-05 lockout came into effect has changed the game .. Plus our current group is more physical

 

[Warden of the North]

Old team. They were a lock playoff team full of All Stars

 

[cujoflutie]

Fairly close but I'd go with the 2004 team. Some feel this club could struggle to make the playoffs, nobody was saying that back in 2003. If you add on Leetch and Francis (mid season acquisitions) it's not even close. Though I'm hoping Nonis doesnt move a 1st round pick like JFJ did that year as that club was a veteran club nearing the end of it's era, this team is at the beginning.

 

[showtime8]

Its shocking to see how different the league was in terms of not having a salary cap and how teams treated prospect development.

Think about this trade at the deadline:

To San Jose:
F Alyn McCauley (25 years old)
F Brad Boyes (21 years old)
1st round pick (16th overall)

To Toronto:
F Owen Nolan (31 years old)

At the time, McCauley was one of those tweener guys that hadn't shown his full potential yet and Brad Boyes a 1st round pick who at the time was highly thought of. And the Leafs get 31 year old Owen Nolan who was often injured and showed nothing in Toronto.

I know that the Leafs thought that they were closer to winning than not, but how much scrutiny would Nonis get if he traded Biggs, Gauthier & a 1st rounder for someone at the deadline. (just an example)

 

[Warden of the North]

Its shocking to see how different the league was in terms of not having a salary cap and how teams treated prospect development.

Think about this trade at the deadline:

To San Jose:
F Alyn McCauley (25 years old)
F Brad Boyes (21 years old)
1st round pick (16th overall)

To Toronto:
F Owen Nolan (31 years old)

At the time, McCauley was one of those tweener guys that hadn't shown his full potential yet and Brad Boyes a 1st round pick who at the time was highly thought of. And the Leafs get 31 year old Owen Nolan who was often injured and showed nothing in Toronto.

I know that the Leafs thought that they were closer to winning than not, but how much scrutiny would Nonis get if he traded Biggs, Gauthier & a 1st rounder for someone at the deadline. (just an example)

That attitude (and it wasnt the wrong one at the time) is the reason we started behind the 8 ball after the previous lockout. It took a LLOOOOOONNNGGG time to recover from that.

 

[Primary Assist]

Its shocking to see how different the league was in terms of not having a salary cap and how teams treated prospect development.

Think about this trade at the deadline:

To San Jose:
F Alyn McCauley (25 years old)
F Brad Boyes (21 years old)
1st round pick (16th overall)

To Toronto:
F Owen Nolan (31 years old)

At the time, McCauley was one of those tweener guys that hadn't shown his full potential yet and Brad Boyes a 1st round pick who at the time was highly thought of. And the Leafs get 31 year old Owen Nolan who was often injured and showed nothing in Toronto.

I know that the Leafs thought that they were closer to winning than not, but how much scrutiny would Nonis get if he traded Biggs, Gauthier & a 1st rounder for someone at the deadline. (just an example)

It is pretty crazy when you look at it. What also is pretty crazy is that this current Leafs roster costs less than $1 million more than the 03-04, pre-salary cap roster. Obviously they can't be fully compared since median player salaries/salaries in general have changed so much in the past decade but it's still interesting.

 

[zeke]

Its shocking to see how different the league was in terms of not having a salary cap and how teams treated prospect development.

Think about this trade at the deadline:

To San Jose:
F Alyn McCauley (25 years old)
F Brad Boyes (21 years old)
1st round pick (16th overall)

To Toronto:
F Owen Nolan (31 years old)

At the time, McCauley was one of those tweener guys that hadn't shown his full potential yet and Brad Boyes a 1st round pick who at the time was highly thought of. And the Leafs get 31 year old Owen Nolan who was often injured and showed nothing in Toronto.

I know that the Leafs thought that they were closer to winning than not, but how much scrutiny would Nonis get if he traded Biggs, Gauthier & a 1st rounder for someone at the deadline. (just an example)

more important, probably, is the fact that McCauley, Boyes, and that pick amounted to a hill of crap in the end.

 

[cujoflutie]

Bold denotes player was active in 1993
Italics denotes player is still active in 2013



Roberts - Sundin - Mogilny
Tucker - Nieuwendyk - Nolan
Renberg - Reichel - Antropov
Ponikarovsky - Fitzgerald - Domi
Stajan

Kaberle - McCabe
Berg - Klee
Marchment - Pilar
Colaicavo

Belfour
Kidd

Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Stajan, and Coliacovo were the only 4 players in the first half of their careers at that point with Pilar kind of being a wildcard. The rest were all on the back 9 of their careers. That was a very veteran club. The big difference was that the inevitable result of a second round loss was deemed a failure by that club whereas that would likely be a success this year.

 

[The CyNick]

Its shocking to see how different the league was in terms of not having a salary cap and how teams treated prospect development.

Think about this trade at the deadline:

To San Jose:
F Alyn McCauley (25 years old)
F Brad Boyes (21 years old)
1st round pick (16th overall)

To Toronto:
F Owen Nolan (31 years old)

At the time, McCauley was one of those tweener guys that hadn't shown his full potential yet and Brad Boyes a 1st round pick who at the time was highly thought of. And the Leafs get 31 year old Owen Nolan who was often injured and showed nothing in Toronto.

I know that the Leafs thought that they were closer to winning than not, but how much scrutiny would Nonis get if he traded Biggs, Gauthier & a 1st rounder for someone at the deadline. (just an example)

it depends. if we could get a 31yr old that would ensure we have a deep run, and potentially get a cup, its worth it to sacrifice some young pieces. I don't think its a lock Gauthier or Biggs are anything more than marginal players. if we add a piece and finish in top third of the league or higher, the pick won't be that huge to lose.

the difference now is you should probably only do it for younger players (ie the Kessel trade), and you cant do it every year.

 

[cujoflutie]

Its shocking to see how different the league was in terms of not having a salary cap and how teams treated prospect development.

Think about this trade at the deadline:

To San Jose:
F Alyn McCauley (25 years old)
F Brad Boyes (21 years old)
1st round pick (16th overall)

To Toronto:
F Owen Nolan (31 years old)

At the time, McCauley was one of those tweener guys that hadn't shown his full potential yet and Brad Boyes a 1st round pick who at the time was highly thought of. And the Leafs get 31 year old Owen Nolan who was often injured and showed nothing in Toronto.

I know that the Leafs thought that they were closer to winning than not, but how much scrutiny would Nonis get if he traded Biggs, Gauthier & a 1st rounder for someone at the deadline. (just an example)

Both teams were at different stages; the 2003 team was nearing the end of their peak. While I disagreed with that deal from day one, it was understandable that they wanted to get a cup run in while they were that close. This years club is still climbing uphill. Also we're still likely more than one player away from contending so even if we were able to trade that for Gaborik, Thornton or Hossa, we still might not win the cup.

 

[Canada4Gold]

this years team. Mainly because our window is just about opening, theirs was just closing

 

[Joey Hoser]

That attitude (and it wasnt the wrong one at the time) is the reason we started behind the 8 ball after the previous lockout. It took a LLOOOOOONNNGGG time to recover from that.

I still don't really think that was a terrible trade. At the time, the Leafs were an old, but good team and it wasn't any kind of a stretch to say they could take a run at it, and Nolan was exactly the kind of guy that could make an impact in the playoffs.

The thought of making a trade like that right now makes me want to cower in a corner and cry, but that type of trade has it's place.

 

[7even]

03/04 by a gulf.

 

[zeke]

Previous 2yrs Stats *unfortunately no RTSS stats back then)


C N.Kadri (23): 69gms, 23gls, 51pts, 15:29 (82gms, 27gls, 61pts)
C M.Sundin (32): 157gms, 78gls, 152pts, 19:46 (82gms, 41gls, 79pts)

W P.Kessel (26): 130gms, 57gls, 134pts, 19:57 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts)
W A.Mogilny (34): 139gms, 57gls, 136pts, 18:54 (82gms, 34gls, 80pts)

W J.Lupul (30): 82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 18:07 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts)
W O.Nolan (31): 150gms, 52gls, 120pts, 18:40 (82gms, 28gls, 66pts)


C T.Bozak (27): 119gms, 30gls, 75pts, 19:41 (82gms, 21gls, 52pts)
C J.Nieuwendyk (37): 161gms, 42gls, 103pts, 16:49 (82gms, 21gls, 53pts)

W J.VanRiemsdyk (24): 91gms, 29gls, 56pts, 17:15 (82gms, 26gls, 51pts)
W G.Roberts (37): 83gms, 26gls, 56pts, 17:05 (82gms, 26gls, 55pts)

W D.Clarkson (29): 128gms, 45gls, 70pts, 16:50 (82gms, 29gls, 45pts)
W D.Tucker (28): 154gms, 34gls, 95pts, 16:10 (82gms, 18gls, 51pts)


C D.Bolland (27): 111gms, 26gls, 51pts, 16:27 (82gms, 19gls, 38pts)
C R.Reichel (32): 159gms, 32gls, 93pts, 14:52 (82gms, 17gls, 48pts)

W N.Kulemin (27): 118gms, 14gls, 51pts, 15:50 (82gms, 10gls, 35pts)
W N.Antropov (23): 83gms, 17gls, 47pts, 14:12 (82gms, 17gls, 46pts)

W M.Raymond (28): 101gms, 20gls, 42pts, 15:41 (82gms, 16gls, 34pts)
W M.Renberg (31): 138gms, 28gls, 87pts, 14:04 (82gms, 17gls, 52pts)


C J.McClement (30): 128gms, 18gls, 34pts, 14:19 (82gms, 12gls, 22pts)
C T.Fitzgerald (35): 144gms, 12gls, 37pts, 13:29 (82gms, 7gls, 21pts)

W C.Orr (31): 49gms, 2gls, 5pts, 6:15 (82gms, 4gls, 8pts)
W T.Domi (34): 153gms, 24gls, 48pts, 10:39 (82gms, 13gls, 26pts)

W F.McLaren (26): 43gms, 3gls, 5pts, 5:09 (82gms, 6gls, 10pts)
W N.Perrott (27): 23gms, 1gls, 3pts, 4:50 (82gms, 4gls, 11pts)


C J.Colborne (23): 15gms, 1gls, 5pts, 12:10 (82gms, 6gls, 27pts)
C M.Stajan (20): 1gms, 1gls, 1pts, 11:00 (82gms, 82gls, 82pts)

W C.Ashton (22): 15gms, 0gls, 0pts, 10:25 (82gms, 0gls, 0pts)
W A.Ponikarovsky (23): 21gms, 2gls, 5pts, 9:42 (82gms, 8gls, 20pts)




D D.Phaneuf (28): 130gms, 21gls, 72pts, 25:15 (82gms, 13gls, 45pts)
D B.McCabe (28): 157gms, 23gls, 67pts, 24:08 (82gms, 12gls, 35pts)

D J.Gardiner (23): 87gms, 7gls, 34pts, 21:26 (82gms, 7gls, 32pts)
D T.Kaberle (25): 151gms, 21gls, 86pts, 24:55 (82gms, 11gls, 47pts)


D C.Gunnarsson (27): 113gms, 5gls, 34pts, 21:34 (82gms, 4gls, 25pts)
D K.Klee (32): 138gms, 9gls, 33pts, 20:37 (82gms, 5gls, 20pts)

D C.Franson (26): 102gms, 9gls, 50pts, 17:20 (82gms, 7gls, 40pts)
D K.Pilar (26): 40gms, 4gls, 11pts, 17:05 (82gms, 8gls, 23pts)


D J.M.Liles (33): 98gms, 9gls, 38pts, 20:30 (82gms, 8gls, 32pts)
D B.Marchment (34): 153gms, 4gls, 36pts, 18:50 (82gms, 2gls, 19pts)

D M.Fraser (27): 49gms, 0gls, 8pts, 16:44 (82gms, 0gls, 13pts)
D A.Berg (26): 159gms, 5gls, 22pts, 16:55 (82gms, 3gls, 11pts)


D P.Ranger (29): ------
D R.Jackman (25): 44gms, 0gls, 2pts, 13:55 (82gms, 0gls, 4pts)

D M.Rielly (19): ------
D C.Colaiacovo (21): 2gms, 0gls, 1pts, 13:43 (82gms, 0gls, 41pts)




G J.Reimer (25): 67gms, 33-22-9, 2.78gaa, 7so, .912sv%
G E.Belfour (38): 122gms, 58-47-16, 2.45gaa, 8so, .910sv%

G J.Bernier (25): 30gms, 14-9-3, 2.14gaa, 2so, .914sv%
G T.Kidd (31): 52gms, 10-26-7, 3.16gaa, 1so, .895sv%





I'd take this year's defense over that year's defense corps by a comfortable margin. Pretty much from top to bottom. The only matchup I take from that year's defense is the Kaberle-Gardiner matchup, though I think Gardiner is very capable of pulling a Kaberle this year.

I'd even take this year's goaltending over that year's goaltending. Belfour was awesome, but he was very old and had a bad back. Reimer's actually matched Belfour's performance for the most part, and is just a baby. And any difference in the starters is made up by the massive difference in backups - Kidd was a pathetic excuse for a goalie, while Bernier is quite good.

The forwards I'd still give to the 03-04 squad, though. The top-6s were close in terms of skill and production, but the 03-04 top-6 had much more toughness and grit to go along with it. And then, in the bottom-6 the 03-04 team still had plenty of size and grit, but had a good amount more skill and production than our current bottom-6 does.

Overall, pretty close.


But, given that we all knew that that year was pretty much the end of an era, and that team wasn't lasting much longer....this year's team is still at the start of an era, and should be improving together for a long time to come.

 

[The Beyonder]

I like the leadership group in the 03-04 team. I feel like if they had a better defensive core and system, they might have gone deeper. I think this group is still raw and still needs to prove themselves.

 

[Hero]

Old team with out a question.

If we had a elite level #2D and a #1C then we can talk comparing them.

 

[Duffman955]

Old team. They were a lock playoff team full of All Stars

This Sundin+Moginlny are better than any of our forwards currently.

 

[zeke]

Mogilny never finished as high as Kessel has in the scoring race the past two years, even in his prime.

 

[Primary Assist]

Mogilny never finished as high as Kessel has in the scoring race the past two years, even in his prime.

What about when he tied with Selanne for the league lead in goals? Or do you mean just based on his time as a Leaf?

Also, I seriously can't take my eyes off April in your avatar. I hope we keep James so we can see more video of her in the stands.

 

[AINEC*]

C M.Stajan (20): 1gms, 1gls, 1pts, 11:00 (82gms, 82gls, 82pts)

This made me chuckle.

On topic, the 03-04 was definitely the better team, though it was on a downswing with many of their players aging. This years team is much younger and on the upswing, but if we're strictly talking roster vs. roster for their respective seasons I'd take the 03-04 team.

 

[R McD]

The Mogilny-Sundin match up never materialized too much outside of the 02-03 season due to Moginly's injury prone status. In fact I do recall some reserved optimism regarding the guy when we signed him for that very reason. He was already a band-aid player. Same goes for that trade for Nolan. I can understand the mentality of trading for veterans due to the obvious win-now mode they were win, which was correct. But Nolan, who much like Clark, had his whole body give up on him by 28/29, was a risk, so getting him @ 31 was very questionable at the time. With no cap and all their financial resources I was always pissed that the leafs never did something like offer sheet Joe Sakic or sign Bret Hull. They always seemed to spend some money on the wrong guys instead of spending big $ on healthy veterans who could contribute

 

[zeke]

What about when he tied with Selanne for the league lead in goals? Or do you mean just based on his time as a Leaf?

yeah he did tie for the league lead in goals that year, but all of their top-10 finishes in the scoring (and ppg) race:

Mogilny:

92-93 (23): 127pts - 7th (1.65ppg - 4th)
95-96 (26): 107pts - 9th (1.35ppg - 9th)

Kessel:

11-12 (24): 82pts - 6th (1.00ppg - 8th)
12-13 (25): 52pts - 7th (1.08ppg - 10th)

Sundin

01-02 (30): 80pts - 4th (0.98ppg - N/A)
96-97 (25): 94pts - 7th (1.15ppg - 10th)

 

[613Leafer]

That attitude (and it wasnt the wrong one at the time) is the reason we started behind the 8 ball after the previous lockout. It took a LLOOOOOONNNGGG time to recover from that.

Since the lockout, we've also traded away our 2005, 2007, 2010, and 2011 1st round picks or prospects before they had even set foot on NHL ice (or even been drafted in the picks case).

This team has only really tried to build the way most teams do in the salary cap era over the past two years or so, and even then they've still traded away picks for older secondary/tertiary veterans (Liles, Bolland, Steckel, O'Byrne, etc) while the team hasn't even been a contender.

Taking away from the prospect pool / picks that could add to the prospect pool, while adding older expensive secondary/tertiary guys that we generally haven't kept for more than a year or two, while them being here doesn't give us a chance to win anything at all, is simply bad asset/cap management. Those calibre of players are available during every single free agency, no reason to waste picks on em.

 

[rojac]

Trading top prospects or first round picks is only remembered and moaned about if the team doesn't win. If the Leafs had won the Cup in 2003-04, nobody would be complaining at all about acquiring Owen Nolan.

Look at the Bruins. They traded away a 1st and Joe Colbourne (and a 2nd because they made it to finals) to rent Tomas Kaberle who didn't contribute much at all. But because the Bruins won the Cup that year, I have never heard a Bruins fan complain about it. I suspect if they hadn't won, there would be a very vocal faction of the Bruins fanbase complaining about the deal.

Similarly, the 1992 Toronto Blue Jays traded away future NL MVP Jeff Kent and another player to rent David Cone. Again, I've never heard a complaint from a Jays fan about the deal because the won the World Series that year.