Your top 10 all time list, as of the 2022 offseason

[DaaaaB's]

That's why I don't have Russell in my top 10, despite many having him top 5. Too much of his legacy is about him as a "winner." Basically point #1 I said in my OP. Worth pointing out that he had 7 HOF players, which is disproportionately high for a 13 year career.

Well, those teams stacked with hall of famers didn't win anything the two years Russell was injured.

 

[Jack Straw]

That's why I don't have Russell in my top 10, despite many having him top 5. Too much of his legacy is about him as a "winner." Basically point #1 I said in my OP. Worth pointing out that he had 7 HOF players, which is disproportionately high for a 13 year career.

I think a lot of people would say that he was the best of those players.

 

[Neutrinos]

Bill Russell Elimination Game Stats | StatMuse

Bill Russell averaged 26.6 rebounds and 14.9 points in 19 games in elimination games in his career.

www.statmuse.com

Crazy

Bill Russell

4/18/1962

BOS

vs

LAL

53

30

40

4

8

18

44.4

30 points and 40 rebounds lol

There was a 3 game stretch in there where he had a total of 21 points on 8 for 22 shooting in 138 minutes

Factor in the rules of his era, as well as the size and athleticism of the players back then, and do you really think Russell was able to accomplish something that players like David Robinson and Kevin Garnett wouldn't have been able to achieve?

 

[LightningStorm]

I think a lot of people would say that he was the best of those players.

Sure, but that's still an insane supporting cast.

 

[mrmovies779]

There was a 3 game stretch in there where he had a total of 21 points on 8 for 22 shooting in 138 minutes

Factor in the rules of his era, as well as the size and athleticism of the players back then, and do you really think Russell was able to accomplish something that players like David Robinson and Kevin Garnett wouldn't have been able to achieve?

The great words spoken by the legendary Hondo, on behalf of his teammate. "Russell was the key to our offense, when it came to Russ, his defense was always talked about, but rather it was his team-first mentality on the offensive side, being able to put aside the points, and become the best passer on our team".

 

[jcs0218]

Well, if we're just making a list of players that we wish were top 10 all time regardless of merit, here's mine:

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Bronny James
Jim Halpert
Isiah Thomas
Isaiah Thomas
Jim Thorpe
The Morris Twins
Sidney Deane

I think Billy Hoyle should rank ahead of Sidney Deane.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Sure, but that's still an insane supporting cast.

It was actually 8 other hall of famers who won at least 4 titles and 5 more who won 1 or 2 titles. It's possible some of them wouldn't have made the hall without the titles and they wouldn't have won them without Russell. Generally, I agree about Championships being a team thing but winning 11 titles in 13 years while being injured in the two they didn't win is something special. I certainly don't have problem with guys like Hakeem and Duncan being ranked above Russell. I'm also not a Celtics fan for anyone who wants to call me a homer.

 

[LightningStorm]

It was actually 8 other hall of famers who won at least 4 titles and 5 more who won 1 or 2 titles. It's possible some of them wouldn't have made the hall without the titles and they wouldn't have won them without Russell. Generally, I agree about Championships being a team thing but winning 11 titles in 13 years while being injured in the two they didn't win is something special. I certainly don't have problem with guys like Hakeem and Duncan being ranked above Russell. I'm also not a Celtics fan for anyone who wants to call me a homer.

For centers, I have Russell #6.

1. Wilt
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Duncan (consider him a C rather than PF)
6. Russell

 

[Neutrinos]

For centers, I have Russell #6.

1. Wilt
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Duncan (consider him a C rather than PF)
6. Russell

It looks as though your list isn't based on resume, but rather the skill/production of each player

If that's the case, I think you do a disservice to David Robinson by putting him after Russell

Wilt age 23 - 33 (799 games/37218 minutes)
28.1 PER, .54 TS%,126.6 OWS, 74.1 DWS, 200.6 WS, .259 WS/48

KAJ age 23 - 33 (853 games/34356 minutes)
27.1 PER, .593 TS%, 125.7 OWS, 65.6 DWS, 191.3 WS, .267 WS/48

Shaq age 21 - 33 (860 games/31720 minutes)
28.3 PER, .584 TS%, 101.3 OWS, 50.7 DWS, 152 WS, .230 WS/48

Olajuwon age 23 - 33 (818 games/31067 minutes)
24.9 PER, .557 TS%, 52.6 OWS, 71.2 DWS, 123.8 WS, .191 WS/48

Duncan age 23 - 33 (845 games, 30412 minutes)
25.4 PER, .552 TS%, 70.9 OWS, 69.8 DWS, 140.8 WS, .222 WS/48

Russell age 23 - 33 (838 games/35740 minutes)
19.1 PER, .473 TS%, 27.2 OWS, 119.1 DWS, 146.4 WS, .197 WS/48

Robinson age 24 - 35 (845 games/30292 minutes)
27.1 PER, .586 TS%, 91.1 OWS, 71.4 DWS, 162.5 WS, .258 WS/48


Russell's offensive deficiencies are simply too great to warrant a place ahead of Robinson on an all time best players list given Robinson's excellence at both ends of the court

 

[LightningStorm]

It looks as though your list isn't based on resume, but rather the skill/production of each player

Correct, skill and production means more to me than awards voted on. It's pretty much always the 2 things I find most important, though not the only things.

If that's the case, I think you do a disservice to David Robinson by putting him after Russell

Wilt age 23 - 33 (799 games/37218 minutes)
28.1 PER, .54 TS%,126.6 OWS, 74.1 DWS, 200.6 WS, .259 WS/48

KAJ age 23 - 33 (853 games/34356 minutes)
27.1 PER, .593 TS%, 125.7 OWS, 65.6 DWS, 191.3 WS, .267 WS/48

Shaq age 21 - 33 (860 games/31720 minutes)
28.3 PER, .584 TS%, 101.3 OWS, 50.7 DWS, 152 WS, .230 WS/48

Olajuwon age 23 - 33 (818 games/31067 minutes)
24.9 PER, .557 TS%, 52.6 OWS, 71.2 DWS, 123.8 WS, .191 WS/48

Duncan age 23 - 33 (845 games, 30412 minutes)
25.4 PER, .552 TS%, 70.9 OWS, 69.8 DWS, 140.8 WS, .222 WS/48

Russell age 23 - 33 (838 games/35740 minutes)
19.1 PER, .473 TS%, 27.2 OWS, 119.1 DWS, 146.4 WS, .197 WS/48

Robinson age 24 - 35 (845 games/30292 minutes)
27.1 PER, .586 TS%, 91.1 OWS, 71.4 DWS, 162.5 WS, .258 WS/48


Russell's offensive deficiencies are simply too great to warrant a place ahead of Robinson on an all time best players list given Robinson's excellence at both ends of the court

Robinson is who I have at #7. Peak wise, he's #5, only trailing the top 4. He's definitely one of the more underappreciated players. Russell was an elite rebounder and defender, so that counts for something.

Robinson would be ranked higher if not for his back and foot injuries during the 96/97 season, which brought a sudden end to his peak form. This was how the Spurs, who were already contenders in the 90's, were bad enough to draft Duncan due to the complete timing fluke of Robinson getting hurt before Duncan's draft year. If not for that injury he likely ranks higher, though since he likely doesn't win a ring people would wrongly put him in the category of Ewing when Robinson was clearly better than him.

 

[Neutrinos]

Correct, skill and production means more to me than awards voted on. It's pretty much always the 2 things I find most important, though not the only things.

Robinson is who I have at #7. Peak wise, he's #5, only trailing the top 4. He's definitely one of the more underappreciated players. Russell was an elite rebounder and defender, so that counts for something.

Robinson would be ranked higher if not for his back and foot injuries during the 96/97 season, which brought a sudden end to his peak form. This was how the Spurs, who were already contenders in the 90's, were bad enough to draft Duncan due to the complete timing fluke of Robinson getting hurt before Duncan's draft year. If not for that injury he likely ranks higher, though since he likely doesn't win a ring people would wrongly put him in the category of Ewing when Robinson was clearly better than him.

Robinson's stats from '98 to his retirement:
23.4 PER, .565 TS%, .235 WS/48

Only once in his career did Russell post a WS/48 above .235 (.238 in '64)

And in the seasons following his injury, Robinson was still good enough to lead to the league in WS/48 3x, DBPM 1x, and BPM 1x

Russell only ever lead the league in DWS

 

[Voight]

Russell at times has ben the most overrated player in NBA history.

He won a lot, which is great, and is certainly an all time great but people tend to forget that he had some great talent around him there wouldn't be the same lore around him had he won say 3 or 4 titles.

 

[LightningStorm]

Robinson's stats from '98 to his retirement:
23.4 PER, .565 TS%, .235 WS/48

Only once in his career did Russell post a WS/48 above .235 (.238 in '64)

And in the seasons following his injury, Robinson was still good enough to lead to the league in WS/48 3x, DBPM 1x, and BPM 1x

Russell only ever lead the league in DWS

Looking into their advanced stats, Robinson does come out ahead, even from 1998 through the end of his career. Plus his peak blows Russell out of the water, and they played the same amount of seasons.

I even think Robinson is closer to his teammate Duncan than a lot of people think. Peaked higher due to being a better scorer, and while many credit Duncan as the foundation of the Spurs culture, I think he inherited a noticeable part of that foundation from Robinson. Popovich also grew into and improved into his coaching role more too. However, Duncan's longevity brings him past Robinson career wise. And unlike Russell, Duncan was at least a good enough scorer to be the #1 option on a team, so peak wise he definitely comes closer to Robinson's peak than Russell does.

Russell at times has ben the most overrated player in NBA history.

He won a lot, which is great, and is certainly an all time great but people tend to forget that he had some great talent around him there wouldn't be the same lore around him had he won say 3 or 4 titles.

People build him up as this mythical figure who made his teammates better, leading them to winning 11 championships. Conveniently ignoring Red Auerbach being probably the greatest coach in NBA history, and he also put that team together. Or that Bob Cousy was clearly on a Hall of Fame trajectory before Russell was even in the NBA. I've never second guessed not having him in my top 10. I mean, Henri Richard has an NHL record 11 Stanley Cup wins as a player, tied with Russell as the most in Big 4 North American sports history.

 

[Blitzkrug]

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
4) Chamberlain
5) Shaq
6) Russell
7) Magic
8) Bird
9) Kobe
10) Hakeem

HMs: Curry, Dirk, Duncan, Garnett

I feel like you cant really argue Russell isn't top 10. People bitch and moan about stacked teams and how he played against soup cans of whatever. The fact of the matter is he was a defensive powerhouse in an era where those players were valued above all else given most offense came from below the basket/behind the free throw line.

He dominated the league to a level very few people did.


Kobe's usually the guy that's too high on these lists. Top 10 for sure, but putting him right under under Jordan and LeBron is a bit ridiculous

 

[Neutrinos]

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
4) Chamberlain
5) Shaq
6) Russell
7) Magic
8) Bird
9) Kobe
10) Hakeem

HMs: Curry, Dirk, Duncan, Garnett

I feel like you cant really argue Russell isn't top 10. People bitch and moan about stacked teams and how he played against soup cans of whatever. The fact of the matter is he was a defensive powerhouse in an era where those players were valued above all else given most offense came from below the basket/behind the free throw line.

He dominated the league to a level very few people did.


Kobe's usually the guy that's too high on these lists. Top 10 for sure, but putting him right under under Jordan and LeBron is a bit ridiculous

Nothing you said is true

 

[LightningStorm]

Nothing you said is true

What's your top 10?

 

[DaaaaB's]

Russell at times has ben the most overrated player in NBA history.

He won a lot, which is great, and is certainly an all time great but people tend to forget that he had some great talent around him there wouldn't be the same lore around him had he won say 3 or 4 titles.

He was by the far the best player on those teams though and they didn't win the two years without him. His offensive numbers that get held against him likely would've been higher if there wasn't so much other talent on the team too. Auerbach wanted him to concentrate on defense first. As for his lore if he only won 3 or 4 titles, it doesn't matter because he won 11. The other hall of famers all came and went but Russell won all 11. Anyone who says Russell is better than Wilt, Kareem or Shaq is overating him but he's right up there with any other C.

 

[LightningStorm]

He was by the far the best player on those teams though and they didn't win the two years without him. His offensive numbers that get held against him likely would've been higher if there wasn't so much other talent on the team too. Auerbach wanted him to concentrate on defense first. As for his lore if he only won 3 or 4 titles, it doesn't matter because he won 11. The other hall of famers all came and went but Russell won all 11. Anyone who says Russell is better than Wilt, Kareem or Shaq is overating him but he's right up there with any other C.

But many do rank him higher than those 3 centers (who are my top 3 at that position), which is a big reason people claim he's overrated.

Regarding your first point, I wouldn't consider him by far the Celtics best player. Off the top of my head, Bob Cousy and John Havlicek both had legendary careers, even in their careers before/after they were teammates with Russell.

 

[Neutrinos]

What's your top 10?

I don't have one

 

[DaaaaB's]

I don't have one

Why not? You sure like to criticize everyone else's list.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Why not? You sure like to criticize everyone else's list.

He mostly likes to discredit Kobe Bryant.

 

[Neutrinos]

So, the majority of lists posted thus far have included Kobe, but players like Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, and Chris Paul haven't so much as received an honourable mention

Let's go to the stats, shall we?

Kobe age 21 - 34 (40335 minutes)
24.1 PER, .556 TS%, 115.2 OWS, 44.9 DWS, 160.1 WS, .190 WS/48, 5.3 OBPM, 0.1 DBPM, 5.4 BPM, 75.2 VORP

Malone age 25 - 37 (38973 minutes - 1362 fewer than Kobe)
25.8 PER, .591 TS%, 124.3 OWS, 66.1 DWS, 190.4 WS. .235 WS/48, 5.5 OBPM, 1.1 DBPM, 6.5 BPM, 83.8 VORP

Barkley age 22 - 35 (36363 minutes - 3972 fewer than Kobe)
25.1 PER, .614 TS%, 117.8 OWS, 50.0 DWS, 167.8 WS, .221 WS/48, 5.7 OBPM, 0.8 DBPM, 6.5 BPM, 77.7 VORP

Paul age 20 - 36 (39896 minutes - 439 fewer than Kobe)
24.6 PER, .583 TS%, 144.9 OWS, 54.0 DWS, 198.9 WS, .239 WS/48, 5.1 OBPM, 2.2 DBPM, 7.3 BPM, 93.7 VORP


Once again we see Kobe's on-court value fall considerably short of players who are thought to have been inferior

To put those stats in perspective, Barkley could've played every minute of an additional 82 game season, and he still would have finished with fewer minutes played than Kobe. And yet, despite the discrepancy in floor time, Barkley still beats Kobe in the counting stats as well as the averages

But Kobe was better, right?

Why not? You sure like to criticize everyone else's list.

Because I can't say with any certainty who the top 10 players of all time are

 

[Megahab]

My list:

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Chamberlain
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10, Kobe

 

[Fantomas]

1. MJ
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. James
4. Chamberlain
5. Johnson
6. Bird
7. O'Neal
8. Bryant
9. Robinson
10. K. Malone

 

[JackSlater]

Jordan
James
Chamberlain
Abdul-Jabbar
Bird
Johnson
O'Neal
Durant
Olajuwon
West