Zdeno Chara vs Brian Leetch

[GIN ANTONIC]

Overall value over the entirety of their careers, Chara wins out due to longevity and consistency. If you’re talking about who was a better defenseman over peak or prime it’s Leetch. I’m going with Leetch here. I don’t think the Norris comparisons are fair seeing as Chara played the bulk of his career against lower caliber defensemen.

 

[SensFan4lyfe]

This depends on what my team needs

If I need a puck moving dman who can create offense I take Leetch

If I need a stay at home dman with some offense I take chara

Actually to be honest I'd take chara

Hes the better option to build your dcore around

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Chara could well have had a Norris twice if not for the farewell Lidstrom Norris.

Leetch a fantastic talent but Chara brought a consistent, unique and dominant style unlikely to be repeated.

 

[Nocashstyle]

you sure??

Norris:

ZC: 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,5
vs
BL: 1,1,3,4,5,5,8

I think it’s definitely close, but going with Leetch.

Not all Norris finishes are created equal. Yeah there’s some overlap, but Leetch’s peers for a majority of his prime were guys like Bourque, Stevens, Macinnis, Chelios, Coffey, and an early Lidstrom.

Big Z was had Lidstrom, Weber, Suter, Keith…

Yeah, probably hall of famers all around there. But the depth of Leetch’s era clearly trumps Chara’s.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Leetch was tremendously talented, and not just extremely tall. He was also not supremely unlikeable as a player and person. Which is another advantage for Leetch. Who...despite the fact i should hate him as Canucks fan...i just can't. Chara on the other hand, can go kick rocks.

This is the only bad take in this thread.

Chara is very well known as extremely likeable among players, one of the hardest working players around the league, one of the most charitable, smartest and respected players.

And you’re right, he had very little talent, it was just being tall that made him elite.

Just like:
John Scott
Vladimir Mihalek
Andrej Suster
Hall Gill
Logan Stanley
Boris Valabik

All absolute all stars due to size.

I know you’re upset Chara and the Bruins man handled the Canucks, but don’t ruin a good thread spewing nonsense

 

[Machinehead]

Leetch was just better at controlling the game, a much better transition player and his difference on offense was greater than the one on defense imo. Chara had incredible longevity, but he also became a top defenceman later, and he wasn’t really a major difference maker for a lot of his final seasons. I don’t think there’s a large difference in the length of their primes, and I don’t put a ton of stock in accumulating useful seasons that are much lower than their primes for this level of player

I also think Leetch was probably underrated in his 30s due to playing huge minutes on poor Ranger teams. I know Machinehead did a deeper dive into his ‘01 season where he had 79 to lead all defensemen in scoring (significantly so over anyone other than Lidstrom), but he only finished 5th in Norris voting because his -18 made him look poor defensively, when Machinehead showed a lot of that was actually things like empty netters and short handed goals and Leetch was a huge positive impact on the team at ES. Chara always got the benefit of the doubt defensively when it came to Norris voting, which explains some of the difference.

I'm very sad that this experiment was lost to the server migration. Probably Leetch's best season considering he was playing for the circus in the middle of the DPE, and was 32.

The other overlooked think about Leetch is his low-key (maybe?) best Conn Smythe run in the history of the Conn Smythe. It has to be up there. 34 points in 23 games with a separated shoulder. I don't think people realize how much the Rangers downgraded at the '94 deadline (long story) and how much Leetch then had to drag that team kicking and screaming through the Spring.

People will bring up Norris finishes but Leetch had like eight seasons where he wasn't getting much consideration because the Rangers were a sweat stain on the underpants of existence.

I tend to believe this isn't close at all, and people will take that as a sensational swipe at Chara. It's not. Zdeno Chara is a Hall of Famer. That being said, Leetch had 100 points twice, had 79 in the DPE, and had a 121-point-pace Conn Smythe. And, as I've talked about, his defensive impacts were very good!

He's not the shutdown animal that Chara was, but I'm sorry, Chara (career high 52 points) is not fifty points better than Leetch defensively.

 

[Cup or Bust]

They a fairly different d-men but in this case I would have to go with Leetch. He was a truly elite talent d-man.

 

[Regal]

Chara was a legit Norris contender for 10 years and a legit top pair defenseman for 20. Leetch was a legit top pair defenseman for 15 years, but his run as a true Norris contender was really only 6 years, albeit a better 6 years than any 6 years Chara can make a case for.

I get the excuses that Leetch was on a lot of bad teams, but he was a 50 point player that played a lot of minutes to bump up those stats from 29 year old and on. Pointing to his one outlier season in his 30s as a norm seems a little dicey. Leetch at 29 and on was good (well, until he got to Boston), but was not the Makar/prime Karlsson like force he was in his mid 20s.

And I think you are vastly overestimating the number of "useful tack on seasons" for Chara. He was still a legit top pair defenseman at 41 years old. His last season in Boston he was very much being carried by McAvoy, and the two seasons in Washington and NY were just there to get him past Chelios for games played. But, he was the Bruins #1D for most of his 41 year old season, before McAvoy clearly took the torch. That team made it to the Cup.

You can also make an argument that Chara was extremely underrated in his 20s because of everyones fixation with the ridiculously overrated Redden.

I think its totally within reason to conclude that Leetch's better peak puts him ahead, but I think you are needlessly overstepping in your arguments.



I think you know that what made Chara great wasn't that he was tall... there are a lot of 6'7" and 6'8
d-prospects that don't do shit... it was because of his awesome hockey IQ AND the big reach.

Maybe, but then you’re going the other way and exaggerating the differences. How was Chara a top pair defenseman for 20 years? His first season that can be argued as a top pairing guy was his first in Ottawa at 24. You say his age 41 season in Boston he was still top pair. That would be 17 seasons considering the lockout. So 2 more than Leetch.

And Leech was top 5 in Norris voting 7 times, yet you’re giving him credit for only 6 years as a Norris contender. I get you’re trying to put together a consistent prime, and one of those years was a few years off, but then even those 6 surround a season he missed games but was still a Norris level player. And if you want to dismiss that year or the top 5 Norris, then Chara also wasn’t as good in his first year with the Bruins either. At best you can argue he was at that level for 3 more years.

I also think Leetch was also closer to a Norris level player in his top pairing years outside of those Norris voting years, which is born out in Norris voting.

All told, if Chara was a Norris level player for a couple more years, then they were top pairing players outside of those seasons for roughly the same amount of time, and if Leetch was better in both of those instances, I consider him the better player. My post suggested that their time periods as top pairing guys was similar (ie within a couple of seasons), which it clearly was.

 

[wetcoast]

Leetch was tremendously talented, and not just extremely tall. He was also not supremely unlikeable as a player and person. Which is another advantage for Leetch. Who...despite the fact i should hate him as Canucks fan...i just can't. Chara on the other hand, can go kick rocks.

I like this post.

 

[wetcoast]

Maybe, but then you’re going the other way and exaggerating the differences. How was Chara a top pair defenseman for 20 years? His first season that can be argued as a top pairing guy was his first in Ottawa at 24. You say his age 41 season in Boston he was still top pair. That would be 17 seasons considering the lockout. So 2 more than Leetch.

And Leech was top 5 in Norris voting 7 times, yet you’re giving him credit for only 6 years as a Norris contender. I get you’re trying to put together a consistent prime, and one of those years was a few years off, but then even those 6 surround a season he missed games but was still a Norris level player. And if you want to dismiss that year or the top 5 Norris, then Chara also wasn’t as good in his first year with the Bruins either. At best you can argue he was at that level for 3 more years.

I also think Leetch was also closer to a Norris level player in his top pairing years outside of those Norris voting years, which is born out in Norris voting.

All told, if Chara was a Norris level player for a couple more years, then they were top pairing players outside of those seasons for roughly the same amount of time, and if Leetch was better in both of those instances, I consider him the better player. My post suggested that their time periods as top pairing guys was similar (ie within a couple of seasons), which it clearly was.

I agree 100% here.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Voted Chara but I have a bias against Leetch for no good reason tbh.

 

[tabness]

It’s funny how perceptions ebb and flow. Leetch seems to be getting the benefit of folks remembering his prime and folks seem to be remembering the last few years of Chara. It’s a good poll. Two guys in the same tier. But I think folks are forgetting how long it took Leetch to find his stride defensively and how young he flamed out for an elite defenseman. I also think that Chara was super underrated in his Ottawa days as many thought Redden had equal claim to being the star d-man. All that being said. I have no idea who to vote for. Leetch’s peak was sooooo good.

I find the comment that it took Leetch long "to find his stride defensively" strange especially given the comparison is with Chara, who literally started his career as a bit of a sideshow later than Leetch and took longer to establish himself (and yes huge credit to Chara to work on so many aspects to not only make it in the NHL, but make it in a league that literally stopped putting a premium on the size and strength that got him his shot in the first place, and not just make it but excel in it).

Leetch had ups and downs and consistency issues in his what, first threeish years when he was 21 and younger? Usually the worst play was reflected when the team was in turmoil anyway, which is a given since defense is more team dependent than forward.

Unlike his early career which I agree had some issues (but which elite finesse defenseman at that age doesn't have those issues, look at early Coffey/Bourque/whoever), I find the critique of late career Leetch too be super overblown and honestly a bit baseless on just things like Norris voting and plus/minus, and it looks like others have went into more detail here.

I'll just end with this anecdote, I recently watched the Probert/Domi round 2 game. The Rangers dressed 13 forwards and only five defensemen lol (this is freaking 1992-1993!). The amount Leetch was asked to do was insane, he did almost everything well too.

 

[Pierre Larouche]

Voted Chara but I have a bias against Leetch for no good reason tbh.

Leetch w/out question. Chara began as a project, a giant who over time hopefully could develop into something. Leetch was amazing from the get go. At one point Messier called him the best player in the NHL. Chara worked tirelessly at his game. He was a great leader by example.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Leetch was tremendously talented, and not just extremely tall. He was also not supremely unlikeable as a player and person. Which is another advantage for Leetch. Who...despite the fact i should hate him as Canucks fan...i just can't. Chara on the other hand, can go kick rocks.

Is your sole reason for hating Chara 2011?

Considering you cite Leetch as a player and person... are you implying Chara is not a premium player and person?