Yzerman vs. Beliveau

[Plural]

Raw totals obviously say so. But there are seasons by Orr, Esposito, Howe, and Jagr that are worth mentioning. I'm probably missing some too.

The Hockey Compendium has it as the 38th most statistically dominant season ever, and the 21st-best not posted by Gretzky or Lemieux:

Espo 71
Weiland 30
Espo 74
Orr 71
Morenz 28
Espo 69
Jagr 99
Conacher 34
Morenz 31
Espo 72
Howe 53
Keats 22
Jagr 96
Boucher 30
Jagr 00
Ratelle 72
Orr 70
Primeau 32
Lafleur 77
Cowley 41
Yzerman 89

eva will like these numbers, because, like him, they credit for games missed.

You can disagree with some of them for various reasons, but it does show that there are plenty of contenders for the best non-Gretzky/Lemieux offensive season ever.

What is the difference with this list and that one hockey-reference made using adjusted stats?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_season.html

Are they done by using the same method?

Pretty weird that Yzerman is that far. Tied with Sakic.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The Tied Rule

What is the difference with this list and that one hockey-reference made using adjusted stats?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_season.html

Are they done by using the same method?

Pretty weird that Yzerman is that far. Tied with Sakic.

Also tied with Joe Primeau, three way tie.

This invokes the obscure Yzerman Tied Rule which accrues the points of all tied players to one, so Steve Yzerman may be viewed as having 384 points (3 x 128) and a first place rank.

 

[pdd]

For those who are unfamiliar with the kind of offensive power Yzerman played with:

Player|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Beliveau|53-54|0.63|0.65|Geoffrion, Olmstead
Beliveau|54-55|0.97|1.26|Geoffrion, Olmstead
Beliveau|55-56|1.26|1.42|Olmstead, Geoffrion
Beliveau|56-57|1.75|2.10|Olmstead, Geoffrion
Beliveau|57-58|1.18|1.59|Geoffrion, Olmstead
Beliveau|58-59|0.95|1.38|Moore, Geoffrion
Beliveau|59-60|1.04|1.45|Geoffrion, Bonin
Beliveau|60-61|0.95|1.76|Geoffrion, Bonin
Beliveau|61-62|0.69|1.95|Geoffrion, Bonin
Beliveau|62-63|1.36|1.63|Tremblay, Geoffrion
Beliveau|63-64|1.73|2.00|Ferguson, Geoffrion
Beliveau|64-65|0.91|0.98|Rousseau, Ferguson
Beliveau|65-66|0.99|1.60|Rousseau, Tremblay
Beliveau|66-67|0.60|0.90|Rousseau, Ferguson
Beliveau|67-68|1.13|1.33|Cournoyer, Tremblay
Beliveau|68-69|0.94|1.58|Cournoyer, Ferguson
Beliveau|69-70|0.78|1.53|Cournoyer, Ferguson
Beliveau|70-71|1.04|2.53|Cournoyer, Ferguson
Yzerman|83-84|1.09|1.12|Duguay, Ogrodnick
Yzerman|84-85|0.85|1.00|Ogrodnick, Duguay
Yzerman|85-86|0.60|0.88|Ogrodnick, Duguay
Yzerman|86-87|1.25|1.70|Gallant, Klima
Yzerman|87-88|1.40|1.65|Gallant, Probert
Yzerman|88-89|1.67|2.18|Gallant, MacLean
Yzerman|89-90|1.59|3.63|Gallant, Barr
Yzerman|90-91|2.70|4.15|Barr, Gallant
Yzerman|91-92|2.24|2.86|Miller, Gallant
Yzerman|92-93|1.41|4.57|Ciccarelli, Gallant
Yzerman|93-94|0.88|1.12|Sheppard, Primeau
Yzerman|94-95|2.24|2.92|Errey, McCarty
Yzerman|95-96|2.97|3.28|Errey, McCarty
Yzerman|96-97|1.73|4.72|McCarty, Sandstrom
Yzerman|97-98|1.86|3.14|McCarty, Holmstrom
Yzerman|98-99|1.85|2.18|McCarty, Holmstrom
Yzerman|99-00|1.01|1.65|Shanahan, Verbeek
Yzerman|00-01|0.68|1.73|Shanahan, Verbeek
Yzerman|01-02|0.64|0.71|Shanahan, Fedorov
Yzerman|02-03|0.26|0.67|Robitaille, Devereaux
Yzerman|03-04|1.28|1.55|Draper, Maltby
Yzerman|05-06|1.06|3.09|Draper, Maltby

I feel that TANGIBLY showing Yzerman's significant diadvantage in this area - such as the fact that Yzerman's first season where he played with two first-liners was 2001-02 (Shanahan and Fedorov, and even then that was only part of the year and he still managed almost 1 PPG and had the best PPG on the line) might set some people straight on Yzerman. If you pull out 99/66, he completely dominated the scoring field in his prime, even if he only does only win one Art Ross. The fact that he did it with guys like Gallant, Probert, Barr, and Miller as his REGULAR linemates just furthers the point.

Notable in the table above? Yzerman is outscored by one of his regular linemates in exactly six seasons. In only one of them, 1984-85, was he healthy. In only three seasons was he outscored by both linemates. His maximum games played in one of those seasons was 52, and his total games in all of them was 119.

Some people say Tavares is better than Crosby, and Tavares a) has never been a PPG player, and b) barely outscored Matt Moulson this season. Using the metrics I have in this thread (%1/%2 for league and line) to compare him to Yzerman, he would not come anywhere NEAR Yzerman.

Looking at seasons like Yzerman's 95-96 season where he still managed 95 points shows the kind of ridiculous lack of credit given to Yzerman. He put up 34 more than his regular linemates, and was nominated for the Selke, yet received zero votes for center for the postseason AS. The same for the next season; he wasn't nominated but he still had an excellent season both ways with poor linemates and received zero votes at center. Most baffling were the votes for Mike Modano; Yzerman outscored him, had a better PPG, was better defensively, better on faceoffs, a better leader, and was the more physical player. Yet Modano finished fourth with (1-11-16); yes, someone gave 83-point Mike Modano a first-place vote over 122-point Mario Lemieux.

Stuff like THAT is part of why people consider Yzerman underrated. Because other guys had a good season and suddenly received significant notice as elite players. Yzerman had a series of elite seasons and it took a decade of winning and three Cups before he even started to get credit from most people for what he did.

One particularly interesting mathematical quirk is how Yzerman's 87-88 season lines up with Beliveau's 55-56 season. Yzerman's linemates (Gerard Gallant and Bob Probert) scored 73pts in 73GP and 62pts in 74GP, respectively. Beliveau's linemates (Bert Olmstead and Bernie Geoffrion) scored 70 in 70 and and 62 in 59. But disregarding GP, the points are almost identical and even on the same wings. Furthering that, Montreal's highest-scoring defenseman was Doug Harvey (44) compared to Darren Veitch (40) for Detroit. The numbers all seem to match. Except Yzerman had 102 points to Beliveau's 88. That doesn't match nearly as well.

I recognize the concept that Beliveau was a more complete player. But in that particular season, Yzerman's ES scoring rate was only a hundredth of a point less than a prime Mario Lemieux's. The next year, he won the Pearson, scored one fewer than prime Lemieux at ES, and outscored prime Gretzky at ES.

Linemates. After Bert Olmstead left with Geoffrion ES, the regular LW on Beliveau's line was an NHL fringer Marcel Bonin or Jean Guy Gendron, a solid versatile player Don Marshall or a rookie Gilles Tremblay. With Gendron and Tremblay he helped Geoffrion to a fifty goal season. Post Geoffrion, Beliveau at ES, introduced rookies to the NHL - Bobby Rousseau, Yvan Cournoyer Phil Roberto accompanied with a solid LW - Gilles Tremblay, Dick Duff, a bit of John Ferguson, Frank Mahovlich. Tend to wash with Yzerman's linemates,if you weigh all three elements of play - offence, defence, completeness.

Teammates. Function of expectations and responsibilities. Until Bowman came along Yzerman had minimal defensive responsibilities that required a complete game.

Yes, like being the primary penalty killer on the team, or also being used to shut down elite forwards (until Fedorov came along).

So teammates have to be weighed in this context. Beliveau had more complete teammates while Yzerman had the choice of offensive teammates that enhanced his offensive stats.

Like who exactly? Dave Barr? Shawn Burr? Gerard Gallant? Petr Klima? BOB PROBERT? Hell, Kevin Miller (as well as Kip) is used by Jagr supporters to illustrate the poor quality of linemates Jagr had, despite the fact that Kevin only played 13 games as a Penguin and scored ELEVEN points in that time, in what was already on-pace to be a career-best season for him before he was traded to the Pens. He scored 53 points in 91 games with the Wings. Which teammates did Yzerman play with during his prime that enhanced his offensive stats?

Beliveau played with Harvey and two defensive HHOF defensemen, Yzerman - Lidstrom, Murphy, Chelios, Howe, Coffey that contributed to his offensive numbers

Beliveau played with Harvey, Johnson, Tremblay, etc. in their primes while he himself was in his prime. That's a BIG help; sort of like the fact that Gretzky/Kurri/Coffey had concurrent primes was the driving force of the Oilers. If Kurri and Coffey were late bloomers and hit their primes around 1985 or 1986, the Oilers are not a dynasty. Yzerman had Lidstrom's first three seasons in his prime, and just over a season of a post-prime Coffey. Mark Howe played 104 games and scored 58 points during Yzerman's prime; he was generally playing on the second or third pair and the second PP. You're doing exactly what I brought up earlier; talking about Yzerman having played on great teams with great players and using it against his great prime, as if it all happened at the same time. Of the defensemen you mentioned, Lidstrom was the FIRST one to join the team. In 1988-89, the Wings' highest-scoring D was Steve Chiasson with 47 points (30% of Yzerman, 50% of Gallant, 66% of MacLean). In 1955-56, Montreal's highest scoring D was Doug Harvey with 44 points (50% of Beliveau, 63% of Olmstead, 71% of Geoffrion). The effective change to make Harvey's percentages comparable to Chiasson's? Add 85 points to Geoffrion and 5 points to Olmstead, with no change in Beliveau's or Harvey's stats. See how ridiculous that is?

As for Murphy, he was run out of Toronto for poor performance and fit in well with the playing style of the Wings, but was at the end of his career and not nearly the Norris-challenging, HHOF-level player he once was. Chelios joined the Wings in 1999 at the traded deadline; Yzerman played two full seasons and two half-seasons with him on the roster. If this is how much you have to try to twist your argument against my points...

Opposition: This issues should stop with the goalies but will look at the skaters as well. O6 era Jean Beliveau played against HHOF quality goalies at least 75% of the time.Yzerman played against HHOF quality goalies a distinct minority of the time. Maybe 25% of the time. Defensemen. O6 era saw each team with 1 - 3 HHOF quality defensemen. Vast majority of the NHL teams during Yzerman's era did not have one HHOF defenseman.

This is a significantly subjective matter, though. How much has player quality increased over time? Some think that it has increased a great deal and that most first-liners nowadays would be stars in the O6. There are solid arguments both ways. But one thing we can definitely say is that goaltender quality has improved a great deal, as have coaching systems - particularly defensively.

However, it is also true that the O6 teams were particularly lopsided; during Beliveau's career the majority of the talent was concentrated in Montreal and Detroit, later shifting to Montreal/Toronto/Chicago and then Montreal/Boston.

Players who would have been stars on other teams were on the second or sometimes even third lines on those teams.

The glimmer of hope that Yzerman seems to have is offensive based. For two thirds of his career Yzerman was a defensive liability.

This is a complete falsehood perpetrated by ignorance. Because players like Sakic, Modano, and even Lemieux entered the league as offense-only guys and were able to add a solid defensive element to their games later in their career does not mean that every player who improves their defensive game was a liability to begin with. Scott Stevens doesn't get the same "liability turned defensive star" treatment Yzerman does, yet he did the exact same thing at the exact same time; changed his game from being primarily offensive to being primarily defensive.

 

[seventieslord]

obviously an O6 player had better linemates than a modern player. the league was smaller and the star players were more concentrated. The question is really whether Beliveau or Yzerman had better linemates on a relative basis. Beliveau's linemates over the years don't look incredibly better than the linemates of other top players he was competing for scoring titles with. Nor do Yzerman's. A much deeper analysis is needed - much more than name dropping cherrypicked names.

Regardless, it's obvious to all who have entered this thread that Beliveau is the superior player, so I don't know what the point of such an analysis would be.

 

[Hardyvan123]

obviously an O6 player had better linemates than a modern player. the league was smaller and the star players were more concentrated. The question is really whether Beliveau or Yzerman had better linemates on a relative basis. Beliveau's linemates over the years don't look incredibly better than the linemates of other top players he was competing for scoring titles with. Nor do Yzerman's. A much deeper analysis is needed - much more than name dropping cherrypicked names.

Regardless, it's obvious to all who have entered this thread that Beliveau is the superior player, so I don't know what the point of such an analysis would be.[/B

On the contrary, it's these obvious examples that need to be tested the most so that we really know that their obviousness stands up to scrutiny. After all most of us here never the hockey world with pre existing hero's and stars from the past that we are always told how great they were without ever having seen them play.

Even with the lack of complete and exactly comparable statistics we need to test our assumptions as much as possible if we want to have a truly complete picture of any comparison of two or more players from different time periods.

Even your first point about the concentration of players in a 6 team league rather than a larger one needs to be examined. Sure that's true in the original expansion, but is it as true as all post expansion times periods? the different numbers of teams over time and the rate of expansion, slow or fast, along with new talents streams all need to be considered.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Like I said once before in pointing out your bias; those must have been the three most important points of all time.

It's also a matter of how many points they had. Messier scored 75% of Yzerman's number; Yzerman scored 84% of Gretzky's.

No, it doesn't matter it all. The actual numbers haven't changed, you've just switched it to percentages because you think it somehow makes your point more relevant. The numbers are the numbers are the numbers.

Three points.

No, that's not bias. That's called speaking/writing English.

No, actually, it is bias, and its plain to see.

Key word; Yzerman's IMAGE was rehabilitated. He was already playing well defensively. It wasn't until he changed from being a defensively skilled scoring center to an offensively skilled shutdown center that people *noticed* he could play defense.

So wait. . . the third-best center of all-time and no one except you noticed how good he was, huh?

As for center depth... what exactly is your point? Yzerman had no help on his team; the opposing team could (and did) stack their defensive players and made their game plan around stopping Yzerman.

And Yzerman got copious amounts of ice-time, played in every advantageous situation, and played every second of every power-play.

You know, the thing that you constantly bash Messier for in 1990?

When you talk about the 50s Habs, what happens if you focus all of your defensive efforts to contain Beliveau? Moore, or Richard, or Olmstead, or Geoffrion will score. Yzerman had none of them. Part of the reason the 96-97 Wings stomped to the Cup is that they had three first lines; the Yzerman line, the Fedorov line, and the Shanahan/Larionov line.

Ah, yes. The mysterious, 'Detroit triangle' effect. . . where the Red Wings are stacked with OMG THE GR3ATEST PLAYERS EVER!!! but, somehow, they never played together or benefited from each other's presence. Oh, except to rob each other of ice-time and power-play duty, of course.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Ah, yes. The mysterious, 'Detroit triangle' effect. . . where the Red Wings are stacked with OMG THE GR3ATEST PLAYERS EVER!!! but, somehow, they never played together or benefited from each other's presence. Oh, except to rob each other of ice-time and power-play duty, of course.

Ok...this post made me laugh out loud

So true.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1961-62 Season Data

For those who are unfamiliar with the kind of offensive power Yzerman played with:

Player|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Beliveau|53-54|0.63|0.65|Geoffrion, Olmstead
Beliveau|54-55|0.97|1.26|Geoffrion, Olmstead
Beliveau|55-56|1.26|1.42|Olmstead, Geoffrion
Beliveau|56-57|1.75|2.10|Olmstead, Geoffrion
Beliveau|57-58|1.18|1.59|Geoffrion, Olmstead
Beliveau|58-59|0.95|1.38|Moore, Geoffrion
Beliveau|59-60|1.04|1.45|Geoffrion, Bonin
Beliveau|60-61|0.95|1.76|Geoffrion, Bonin
Beliveau|61-62|0.69|1.95|Geoffrion, Bonin
Beliveau|62-63|1.36|1.63|Tremblay, Geoffrion
Beliveau|63-64|1.73|2.00|Ferguson, Geoffrion
Beliveau|64-65|0.91|0.98|Rousseau, Ferguson
Beliveau|65-66|0.99|1.60|Rousseau, Tremblay
Beliveau|66-67|0.60|0.90|Rousseau, Ferguson
Beliveau|67-68|1.13|1.33|Cournoyer, Tremblay
Beliveau|68-69|0.94|1.58|Cournoyer, Ferguson
Beliveau|69-70|0.78|1.53|Cournoyer, Ferguson
Beliveau|70-71|1.04|2.53|Cournoyer, Ferguson
Yzerman|83-84|1.09|1.12|Duguay, Ogrodnick
Yzerman|84-85|0.85|1.00|Ogrodnick, Duguay
Yzerman|85-86|0.60|0.88|Ogrodnick, Duguay
Yzerman|86-87|1.25|1.70|Gallant, Klima
Yzerman|87-88|1.40|1.65|Gallant, Probert
Yzerman|88-89|1.67|2.18|Gallant, MacLean
Yzerman|89-90|1.59|3.63|Gallant, Barr
Yzerman|90-91|2.70|4.15|Barr, Gallant
Yzerman|91-92|2.24|2.86|Miller, Gallant
Yzerman|92-93|1.41|4.57|Ciccarelli, Gallant
Yzerman|93-94|0.88|1.12|Sheppard, Primeau
Yzerman|94-95|2.24|2.92|Errey, McCarty
Yzerman|95-96|2.97|3.28|Errey, McCarty
Yzerman|96-97|1.73|4.72|McCarty, Sandstrom
Yzerman|97-98|1.86|3.14|McCarty, Holmstrom
Yzerman|98-99|1.85|2.18|McCarty, Holmstrom
Yzerman|99-00|1.01|1.65|Shanahan, Verbeek
Yzerman|00-01|0.68|1.73|Shanahan, Verbeek
Yzerman|01-02|0.64|0.71|Shanahan, Fedorov
Yzerman|02-03|0.26|0.67|Robitaille, Devereaux
Yzerman|03-04|1.28|1.55|Draper, Maltby
Yzerman|05-06|1.06|3.09|Draper, Maltby

I feel that TANGIBLY showing Yzerman's significant diadvantage in this area - such as the fact that Yzerman's first season where he played with two first-liners was 2001-02 (Shanahan and Fedorov, and even then that was only part of the year and he still managed almost 1 PPG and had the best PPG on the line) might set some people straight on Yzerman. If you pull out 99/66, he completely dominated the scoring field in his prime, even if he only does only win one Art Ross. The fact that he did it with guys like Gallant, Probert, Barr, and Miller as his REGULAR linemates just furthers the point.

Notable in the table above? Yzerman is outscored by one of his regular linemates in exactly six seasons. In only one of them, 1984-85, was he healthy. In only three seasons was he outscored by both linemates. His maximum games played in one of those seasons was 52, and his total games in all of them was 119.

Some people say Tavares is better than Crosby, and Tavares a) has never been a PPG player, and b) barely outscored Matt Moulson this season. Using the metrics I have in this thread (%1/%2 for league and line) to compare him to Yzerman, he would not come anywhere NEAR Yzerman.

Looking at seasons like Yzerman's 95-96 season where he still managed 95 points shows the kind of ridiculous lack of credit given to Yzerman. He put up 34 more than his regular linemates, and was nominated for the Selke, yet received zero votes for center for the postseason AS. The same for the next season; he wasn't nominated but he still had an excellent season both ways with poor linemates and received zero votes at center. Most baffling were the votes for Mike Modano; Yzerman outscored him, had a better PPG, was better defensively, better on faceoffs, a better leader, and was the more physical player. Yet Modano finished fourth with (1-11-16); yes, someone gave 83-point Mike Modano a first-place vote over 122-point Mario Lemieux.

Stuff like THAT is part of why people consider Yzerman underrated. Because other guys had a good season and suddenly received significant notice as elite players. Yzerman had a series of elite seasons and it took a decade of winning and three Cups before he even started to get credit from most people for what he did.

One particularly interesting mathematical quirk is how Yzerman's 87-88 season lines up with Beliveau's 55-56 season. Yzerman's linemates (Gerard Gallant and Bob Probert) scored 73pts in 73GP and 62pts in 74GP, respectively. Beliveau's linemates (Bert Olmstead and Bernie Geoffrion) scored 70 in 70 and and 62 in 59. But disregarding GP, the points are almost identical and even on the same wings. Furthering that, Montreal's highest-scoring defenseman was Doug Harvey (44) compared to Darren Veitch (40) for Detroit. The numbers all seem to match. Except Yzerman had 102 points to Beliveau's 88. That doesn't match nearly as well.

I recognize the concept that Beliveau was a more complete player. But in that particular season, Yzerman's ES scoring rate was only a hundredth of a point less than a prime Mario Lemieux's. The next year, he won the Pearson, scored one fewer than prime Lemieux at ES, and outscored prime Gretzky at ES.



Yes, like being the primary penalty killer on the team, or also being used to shut down elite forwards (until Fedorov came along).



Like who exactly? Dave Barr? Shawn Burr? Gerard Gallant? Petr Klima? BOB PROBERT? Hell, Kevin Miller (as well as Kip) is used by Jagr supporters to illustrate the poor quality of linemates Jagr had, despite the fact that Kevin only played 13 games as a Penguin and scored ELEVEN points in that time, in what was already on-pace to be a career-best season for him before he was traded to the Pens. He scored 53 points in 91 games with the Wings. Which teammates did Yzerman play with during his prime that enhanced his offensive stats?



Beliveau played with Harvey, Johnson, Tremblay, etc. in their primes while he himself was in his prime. That's a BIG help; sort of like the fact that Gretzky/Kurri/Coffey had concurrent primes was the driving force of the Oilers. If Kurri and Coffey were late bloomers and hit their primes around 1985 or 1986, the Oilers are not a dynasty. Yzerman had Lidstrom's first three seasons in his prime, and just over a season of a post-prime Coffey. Mark Howe played 104 games and scored 58 points during Yzerman's prime; he was generally playing on the second or third pair and the second PP. You're doing exactly what I brought up earlier; talking about Yzerman having played on great teams with great players and using it against his great prime, as if it all happened at the same time. Of the defensemen you mentioned, Lidstrom was the FIRST one to join the team. In 1988-89, the Wings' highest-scoring D was Steve Chiasson with 47 points (30% of Yzerman, 50% of Gallant, 66% of MacLean). In 1955-56, Montreal's highest scoring D was Doug Harvey with 44 points (50% of Beliveau, 63% of Olmstead, 71% of Geoffrion). The effective change to make Harvey's percentages comparable to Chiasson's? Add 85 points to Geoffrion and 5 points to Olmstead, with no change in Beliveau's or Harvey's stats. See how ridiculous that is?

As for Murphy, he was run out of Toronto for poor performance and fit in well with the playing style of the Wings, but was at the end of his career and not nearly the Norris-challenging, HHOF-level player he once was. Chelios joined the Wings in 1999 at the traded deadline; Yzerman played two full seasons and two half-seasons with him on the roster. If this is how much you have to try to twist your argument against my points...



This is a significantly subjective matter, though. How much has player quality increased over time? Some think that it has increased a great deal and that most first-liners nowadays would be stars in the O6. There are solid arguments both ways. But one thing we can definitely say is that goaltender quality has improved a great deal, as have coaching systems - particularly defensively.

However, it is also true that the O6 teams were particularly lopsided; during Beliveau's career the majority of the talent was concentrated in Montreal and Detroit, later shifting to Montreal/Toronto/Chicago and then Montreal/Boston.

Players who would have been stars on other teams were on the second or sometimes even third lines on those teams.



This is a complete falsehood perpetrated by ignorance. Because players like Sakic, Modano, and even Lemieux entered the league as offense-only guys and were able to add a solid defensive element to their games later in their career does not mean that every player who improves their defensive game was a liability to begin with. Scott Stevens doesn't get the same "liability turned defensive star" treatment Yzerman does, yet he did the exact same thing at the exact same time; changed his game from being primarily offensive to being primarily defensive.

Interesting presentation of data, especially for the 1961-62 season.
Jean Beliveau missed the first 26 games of the season due to a training camp knee injury:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/belivje01.html

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=A44tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zp0FAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6626,1888794

Marcel Bonin played the first half of the season before suffering a back injury that forced him to eventually retire.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/boninma01.html

Note that by the time Beliveau came back Bonin had 6G and 11A, finishing with 7G and 14A before retiring. Marcel Bpnin played on a line with Henri Richard and Claude Provost. Upon returning Jran Beliveau played on a line with Gilles Tremblay and Bill Hicke:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19610084

All this data is verifiable via the HSP available on this board.

So at best there would be a seven game overlap where Bonin and Beliveau were linemates during the 1961-62 season. The data posted a major exaggeration by the poster that created the chart.

Post 1957-58 the Beliveau segment of the chart is heavily flawed especially listing the left wingers. Even a quick verification of the HSP would reveal the errors.

 

[pdd]

obviously an O6 player had better linemates than a modern player. the league was smaller and the star players were more concentrated. The question is really whether Beliveau or Yzerman had better linemates on a relative basis. Beliveau's linemates over the years don't look incredibly better than the linemates of other top players he was competing for scoring titles with. Nor do Yzerman's. A much deeper analysis is needed - much more than name dropping cherrypicked names.

Regardless, it's obvious to all who have entered this thread that Beliveau is the superior player, so I don't know what the point of such an analysis would be.

Alright, let's test your theory and examine a couple guys I've already mentioned.

Player|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Crosby|05-06|1.79|2.00|Recchi, LeClair
Crosby|06-07|1.76|3.53|Recchi, Armstrong
Crosby|07-08|1.41|3.00|Malone, Armstrong
Crosby|08-09|2.86|3.68|Satan, Dupuis
Crosby|09-10|2.42|3.41|Guerin, Kunitz
Crosby|10-11|1.38|1.78|Kunitz, Dupuis
Crosby|11-12|0.61|0.63|Kunitz, Dupuis
Crosby|12-13|1.08|1.47|Kunitz, Dupuis
Tavares|09-10|1.04|1.13|Okposo, Moulson
Tavares|10-11|1.26|1.26|Moulson, Parenteau
Tavares|11-12|1.17|1.21|Moulson, Parenteau
Tavares|12-13|1.07|1.34|Moulson, Boyes

Hmm. You know what I'm seeing here? It's not the subject of this thread, but Tavares really was never that far ahead of either of his linemates in scoring. Especially when compared to a guy like Crosby or Yzerman, who legitimately played with bad linemates and made it work at a top level anyway.

As for "obviously an O6 player had better linemates than a modern player. the league was smaller and the star players were more concentrated.", you don't seem to grasp the concept of this comparison. The "against league" chart compares them to the top scorers in the league. The "linemates" chart compares them to their linemates. It's not based on an evaluation of skill; it's based purely on offensive production. So if we assume that you take my chart at face value, given that it shows: a) that Beliveau's linemates are consistently providing a comparable level of offense to his own; b) that Yzerman consistently scored far, far more than his linemates, even late in his career when he was "done offensively"; and c) Yzerman and Beliveau have comparable v1%/v2% finishes when Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe are removed and accounted for; then it means that Yzerman stands out as the superior offensive player, even though he spent half of his career playing in a defense-first role.

 

[pdd]

Post 1957-58 the Beliveau segment of the chart is heavily flawed especially listing the left wingers. Even a quick verification of the HSP would reveal the errors.

I looked through plenty of archived copies of the Gazette, as well as looking up the specific players (including Bonin) mentioned in an earlier post regarding Beliveau's linemates to try and get the "right guys" each year. If you could point me in the correct direction as to who played on his wing in the years you object to, that would be helpful. Then I could make the alterations in my table and it would be more accurate and able to be used for comparison.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not How It Works

I looked through plenty of archived copies of the Gazette, as well as looking up the specific players (including Bonin) mentioned in an earlier post regarding Beliveau's linemates to try and get the "right guys" each year. If you could point me in the correct direction as to who played on his wing in the years you object to, that would be helpful. Then I could make the alterations in my table and it would be more accurate and able to be used for comparison.

Sadly not how research works. If the work you submitted was properly researched the errors found would not be there originally.

I already outlined the flaws and the sources for the correct data - HSP, which is linked in this forum and in my post. The full Google newspaper archives are also linked in my post - full index is a couple of clicks away.

Fail to see what more can be done to help you.

 

[pdd]

Sadly not how research works. If the work you submitted was properly researched the errors found would not be there originally.

I already outlined the flaws and the sources for the correct data - HSP, which is linked in this forum and in my post. The full Google newspaper archives are also linked in my post - full index is a couple of clicks away.

Fail to see what more can be done to help you.

Unfortunately, box scores don't always tell you who is playing with who.

At one point this season, before the "backboard game" against Vancouver (where Pavel Datsyuk intentionally banked in two goals off of Justin Abdelkader's body) there was a certain statistical quirk; in the time Abdelkader had been on Datsyuk's line before that he had not scored a goal. The only forward to score during that period with an assist from Datsyuk was Cory Emmerton, who centered the fourth line and came on the ice FOR Datsyuk; Pavel was actually off the ice when the goal was scored (this can be confirmed by the box score; it was an even strength goal in a 3-0 shutout, and Datsyuk was even).

The even-strength scoring totals from plays involving Datsyuk, from the creation of the Abdelkader/Datsyuk/Cleary line to but not including the Vancouver game, were as follows:

Niklas Kronwall 3-2-5
Dan Cleary 1-2-3
Cory Emmerton 1-0-1
Jakub Kindl 1-0-1
Jonathan Ericsson 0-1-1
Drew Miller 0-1-1
Johan Franzen 0-1-1
Jonas Gustavsson 0-1-1

From that, I can get a very good idea that Abdelkader was playing on Datsyuk's wing those games. When it comes to plays involving his center, he was outscored by the BACKUP GOALIE.

Another example would be that in 2007-08 I think it was (possibly 2008-09), Malkin was put on Crosby's right wing for a five game span in October and the pair combined for something like 14 points.

I put more trust in newspaper reports saying "these guys have been a line this season" and things pointing that direction than a box score that says "these guys were involved in a scoring play together". Again, see my Datsyuk/Emmerton example.

HSP is good for saying "This guy was in on X% of this other guy's offense".

 

[seventieslord]

Alright, let's test your theory and examine a couple guys I've already mentioned.

Player|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Crosby|05-06|1.79|2.00|Recchi, LeClair
Crosby|06-07|1.76|3.53|Recchi, Armstrong
Crosby|07-08|1.41|3.00|Malone, Armstrong
Crosby|08-09|2.86|3.68|Satan, Dupuis
Crosby|09-10|2.42|3.41|Guerin, Kunitz
Crosby|10-11|1.38|1.78|Kunitz, Dupuis
Crosby|11-12|0.61|0.63|Kunitz, Dupuis
Crosby|12-13|1.08|1.47|Kunitz, Dupuis
Tavares|09-10|1.04|1.13|Okposo, Moulson
Tavares|10-11|1.26|1.26|Moulson, Parenteau
Tavares|11-12|1.17|1.21|Moulson, Parenteau
Tavares|12-13|1.07|1.34|Moulson, Boyes

Hmm. You know what I'm seeing here? It's not the subject of this thread, but Tavares really was never that far ahead of either of his linemates in scoring. Especially when compared to a guy like Crosby or Yzerman, who legitimately played with bad linemates and made it work at a top level anyway.

As for "obviously an O6 player had better linemates than a modern player. the league was smaller and the star players were more concentrated.", you don't seem to grasp the concept of this comparison. The "against league" chart compares them to the top scorers in the league. The "linemates" chart compares them to their linemates. It's not based on an evaluation of skill; it's based purely on offensive production. So if we assume that you take my chart at face value, given that it shows: a) that Beliveau's linemates are consistently providing a comparable level of offense to his own; b) that Yzerman consistently scored far, far more than his linemates, even late in his career when he was "done offensively"; and c) Yzerman and Beliveau have comparable v1%/v2% finishes when Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe are removed and accounted for; then it means that Yzerman stands out as the superior offensive player, even though he spent half of his career playing in a defense-first role.

You're not proving what you think you're proving here. It can't be done just by comparing beliveau to Yzerman. You would need to compare Yzerman to other comparable players in his time and the same for Yzerman. That's how you'd determine whether one had a particularly advantageous or disadvantageous linemate situation. And after all that you still have to prove what the degree which a player outscored their linemates by is representative of: how good they were, how good their linemates were, how the line worked (did the other players exist to "feed" the better one?) Or how the line was used.

Unfortunately, box scores don't always tell you who is playing with who.

At one point this season, before the "backboard game" against Vancouver (where Pavel Datsyuk intentionally banked in two goals off of Justin Abdelkader's body) there was a certain statistical quirk; in the time Abdelkader had been on Datsyuk's line before that he had not scored a goal. The only forward to score during that period with an assist from Datsyuk was Cory Emmerton, who centered the fourth line and came on the ice FOR Datsyuk; Pavel was actually off the ice when the goal was scored (this can be confirmed by the box score; it was an even strength goal in a 3-0 shutout, and Datsyuk was even).

The even-strength scoring totals from plays involving Datsyuk, from the creation of the Abdelkader/Datsyuk/Cleary line to but not including the Vancouver game, were as follows:

Niklas Kronwall 3-2-5
Dan Cleary 1-2-3
Cory Emmerton 1-0-1
Jakub Kindl 1-0-1
Jonathan Ericsson 0-1-1
Drew Miller 0-1-1
Johan Franzen 0-1-1
Jonas Gustavsson 0-1-1

From that, I can get a very good idea that Abdelkader was playing on Datsyuk's wing those games. When it comes to plays involving his center, he was outscored by the BACKUP GOALIE.

Another example would be that in 2007-08 I think it was (possibly 2008-09), Malkin was put on Crosby's right wing for a five game span in October and the pair combined for something like 14 points.

I put more trust in newspaper reports saying "these guys have been a line this season" and things pointing that direction than a box score that says "these guys were involved in a scoring play together". Again, see my Datsyuk/Emmerton example.

HSP is good for saying "This guy was in on X% of this other guy's offense".

These are ridiculous small sample examples. Over the course of a season the two forwards you score the most ESP with, were almost definitely your most frequent linemates.

 

[pdd]

These are ridiculous small sample examples. Over the course of a season the two forwards you score the most ESP with, were almost definitely your most frequent linemates.

It's a 14-game sample size. I'd say that's a pretty significant chunk of a 48 game season, wouldn't you? Amusingly, those two "bank shot" goals were actually Abdelkader's second and third goals of the season, but it wasn't until he suddenly scored a hat trick a week later that he actually managed to put a shot past the opposing netminder (his first goal was EN). Abdelkader went 10-3-13 on the season, all at ES. He had one assist and no goals when he was put on Datsyuk's line. Here's the top ES scoring forwards with Datsyuk in 2012-13:

Zetterberg 3-8-11
Abdelkader 5-2-7
Filppula 2-3-5
Franzen 2-3-5
Cleary 1-2-3
Brunner 2-1-3
Bertuzzi 1-1-2

Abdelkader play the most with Datsyuk by a wide margin, Zetterberg as a distant second. Yet Zetterberg demolishes him in points, and Flip/Franzen are right there. This scoring information would tell you that Zetterberg was regularly with Dats, and that the other wing fluctuated between Abby/Flip/Franzen.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hsp

Unfortunately, box scores don't always tell you who is playing with who.

At one point this season, before the "backboard game" against Vancouver (where Pavel Datsyuk intentionally banked in two goals off of Justin Abdelkader's body) there was a certain statistical quirk; in the time Abdelkader had been on Datsyuk's line before that he had not scored a goal. The only forward to score during that period with an assist from Datsyuk was Cory Emmerton, who centered the fourth line and came on the ice FOR Datsyuk; Pavel was actually off the ice when the goal was scored (this can be confirmed by the box score; it was an even strength goal in a 3-0 shutout, and Datsyuk was even).

The even-strength scoring totals from plays involving Datsyuk, from the creation of the Abdelkader/Datsyuk/Cleary line to but not including the Vancouver game, were as follows:

Niklas Kronwall 3-2-5
Dan Cleary 1-2-3
Cory Emmerton 1-0-1
Jakub Kindl 1-0-1
Jonathan Ericsson 0-1-1
Drew Miller 0-1-1
Johan Franzen 0-1-1
Jonas Gustavsson 0-1-1

From that, I can get a very good idea that Abdelkader was playing on Datsyuk's wing those games. When it comes to plays involving his center, he was outscored by the BACKUP GOALIE.

Another example would be that in 2007-08 I think it was (possibly 2008-09), Malkin was put on Crosby's right wing for a five game span in October and the pair combined for something like 14 points.

I put more trust in newspaper reports saying "these guys have been a line this season" and things pointing that direction than a box score that says "these guys were involved in a scoring play together". Again, see my Datsyuk/Emmerton example.

HSP is good for saying "This guy was in on X% of this other guy's offense".

seventieslord has provided you with direction about the box scores found in the HSP. I have provided you with direction that clearly states that a certain player was not playing much, if at all, with another player during a specific, season. The boxscores do support this fact and the fact is further reinforced by newspaper accounts and balanced against the seasonal team and player statistics. No impact as you choose to ignore the data.

Yet you persist to praise your methodology even though your Crosby/Malkin example admits to a lack of certainty about the season - 2007-08 or 2008-09.

Then you throw in the Datsyuk numbers bolded, yet there is no evidence that you considered the TOI factors for each player listed relative to Datsyuk.All this TOI data is available for modern players yet it is absent from your presentation.

Until the reliability issues disappear from your efforts little or no consideration will be given them.

 

[Sentinel]

Loads of stats...
As far as I see it, the question is simple: "Did prime Beliveau have better linemates than prime Yzerman or not?" And the answer, as far as I see it, is a definitive "yes."

 

[Crease]

Loads of stats...
As far as I see it, the question is simple: "Did prime Beliveau have better linemates than prime Yzerman or not?" And the answer, as far as I see it, is a definitive "yes."

Absolutely. But wouldn't a better question be: "Did prime Beliveau have better linemates relative to his peers than prime Yzerman had relative to his peers?"

 

[Sentinel]

Absolutely. But wouldn't a better question be: "Did prime Beliveau have better linemates relative to his peers than prime Yzerman had relative to his peers?"

Considering that prime Beliveau's team was a dynasty and prime Yzerman's team barely made playoffs, I'd say the answer to that question is also a resounding "yes."

 

[BraveCanadian]

Someone make it stop...

 

[Sentinel]

The more I think about it, the closer it seems. Other than the obvious linemates question, which goes in Stevie's favor, the question of opposition quality also favors him. It doesn't matter how stacked and deep their opponents were, because at any given moment every star player only faces two best defensemen on the opposing team. Top defensive players in late 80s-90s were much better than in the 50s, and each team had at least one great defenseman, and naturally they focused on the lone star player on a crappy team, as opposed to a centerman on the loaded Habs squad.

 

[Epsilon]

The more I think about it, the closer it seems. Other than the obvious linemates question, which goes in Stevie's favor, the question of opposition quality also favors him. It doesn't matter how stacked and deep their opponents were, because at any given moment every star player only faces two best defensemen on the opposing team. Top defensive players in late 80s-90s were much better than in the 50s, and each team had at least one great defenseman, and naturally they focused on the lone star player on a crappy team, as opposed to a centerman on the loaded Habs squad.

The problem with this sort of reasoning is that, even though there may have been more elite defensemen in the late 80s-early 90s time period than any other era, there were not elite defensemen on most of the teams in the NHL. The worst defensemen Beliveau faced were considerably better than probably the worst half of the defensemen Yzerman faced.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Loads of stats...
As far as I see it, the question is simple: "Did prime Beliveau have better linemates than prime Yzerman or not?" And the answer, as far as I see it, is a definitive "yes."

Pretty much this, it's extremely hard to argue that Jean, for the majority of his career and especially his peak, didn't have the better situation and line mates to score goals with.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The problem with this sort of reasoning is that, even though there may have been more elite defensemen in the late 80s-early 90s time period than any other era, there were not elite defensemen on most of the teams in the NHL. The worst defensemen Beliveau faced were considerably better than probably the worst half of the defensemen Yzerman faced.

Exactly how do you come to this conclusion?

Is it in general or only for the 06 portion of Jean's career and compared to which portion of Steve's career? The 21 team league in the mid 80's or the closer to 30 team league in the later 90's and 2000's?

We also know that most of the better Dmen would be out there against Steve in matchups and we actually have some stats around that. Sadly we don't for 06 times and somewhat nostalgic musings such as above it what takes it's place.

If anything the above statement would be more true for players form the 70's were the NHL remained a largely all Canadian league much like the 06 time period but with more than 6 teams.

The further we go along in the timeline the less likely this is to be true due to the increased non Canadian players and Dmen in the league.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Exactly how do you come to this conclusion?

Is it in general or only for the 06 portion of Jean's career and compared to which portion of Steve's career? The 21 team league in the mid 80's or the closer to 30 team league in the later 90's and 2000's?

We also know that most of the better Dmen would be out there against Steve in matchups and we actually have some stats around that. Sadly we don't for 06 times and somewhat nostalgic musings such as above it what takes it's place.

If anything the above statement would be more true for players form the 70's were the NHL remained a largely all Canadian league much like the 06 time period but with more than 6 teams.

The further we go along in the timeline the less likely this is to be true due to the increased non Canadian players and Dmen in the league.

It's pretty simple really.

In Yzerman's time, there were opportunities for him to be facing a 3rd line pairing that could be the 126th best d-man in the League paired with the 100th best in the League. Not even the 126th and 100th best in the world either because as you like to point out oh so often, there were some top D-men not even playing in the NHL during Stevie's prime.

For Beliveau however, even if the 3rd pairing he is facing consists of the two worst D-men in the League, that still meant he was facing the 35th and 36th best D-men in the world.

Further expanding on this, you take the best checker not playing for the Habs in Beliveau's day and Jean faced him a minimum of 14 times a season or 20% of the time.
Yzerman would have faced the best checker not playing for the Wings at most 8 times or 10% of the time to as little as twice or 2.5% of the time.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It's pretty simple really.

In Yzerman's time, there were opportunities for him to be facing a 3rd line pairing that could be the 126th best d-man in the League paired with the 100th best in the League. Not even the 126th and 100th best in the world either because as you like to point out oh so often, there were some top D-men not even playing in the NHL during Stevie's prime.

For Beliveau however, even if the 3rd pairing he is facing consists of the two worst D-men in the League, that still meant he was facing the 35th and 36th best D-men in the world.

Even if the above had any validity or commonality how often did Steve face the 3rd pairing on the against the other team, maybe 10% over his career at best?

There is also the change in the way the game was played over time and for the last half of Steve's career teams employed much better defensive systems and the change in goalie equipment and the referring, ie all that clutch and grabbing has an affect as well.

either way we don't ahve any good way to cmapre thsi group

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

with this one that will be fair and objective

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

Top 100 Canadian Dmen playing and then the top 100 Dmen in GP in 85-86.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

The breakdown for the top 100 Dmen in terms of GP is 69-31 for Canadian and other.

Even if we believe the fallacy of Canada always producing the same amount of talent, which has to be a fallacy given the nature of the game in Canada, it would be almost impossible for the player pool not to get larger over time with more players playing at top levels.

We know more about the quality of Dman later on in Steve's career because for the last 10 years or so we can isolate more who he was on the ice with and against (for the 06 guys this information is lacking and in the History section we know where the benefit of the doubt goes).