Young Sidney Crosby or Young Dale Hawerchuk?
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tony d
Registered User
Young Crosby. Still young Hawerchuk and Hawerchuk, in general, didn't get much of a chance playing for the Jets for the first part of his career.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Crosby was much better.
Hawerchuk was extremely talented, but he wasn't a good two-way player at all, and although his Jets typically weren't a very good team, they had some seasons where they were reasonably competitive. However, the Oilers walked all over them time and time again. The Jets managed to beat the Flames twice in the playoffs and the Flames did beat the Oilers in '86 and they won it all in '89. Winnipeg's playoff futility against EDM reflects poorly on the team and on Hawerchuk himself to come extent. I'm not suggesting WPG stood much of a chance to defeated the playoffs in any series except the 1990 one, but the Jets typically put up virtually no fight whatsoever and they coughed up a 3-1 series lead to EDM with Gretzky no longer on the Oilers.
I'm not sure I understand the basis for the comparison. I don't see how Hawerchuk was better than players like young Stamkos or Kovalchuk (not meant as a slight by any means - those two are/were world class talents themselves) and SS and Kovalchuk have never been considered on par with or superior to Crosby.
Hawerchuk was extremely talented, but he wasn't a good two-way player at all, and although his Jets typically weren't a very good team, they had some seasons where they were reasonably competitive. However, the Oilers walked all over them time and time again. The Jets managed to beat the Flames twice in the playoffs and the Flames did beat the Oilers in '86 and they won it all in '89. Winnipeg's playoff futility against EDM reflects poorly on the team and on Hawerchuk himself to come extent. I'm not suggesting WPG stood much of a chance to defeated the playoffs in any series except the 1990 one, but the Jets typically put up virtually no fight whatsoever and they coughed up a 3-1 series lead to EDM with Gretzky no longer on the Oilers.
I'm not sure I understand the basis for the comparison. I don't see how Hawerchuk was better than players like young Stamkos or Kovalchuk (not meant as a slight by any means - those two are/were world class talents themselves) and SS and Kovalchuk have never been considered on par with or superior to Crosby.
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The Panther
Registered User
It's certainly Crosby, although after going back and looking at the stats, it's actually closer than I thought at first.
By the way, Crosby did not have teammates like Malkin his first year. (He did have an old, beat-up Mario Lemieux for 26 games, but he was 20% of his old self.)
Yet as a rookie, Crosby finished 6th in NHL points (and PPG). In "total" on-ice goals-for and goals-against, Crosby was +51 on a .354 team. The only thing preventing Crosby from an easy walk as rookie-of-the-year was the previous season's lockout, which made a slightly older Ovechkin a rookie in 2005-06.
Hawerchuk, I guess, pips Crosby is that he did win the Calder in 1982 (probably rather easily), but he wasn't even in the top-10 scorers (tied for 12th). However, I like the effect Hawerchuk had on his team. They were last overall -- one of the worst teams ever, in fact -- the previous season, but upon his joining they improved to .500. His "total" on-ice goals-for and goals-against was a solid +47, though Crosby's +50 is more impressive given his team was worse and it was a lower-scoring period.
Crosby wins fairly easily, but when you factor in Hawerchuk's effect on his team, it's closer than I at first thought. (However, a great deal of the Jets' improvement likely goes to new coach Tom Watt as well.)
BTW, here's an interview with Hawerchuk as a young rookie:
By the way, Crosby did not have teammates like Malkin his first year. (He did have an old, beat-up Mario Lemieux for 26 games, but he was 20% of his old self.)
Yet as a rookie, Crosby finished 6th in NHL points (and PPG). In "total" on-ice goals-for and goals-against, Crosby was +51 on a .354 team. The only thing preventing Crosby from an easy walk as rookie-of-the-year was the previous season's lockout, which made a slightly older Ovechkin a rookie in 2005-06.
Hawerchuk, I guess, pips Crosby is that he did win the Calder in 1982 (probably rather easily), but he wasn't even in the top-10 scorers (tied for 12th). However, I like the effect Hawerchuk had on his team. They were last overall -- one of the worst teams ever, in fact -- the previous season, but upon his joining they improved to .500. His "total" on-ice goals-for and goals-against was a solid +47, though Crosby's +50 is more impressive given his team was worse and it was a lower-scoring period.
Crosby wins fairly easily, but when you factor in Hawerchuk's effect on his team, it's closer than I at first thought. (However, a great deal of the Jets' improvement likely goes to new coach Tom Watt as well.)
BTW, here's an interview with Hawerchuk as a young rookie:
Laineux
Registered User
- Aug 1, 2011
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The answer is obejctively Sidney Crosby AINERC and any other answer is objectively wrong. Crosby is the best player of a generation and making a case for top 5 all-time even with injuries destroying several of his best years.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Young? Like up to age 21?
It's unfair to look at playoffs since young Hawerchuk's Jets were bounced three times by the dynasty Oilers.
But in terms of regular season performances relative to their peers:
Crosby was 2nd, 2nd, 7th in assists (behind Thornton and Malkin). He won the Hart and Art Ross one year.
Hawerchuk was 7th in goals (two shy of being just behind Gretzky, Kurri Bossy), 8th and 4th in assists (behind Gretzky, Coffey, Dionne). He won the Calder and another year was runner-up for the Hart (to - of course - Gretzky).
The edge goes to Crosby. But the difference flatters Dale. It ain't such a huge difference in performances, all things considered.
Here is Dale next to a teammate who scored 14 points in 6 games to lead the 1982 world championships but not enough against the Soviets in the semifinal, Canada having to settle for the bronze.
It's unfair to look at playoffs since young Hawerchuk's Jets were bounced three times by the dynasty Oilers.
But in terms of regular season performances relative to their peers:
Crosby was 2nd, 2nd, 7th in assists (behind Thornton and Malkin). He won the Hart and Art Ross one year.
Hawerchuk was 7th in goals (two shy of being just behind Gretzky, Kurri Bossy), 8th and 4th in assists (behind Gretzky, Coffey, Dionne). He won the Calder and another year was runner-up for the Hart (to - of course - Gretzky).
The edge goes to Crosby. But the difference flatters Dale. It ain't such a huge difference in performances, all things considered.
Here is Dale next to a teammate who scored 14 points in 6 games to lead the 1982 world championships but not enough against the Soviets in the semifinal, Canada having to settle for the bronze.
Thenameless
Registered User
- Apr 29, 2014
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Dale Hawerchuk. I wouldn't call him a favourite of mine, but I did like him a lot. After he retired, I enjoyed watching him come to play in Legends of Hockey games. He has an effortless stride and just seems to glide forever out there. Smooth, with a natural scorer's touch.
He shouldn't be compared with someone like Crosby though even when using their early careers where he was strong. Crosby is just plain too good.
He shouldn't be compared with someone like Crosby though even when using their early careers where he was strong. Crosby is just plain too good.
Howie Hodge
Zombie Woof
Ducky was an awesome offensive talent in an offensive minded NHL. Too bad he started to break down physically in his early 30's or he'd have put up a quite a few more points. (And that's really saying something.)
He was, however; no where's near the all around player Sidney Crosby has shown himself to be. Sid wins the battles every where on the ice, and is a an absolute horse. I'm sure were Crosby to have played in the 80's his offensive numbers would be at least comparable to Dale's, if not better.
He was, however; no where's near the all around player Sidney Crosby has shown himself to be. Sid wins the battles every where on the ice, and is a an absolute horse. I'm sure were Crosby to have played in the 80's his offensive numbers would be at least comparable to Dale's, if not better.
The Panther
Registered User
They are comparable to Dale's already in raw numbers, aren't they....?
Hawerchuk
130 121 105 103 102 100 98
Crosby
120 109 104 103 102 89 85
Then, if Crosby hadn't missed so many games in '08, '11, and '13, these numbers would likely be exactly the same, if not slightly in Crosby's favor. And that's before any 'era-adjusting'.
Hawerchuk does deserve a lot of credit for his 1984-85 season, which was remarkable. 130 points, +22, 3rd in NHL scoring (Kurri being 2nd), and 2nd in Hart voting to Gretzky. Basically, it was like one of Guy Lafleur's best seasons. The Jets were second only to Edmonton in the "west" that year, and finished 5th overall. Everyone thought they were going to be the new Oilers, with a strong team that would soon be competing for the Cup... Didn't quite work out like that...
Statistically, Crosby dominates this comparison. Dale was 12th in scoring as an 18 year old which was maybe the 4th best 18 year old season since 1980 but Crosby's was clearly better. Every year after that is not close. Your subjective opinion on their respective teammates is very unconvincing,
The Panther
Registered User
Well, that's not really true. Dale's 1984-85 is very much akin to a prime-Crosby season.
Howie Hodge
Zombie Woof
I don't, perhaps incorrectly on my part, use a lot of precise statistics to back up my opinions often. Still, I can appreciate your attention to details for comparison here.
I am simply saying here Crosby is the better player, and if they played during the same era this would be obvious to all concerned.
This is not to say I like Crosby more, because in fact Ducky played for the Sabres for several seasons, so in fact I am a big fan...
(Well except of Dale's fighting ability. I mean who loses a fight to Denis Savard??
)
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Personally, I find Hawerchuk's '85 season a bit overrated.
That's not to say it wasn't an impressive season; it certainly was. However, there's nothing about it that makes me think, "Oh wow, he was basically 'generational' that season!"
Yes, he finished third in the scoring race, but Gretzky destroyed him in the scoring race, beating him by 78 points.
Yeah, we're talking about Gretzky and he's the best offensive player of all time - my point isn't that Hawerchuk should have outscored him or come close to doing so for his '85 to be considered truly remarkable; it's that the deviation between Hawerchuk and the guy who set the benchmark for greatness that season is so vast that I just don't think Hawerchuk's '85 quite approximates what should be considered a truly amazing season from a non-"generational" level talent.
The League-wide scoring rate in '85 was 7.78 goals per game on average.
In 1988, Denis Savard scored 131 points and the League-wide scoring rate that season was 7.42 goals per game on average. I don't hear as much fuss over Savard's '88 season as I do about Hawerchuk's '85 season even though it was better from an offensive stand point. Although Hawerchuk's '85 season was maybe superior to Savard's '88 season from a defensive perspective, the irony is that Savard was typically a plus player from '81-'90 while Hawerchuk was usually a minus during that same time period. They both played for teams that were generally lackluster compared to the better teams of the 80s and played in the so-called "Snorris" division.
Anyway, Yzerman's '89 season was quite a lot better than Hawerchuk's '85 season. Stevie Y scored 155 points in '89 and placed 11th in Selke voting that season. The League-wide scoring rate in 1989 was 7.48 goals per game on average. Yzerman finished only 13 points behind Gretzky (who was still in his prime and missed only two games) that season and he finished 44 points behind Lemieux, who was at his peak and healthy that season. Lemieux missed only four games.
If we're looking for a season from the mid to late 80s from one of the non-"generational" (ie Gretzky and Lemieux) forwards that can be considered a "generational-" level season, Yzerman's '89 season is definitely much closer to what we're looking for than Hawerchuk's '85 season.
Of course, Yzerman is generally regarded as having been a better player than Hawerchuk and is certainly placed higher on all-time lists; however, I think '89 was his true breakout season and when he really put himself on the map as one of hockey's greatest talents and that he put himself in the rarefied air between the elite centres and the two generational talents of the 80s that season. Hawerchuk never took that step in my opinion.
Joe Sakic's 2001 season is comparable, in my opinion, to Yzerman's 1989 season. Fedorov had his 1994 season and Forsberg was a beast in 2003.
As far as Hawerchuk goes: I think he was in the same tier as Denis Savard and Peter Stastny in a time of many elite centres. In the 90s, he would have been on the level of a peak/prime Roenick. In the 2000s/2010, he would have been roughly Tavares.
Basically, I don't think Hawerchuk ever vaulted himself to such a level that a comparison to a player like Crosby is warranted.
Hawerchuk versus Jack Eichel might be a comparison.
That's not to say it wasn't an impressive season; it certainly was. However, there's nothing about it that makes me think, "Oh wow, he was basically 'generational' that season!"
Yes, he finished third in the scoring race, but Gretzky destroyed him in the scoring race, beating him by 78 points.
Yeah, we're talking about Gretzky and he's the best offensive player of all time - my point isn't that Hawerchuk should have outscored him or come close to doing so for his '85 to be considered truly remarkable; it's that the deviation between Hawerchuk and the guy who set the benchmark for greatness that season is so vast that I just don't think Hawerchuk's '85 quite approximates what should be considered a truly amazing season from a non-"generational" level talent.
The League-wide scoring rate in '85 was 7.78 goals per game on average.
In 1988, Denis Savard scored 131 points and the League-wide scoring rate that season was 7.42 goals per game on average. I don't hear as much fuss over Savard's '88 season as I do about Hawerchuk's '85 season even though it was better from an offensive stand point. Although Hawerchuk's '85 season was maybe superior to Savard's '88 season from a defensive perspective, the irony is that Savard was typically a plus player from '81-'90 while Hawerchuk was usually a minus during that same time period. They both played for teams that were generally lackluster compared to the better teams of the 80s and played in the so-called "Snorris" division.
Anyway, Yzerman's '89 season was quite a lot better than Hawerchuk's '85 season. Stevie Y scored 155 points in '89 and placed 11th in Selke voting that season. The League-wide scoring rate in 1989 was 7.48 goals per game on average. Yzerman finished only 13 points behind Gretzky (who was still in his prime and missed only two games) that season and he finished 44 points behind Lemieux, who was at his peak and healthy that season. Lemieux missed only four games.
If we're looking for a season from the mid to late 80s from one of the non-"generational" (ie Gretzky and Lemieux) forwards that can be considered a "generational-" level season, Yzerman's '89 season is definitely much closer to what we're looking for than Hawerchuk's '85 season.
Of course, Yzerman is generally regarded as having been a better player than Hawerchuk and is certainly placed higher on all-time lists; however, I think '89 was his true breakout season and when he really put himself on the map as one of hockey's greatest talents and that he put himself in the rarefied air between the elite centres and the two generational talents of the 80s that season. Hawerchuk never took that step in my opinion.
Joe Sakic's 2001 season is comparable, in my opinion, to Yzerman's 1989 season. Fedorov had his 1994 season and Forsberg was a beast in 2003.
As far as Hawerchuk goes: I think he was in the same tier as Denis Savard and Peter Stastny in a time of many elite centres. In the 90s, he would have been on the level of a peak/prime Roenick. In the 2000s/2010, he would have been roughly Tavares.
Basically, I don't think Hawerchuk ever vaulted himself to such a level that a comparison to a player like Crosby is warranted.
Hawerchuk versus Jack Eichel might be a comparison.
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