Nathaniel Skywalker
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2013
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He does lol. I’ve been to lazy to correct that guy myself. He’s 22Uh doesn't he turn 22 in two weeks.
He does lol. I’ve been to lazy to correct that guy myself. He’s 22Uh doesn't he turn 22 in two weeks.
Uh doesn't he turn 22 in two weeks.
Wasn't trying to make a specific prediction or claim, I just find the top players in history, especially among forwards, have such unique strengths and weaknesses on their resumes. He already is hard to rate vs. Crosby's first four seasons given Crosby's playoff success.
The current Oilers look like crap that may be hard to overcome in the cap world unlike teams in Mario's era.
Oh yes he is, you missed upthread where PPG is a junk stat and that points isn't a very good way to measure production.
Didnt Sid actually had a better 41game stretch pointwise in 06-07 than in 10-11? But we all know he wasnt in the same level.
What makes Sid 10-11 special is
- H scored goals at same rate as Ovie did in 07-08 which for a center is rare.
- Malkin wasnt there, so Sid got the full attention.
- He had a 25game point streak (24+26), which had not happened for 20ish years.
- It has been said by many (incl Sid himself) that it was by far the best hockey he had played in his career. Eyetest needed here of course, but he was as dominant as anyone in the past 15years.
Hmm, wait! All of those actually favor more...Ding ding ding ding, we have a winner: Ovechkin. Its really hard to compete with those, since
a) Ovie is the goat goalscorer and his primary task is goal scoring, vs Sid primary a playmaker
b) has the best single season (and 3 year peak) in this century vs Sid who really didnt see his peak (at least turned into hardware or full seasons)
c) has won 166161 Richard trophies vs Sid only winning two.
So its 3-0 advantage for Ovie against Sid and this will not change, so its quite good arguments you have picked there.
Luckily we have people who like to look the whole book of work for both players, and majority of people seem to favor Sid. But maybe that is just canadian bias.
He won those with very small margins its certainly not a lock. Heck when Patrick Kane won his ross he scored 17 points more than 2nd place. Im not saying Mcdavid isn't the favorite to win it, I'm just saying he does have a LOT of quality competition. MacKinnon, Rant, and a few others are definitely in the race and its a lot closer than most think.No other generational players as far as I can see, compared to for example the situation Ovie/Geno/Sid had.
Art Ross winners during their peak/prime:
07: Sid
08: Ovie
09: Malkin
10: Sedin (Ovie would have won)
11: Sedin (Sid would have won)
12: Malkin
13: St Louis (Sid would have won)
14: Sid
Without injuries the big three would have split the Art Ross for eight years straight. Now Sedins and St Louis got three due to Sid/Ovie playing less games.
Its all for Connor since there is no one like him in the league, altough Kucherov/Mackinnon and others are really good players.
2017: Connor
2018: Connor
... and the list will continue like that.
Also - disagree completely. Things change so fast in the salary cap era from 1 year to the next. The past 10 years are full of teams going from last to first and vice versa. The Oilers could win the next 3 cups for all we know - it's actually more plausible in today's era than back in the 80s with Lemieux.
Without injuries Ovie would have won in 2009 as well.
Season | Age | GP | G | A | PTS | +/- | 2nd A | Primary PTS | Primary PTS/GP |
2006 | 18 | 81 | 39 | 63 | 102 | -1 | 19 | 83 | 1.02 |
2007 | 19 | 79 | 36 | 84 | 120 | 10 | 35 | 85 | 1.08 |
2008 | 20 | 53 | 24 | 48 | 72 | 18 | 15 | 57 | 1.08 |
2009 | 21 | 77 | 33 | 70 | 103 | 3 | 19 | 84 | 1.09 |
2010 | 22 | 81 | 51 | 58 | 109 | 15 | 22 | 87 | 1.07 |
2011 | 23 | 41 | 32 | 34 | 66 | 20 | 14 | 52 | 1.27 |
2012 | 24 | 22 | 8 | 29 | 37 | 15 | 13 | 24 | 1.09 |
2013 | 25 | 36 | 15 | 41 | 56 | 26 | 13 | 43 | 1.19 |
2014 | 26 | 80 | 36 | 68 | 104 | 18 | 34 | 70 | 0.88 |
2015 | 27 | 77 | 28 | 56 | 84 | 5 | 25 | 59 | 0.77 |
2016 | 28 | 80 | 36 | 49 | 85 | 19 | 21 | 64 | 0.80 |
2017 | 29 | 75 | 44 | 45 | 89 | 17 | 17 | 72 | 0.96 |
2018 | 30 | 82 | 29 | 60 | 89 | 0 | 27 | 62 | 0.76 |
Totals | 864 | 411 | 705 | 1116 | 165 | 274 | 842 | 0.97 | |
Best 3-yr stretch | 99 | 55 | 104 | 159 | 61 | 40 | 119 | 1.20 |
Season | Age | GP | G | A | PTS | +/- | 2nd A | Primary PTS | Primary PTS/GP |
2006 | 20 | 81 | 52 | 54 | 106 | 2 | 18 | 88 | 1.09 |
2007 | 21 | 82 | 46 | 46 | 92 | -19 | 14 | 78 | 0.95 |
2008 | 22 | 82 | 65 | 47 | 112 | 28 | 11 | 101 | 1.23 |
2009 | 23 | 79 | 56 | 54 | 110 | 8 | 22 | 88 | 1.11 |
2010 | 24 | 72 | 50 | 59 | 109 | 45 | 22 | 87 | 1.21 |
2011 | 25 | 79 | 32 | 53 | 85 | 24 | 23 | 62 | 0.78 |
2012 | 26 | 78 | 38 | 27 | 65 | -8 | 13 | 52 | 0.67 |
2013 | 27 | 48 | 32 | 24 | 56 | 2 | 11 | 45 | 0.94 |
2014 | 28 | 78 | 51 | 28 | 79 | -35 | 11 | 68 | 0.87 |
2015 | 29 | 81 | 53 | 28 | 81 | 10 | 7 | 74 | 0.91 |
2016 | 30 | 79 | 50 | 21 | 71 | 21 | 15 | 56 | 0.71 |
2017 | 31 | 82 | 33 | 36 | 69 | 6 | 16 | 53 | 0.65 |
2018 | 32 | 82 | 49 | 38 | 87 | 3 | 18 | 69 | 0.84 |
Totals | 1003 | 607 | 515 | 1122 | 87 | 201 | 921 | 0.92 | |
Best 3-yr stretch | 233 | 171 | 160 | 331 | 81 | 55 | 276 | 1.18 |
As for the whole secondary assist thing benefiting Crosby, this is an assertion that can (and honestly needs to) be analyzed.
I'm sure that ardent Crosby supporters will interpret this post to suit their purposes, and I'm equally sure that the ardent Ovechkin supporters will do the same.
You are comparing the fantasy achievements of three different players to one player. So McDavid has to be as good as Ovechkins, Malkins and Crosbys best seasons combined and stay perfectly healthy.No other generational players as far as I can see, compared to for example the situation Ovie/Geno/Sid had.
Art Ross winners during their peak/prime:
07: Sid
08: Ovie
09: Malkin
10: Sedin (Ovie would have won)
11: Sedin (Sid would have won)
12: Malkin
13: St Louis (Sid would have won)
14: Sid
Without injuries the big three would have split the Art Ross for eight years straight. Now Sedins and St Louis got three due to Sid/Ovie playing less games.
Its all for Connor since there is no one like him in the league, altough Kucherov/Mackinnon and others are really good players.
2017: Connor
2018: Connor
... and the list will continue like that.
You are comparing the fantasy achievements of three different players to one player. So McDavid has to be as good as Ovechkins, Malkins and Crosbys best seasons combined and stay perfectly healthy.
Your method doesn't make sense. If McDavid wins eight straigth Art Rosses he's much better than Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin level.
I know we can go too far with the bad teammates thing, but for perspective the Oilers are currently icing an NHL team where the most goals scored by any winger this season is 2.
I'm sure that ardent Crosby supporters will interpret this post to suit their purposes, and I'm equally sure that the ardent Ovechkin supporters will do the same.
I know we can go too far with the bad teammates thing, but for perspective the Oilers are currently icing an NHL team where the most goals scored by any winger this season is 2.
He’s not barely 21. He turns 22 in a weekok so he's 21 instead of 20. Doesn't change my point.
We did a top 40 playoff performers of all time on this forum a few years ago. Top 6 included, Richard, Beliveau, and Harvey.
Richard's first playoff run was at age 22.
Beliveau's first playoff run was at age 22
Harvey's first playoff run was at age 24. His first decent playoff run - probably after that.
The point is he's young. Don't start projecting about how McDavid will have a weak playoff resume in his career when he's barely 21. Give it 5-6 more years to see how things shape out before you start making such assumptions.
He’s not barely 21. He turns 22 in a week
I agree with you it is to early. But you keep saying he is 20. Then switched too barely 21. No he’s 22 years old all I’m saying lolHow does this have anything to do with my argument? lol
Next thing I know you'll try to correct my spelling and grammar too.
Either admit what I say makes sense and move on - or counter the logic of what I'm saying with something of consistence.
ie - it's waaaaay to early to project McDavid as a weak playoff performer in his career. Give it 5-6 more years and see where things stand.
p.s. Sakic is another great example. First playoff run at 23 - but his first real "good" one was at age 26. It turned out pretty good for him playoff-wise...
I know we can go too far with the bad teammates thing, but for perspective the Oilers are currently icing an NHL team where the most goals scored by any winger this season is 2.
He’s 4th in scoring as a 22 year old. How is that extra special?My expectations for Crosby after 2007 were very high.
In 2003(Crosby is 16) you have Gretzky answering the question of if a player might break his records one day with; "Yes, Sidney Crosby. He's the best player I've seen since Mario [Lemieux].". Nowadays we all kinda realize that Gretzky just likes to say things like this but at the time this was huge. Fast forward less than 4 years later and Crosby becomes (and still is) the only teenager to win a scoring title among the major NA professional sports. It looked like the sky was the limit.
Then the injuries come.
Maybe Crosby keeps trending upwards if he doesn't get the high ankle sprain. Maybe Crosby gets a true peak period in his career if some doofus doesn't plow into his head in 2011. Maybe he has a more impressive trophy case if Brooks Orpik could hit the broad side of a barn with a slapshot. But those injuries happened. Sucks, but..
That Crosby is still arguably a top 4-5 player ever at his position despite the injuries says enough about him as a player I think.
Also this thread was really hijacked into another Crosby/OV debate? People for the most part made up their minds on these players years ago and it's not going to change.
Count me as someone rooting for McDavid to dominate in a way Crosby did not. All of the people who complain/don't watch the game nowadays are truly missing out this year. Halfway through and this season feels special. Like one people will wax poetics about 20 years from now.
He’s 4th in scoring as a 22 year old. How is that extra special?
Chiasson isn't playing these days.I didn't believe you i had to look it up
Alex Chiasson has 16 goals.
Puljujarvi has 3
And of course Drai/RNH sometimes play Wing too.
Still - damn that's pretty bad.
I just like to stay consistent on that issue. A secondary assist is the same in 1970, 1980, 1990 and 2019. The same players can benefit from it and the better players benefit from it more because they are involved in a play more. If Crosby for instance had a game where he had 4 assists but 3 of them, or even 4 of them were all secondary do we not still say he had a great game? Chances are he did have a great game and he was incredibly noticeable out there. Just like any other player in NHL history who did the same thing, chances are you noticed him being involved in the play a lot.
There doesn't seem to be any statistical conclusions to draw from those numbers and no statistical reason to dig any deeper. If the purpose is to put any 2nd assist discussion to bed once and for all would that be a biased position?
BTW, their playoff primary point stats are as follows:
Crosby - 160 games played, 137 primary points, PPG - 0.87
Ovechkin - 121 games played, 92 primary points, PPG - 0.76