Proposal: Yes or No: Hit the reset button on this team

[ULF_55]

He's been evaluating since he got here, less thinking and more action. Regardless he is a smart politician. He has 2 patsies to take the fall this season. He's got that part evaluated right.

Perhaps he is giving Nonis one last kick at the can, and really you can't pull the plug in December, even if it looks as bad as last year.

 

[Daisy Jane]

He's been evaluating since he got here, less thinking and more action. Regardless he is a smart politician. He has 2 patsies to take the fall this season. He's got that part evaluated right.

and by waiting. instead of having to decide between

Trotz, Oates, Bylsma, Laviolette and Desjardins (and out of that i would have wanted Desjardins)

we now have a cast headlined by

Babcock, McLellan (still rumoured to be fired if San Jose bites the biscuit) McLean (Paulrus), DeBeor, Blashill (if Bacock re-signs, rumours are abound with that one), Yeo (if Minnesota doesn't make it), Hitchcock if the Blues bite the biscuit, what's his face in Arizona when they're officially eliminated, not to mention D. Hunter (who could still be an option) - as well as firing no one ever sees coming

By 'evaluating' and not acting faster, we now have more coaching options to choose from. (and in my estimation - better, regardless of what direction we want to go in, as some are very much "win now" coaches, and some are "build a 10 year programme" coaches).

still dunno who we'd have to take over as GM unless everyone wants Hunter to just insta-take over now. (and as he's not an NHL executive, i'd rather he get the lay of the land before he goes into a plan of attack mode).

as it was stated, Nonis is still 'the guy' (whatever that means) (i'm not shifting anything off Shanahan or on to Nonis, i'm just stating what has to be stated). from what i gathered, Shanahan has the final say, but Nonis has the full authority to move out, or bring in pieces as he sees fit. and as NO One is moving big pieces anywhere, I'm not sure what we're expecting Shanahan to do, other than to fire Carlyle and Nonis now. And quite frankly, i'm fine where they are because these two are going to get us a top 10 pick, when the dust settles, and i'm okay with that as their parting gift.

 

[Pookie]

and by waiting. instead of having to decide between

Trotz, Oates, Bylsma, Laviolette and Desjardins (and out of that i would have wanted Desjardins)

we now have a cast headlined by

Babcock, McLellan (still rumoured to be fired if San Jose bites the biscuit) McLean (Paulrus), DeBeor, Blashill (if Bacock re-signs, rumours are abound with that one), Yeo (if Minnesota doesn't make it), Hitchcock if the Blues bite the biscuit, what's his face in Arizona when they're officially eliminated, not to mention D. Hunter (who could still be an option) - as well as firing no one ever sees coming

By 'evaluating' and not acting faster, we now have more coaching options to choose from. (and in my estimation - better, regardless of what direction we want to go in, as some are very much "win now" coaches, and some are "build a 10 year programme" coaches).

still dunno who we'd have to take over as GM unless everyone wants Hunter to just insta-take over now. (and as he's not an NHL executive, i'd rather he get the lay of the land before he goes into a plan of attack mode).

as it was stated, Nonis is still 'the guy' (whatever that means) (i'm not shifting anything off Shanahan or on to Nonis, i'm just stating what has to be stated). from what i gathered, Shanahan has the final say, but Nonis has the full authority to move out, or bring in pieces as he sees fit. and as NO One is moving big pieces anywhere, I'm not sure what we're expecting Shanahan to do, other than to fire Carlyle and Nonis now. And quite frankly, i'm fine where they are because these two are going to get us a top 10 pick, when the dust settles, and i'm okay with that as their parting gift.

Consider that every coach available has been fired somewhere.

Coaches don't make the difference we think they do. This team is somewhat stuck in this era of long term contracts that are hard to trade and by the fact that good free agents typically do not hit the open market in the numbers they used to.

I was never a fan of this but really, the only way to do it is to draft AND develop players they do draft. I am hoping that rather than borrowing Detroit's coach they instead read about their development program.

It's not the quick fix but it is the only fix.

 

[Purity*]

Shanahan is lying low to save his own skin when this thing falls apart.

As for this team, it's probably the least likeable Leafs team I have followed in all my years of following them. I would not shed a tear if this thing is blown up.

Seeing us get out-shot and out-played as much as this team does YET seeing them snake out wins in the fashion they do may be entertaining at the surface, but it's absolutely infuriating in the big picture.

We may have different opinions about the players on this team, but both of us can't stand the team as a whole. I'd be happy as hell to see this team get blown up starting at the trade deadline.

 

[Commander Clueless]

He's been evaluating since he got here, less thinking and more action. Regardless he is a smart politician. He has 2 patsies to take the fall this season. He's got that part evaluated right.

What sort of action do you expect him to take before the trade deadline gets close?

That's the earliest you see true action, IMO. And for good reason. It might not be until the offseason.

Shanny is giving the team a chance to sink or swim I think.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Consider that every coach available has been fired somewhere.

Coaches don't make the difference we think they do. This team is somewhat stuck in this era of long term contracts that are hard to trade and by the fact that good free agents typically do not hit the open market in the numbers they used to.

I was never a fan of this but really, the only way to do it is to draft AND develop players they do draft. I am hoping that rather than borrowing Detroit's coach they instead read about their development program.

It's not the quick fix but it is the only fix.

well the Leafs for a while have been developing quite well. we have been very very behind the eight ball on that. but for the past few years I think our youngsters are doing well.

I've been on the record of saying I don't really want a re-tread coach (Dale Hunter is sort of the exception to the rule on this one), I'd like to get a fresh coach whom we can build a 10 year programme with (and get the same for the Marlies).

What sort of action do you expect him to take before the trade deadline gets close?

That's the earliest you see true action, IMO. And for good reason. It might not be until the offseason.

Shanny is giving the team a chance to sink or swim I think.

well Shanahan flat out said it. In April he stated that a lot of teams make the mistake of just blowing out pieces instead of shoring up areas. He also said that accountability doesn't happen by just moving the bad players it's staying and making it work here. And how people show up to camp this year will determine who be Leafs long term.

i figure he is giving everyone all the rope they need to hang themselves on it. they were given the challenge and the team is incapable of stepping up to the challenge to consistently play well. and you can hang that one on Carlyle as well.

 

[Cor]

Just because it kinda bugs me. We shouldn't even consider Mike Yeo. He is terrible.

Okay.

The Leafs don't need an entire reset, we have some good pieces. Kadri, JVR, Nylander, Santorelli, Holland, Winnik, Panik, Phaneuf, Rielly, Percy, Franson (at times).

The main problem with this team is coaching. So Randy Carlyle HAS to go this summer, no matter what. He is an anchor.

Second, you need to look at trade Phil Kessel and Tyer Bozak. Will be hard to do, sure, but it's the best thing for the organization.

Then, depending on the type of deals you get for Kessel and Bozak, Phaneuf or Lupul may become expendable. Both guys we can keep, but if we replacements, we can use them to fill other holes.

Then, you find a capable veteran backup for Bernier.

and you keep going.

We are close to being on the right path. We just need to walk through the woods to get over to that path.

 

[Jacquestrapless]

Yes. We don't even need to go FULL rebuild either.

Trading Kessel and Dion would give us picks, prospects, roster players and cap space. We are mediocore with them. W/O, in the short term, we would be bad. Bad enough to warrant a high pick. Trading at the deadline would give us significant assets and I would assume suckage of two seasons before we are back on track.

 

[Tak7]

Yes. We don't even need to go FULL rebuild either.

Trading Kessel and Dion would give us picks, prospects, roster players and cap space. We are mediocore with them. W/O, in the short term, we would be bad. Bad enough to warrant a high pick. Trading at the deadline would give us significant assets and I would assume suckage of two seasons before we are back on track.

Kessel, maybe.

Dion, no chance.

And if you want this team to be bad, you trade the 2 goaltenders first and foremost.

 

[hullsy47]

Yes. We don't even need to go FULL rebuild either.

Trading Kessel and Dion would give us picks, prospects, roster players and cap space. We are mediocore with them. W/O, in the short term, we would be bad. Bad enough to warrant a high pick. Trading at the deadline would give us significant assets and I would assume suckage of two seasons before we are back on track.

i think mark hunter is the next GM ....no doubt here ,maybe even before the deadline ,this team is still life or death at a wildcard berth and again those homewins that bernier and the time reimer stood on their heads wed be **** up already

 

[Daisy Jane]

Kessel, maybe.

Dion, no chance.

And if you want this team to be bad, you trade the 2 goaltenders first and foremost.

that's pretty much it, eh?
if not for the goaltending, we'd be Edmonton bad, but with more consistent firepower.

 

[Epictetus]

Absolutely.

With a new management team in place, hopefully new coaching, and a new way of thinking, it's time for a new outlook on this franchise.

With the amount of spending on players, the history and market of Toronto, the ticket prices, and the fanbase, this team should aim to be one of the best organizations in the league -- even all of sports.

Not reseting this team is basically admitting that you are fine with accepting mediocrity. And that you are also fine with pocketing millions and millions for an average product.

 

[William Hylander]

Yes, and start it by lighting a firecracker up Nonis' ass.

 

[Ratboy]

Trade Reimer. HE IS THE SOLE REASON WE ARE NO GOOD.

 

[Daisy Jane]

this is how I see the team.

you have a hank of yarn.
the ideal way to knit with it is to spin it into a ball. no tangles.
the leafs is someone being too impatient to cut all the dead ties, put it on the swift, get out the ball winder, and spin it, instead they decide to knit from the hank - this creating a huge knot of tangles. no matter where you pull, you can't get free.

people want to blame coaching (as they should)
people want to blame goaltending (reimer specifically, as they should)
people want to blame the defense (as they should)
people want to blame the offense (as they should)
people want to blame the management (as they should)

interactif and others are all saying Shanahan doesn't have experience, or we all know/see etc. blah blah blah other people would have made changes. Okay. this is very fair, and i'll give you that - it's a fair criticism.

but because this team is so freaking demented, I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to take the time to see if it could 'potentially' be fixed. Remember, one of the massive problems was lack of secondary scoring. (and if we had had that, even with the shots against down the stretch, we MAY not have crashed so badly). So we fix that, and it helps keep us afloat.

defense though is just as poorus and that isn't fixed.
offense is LAZY and that hasn't been fixed, (and as much as I love Winnie and Santa and want to keep them, them be playing for a contract, so i don't know how much i'd love them if they had a 2-3 year contract a piece).

as i've constantly stated - I am quite fine of this being a throw away year (which is what i gathered Shanahan to make it as. if the team did crappy - we get a great pick and everyone gets bounced. if the team does well, well lookie here the problem was secondary scoring, and we shored up our problems. horrah).

its looking like it's the 1st. I'd rather NOT just hire the first 'he'll do" coach (because that's how we got stuck with Burke - Wilson -Randy). I want the best coach period.

 

[Stephen]

this is how I see the team.

you have a hank of yarn.
the ideal way to knit with it is to spin it into a ball. no tangles.
the leafs is someone being too impatient to cut all the dead ties, put it on the swift, get out the ball winder, and spin it, this creating a huge knot of tangles. no matter where you pull, you can't get free.

people want to blame coaching (as they should)
people want to blame goaltending (reimer specifically, as they should)
people want to blame the defense (as they should)
people want to blame the offense (as they should)
people want to blame the management (as they should)

interactif and others are all saying Shanahan doesn't have experience, or we all know/see etc. blah blah blah other people would have made changes. Okay. this is very fair, and i'll give you that - it's a fair criticism.

but because this team is so freaking demented, I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to take the time to see if it could 'potentially' be fixed. Remember, one of the massive problems was lack of secondary scoring. (and if we had had that, even with the shots against down the stretch, we MAY not have crashed so badly). So we fix that, and it helps keep us afloat.

defense though is just as poorus and that isn't fixed.
offense is LAZY and that hasn't been fixed, (and as much as I love Winnie and Santa and want to keep them, them be playing for a contract, so i don't know how much i'd love them if they had a 2-3 year contract a piece).

as i've constantly stated - I am quite fine of this being a throw away year (which is what i gathered Shanahan to make it as. if the team did crappy - we get a great pick and everyone gets bounced. if the team does well, well lookie here the problem was secondary scoring, and we shored up our problems. horrah).

its looking like it's the 1st. I'd rather NOT just hire the first 'he'll do" coach (because that's how we got stuck with Burke - Wilson -Randy). I want the best coach period.

It's true. This is the time to be patient figuring out the next move, but the general game plan should be to dynamite this whole core.

What they should be patient with is how to go about getting the best return, and building up as many assets as possible entering the draft and correcting the cap structure.

 

[Cor]

Are you kidding? You think these guys match up to Chicago or LA's management teams in NHL contacts and experience?

I would have more confidence in Burke and Nonis and their contacts than these OHL guys.

Hunter is a scout, pro/amateur, this is something he loves doing. Let him do his job.

As for Dubas, the wonder kid moniker is getting old fast. He's just a guy with a stats background that ran the Greyhounds for 2 years, he admitted he has a lot to learn,

CONTACTS AND EXPERIENCE MEAN ****.

Burke and Nonis both have plenty of that and they ruined us.


Holy ****

 

[Daisy Jane]

CONTACTS AND EXPERIENCE MEAN ****.

Burke and Nonis both have plenty of that and they ruined us.


Holy ****

bingo.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

bingo.

You can blame Burke for this core, but the problems were worse before he got here. Far worse. Our best prospect was Tlusty and Jason Blake was our marquee player. So while the results have not been there, he did leave this team far better off than when he inherited it. There is no question about this.

 

[ULF_55]

You can blame Burke for this core, but the problems were worse before he got here. Far worse. Our best prospect was Tlusty and Jason Blake was our marquee player. So while the results have not been there, he did leave this team far better off than when he inherited it. There is no question about this.

JFj told management a rebuild was needed.

Management said no.

Burke said I don't need to rebuild, “I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."

I'm sure there are people still defending Burke here. For some Leafs management is beyond reproach, and yet that defies all logic and reasoned thought.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

JFj told management a rebuild was needed.

Management said no.

Burke said I don't need to rebuild, “I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."

I'm sure there are people still defending Burke here. For some Leafs management is beyond reproach, and yet that defies all logic and reasoned thought.

Burke started an accelerated rebuild with the Kessel trade, this sealed the fate of this franchise on a true rebuild. When that didn't work along with some failed FA signings.

What he did in trading cap space for prospects and picks starting turning this franchise around.

He wasn't perfect, but he did leave this franchise with something in the cupboard from bare cupboards.

Our best prospect went from Tlusty to Rielly. and love him or hate him our best player from Blake to Kessel.

This team was better for Nonis, than JFJ to when Burke took over. A mixed bag, but some things he did good for this organization.

 

[Stephen]

Let's see where this team can go with the haul that Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak, Franson, Reimer, Gardiner, Robidas, Winnik can get us.

 

[Durkin67]

Let's see where this team can go with the haul that Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak, Franson, Reimer, Gardiner, Robidas, Winnik can get us.

Id like to see them build around Phaneuf, Franson, Rielly, Bernier, JvR , Komarov, Holland and Winnick. Id LOVE to see them trade for Ryan O Reilly.

 

[Standardly]

Burke started an accelerated rebuild with the Kessel trade, this sealed the fate of this franchise on a true rebuild. When that didn't work along with some failed FA signings.

What he did in trading cap space for prospects and picks starting turning this franchise around.

He wasn't perfect, but he did leave this franchise with something in the cupboard from bare cupboards.

Our best prospect went from Tlusty to Rielly. and love him or hate him our best player from Blake to Kessel.

This team was better for Nonis, than JFJ to when Burke took over. A mixed bag, but some things he did good for this organization.

guys like you are so weird. I was laying down but had to get up to reply. The best prospect went from Tlusty to Rielly because Burke's teams ***ing sucked.....and when you suck, you draft high. Give me a break - it's like leaf fans are simpletons. You know what, the prospects would have been even better with Seguin and Hamilton because not only did burke's team suck, they sucked really really bad.


Burke shouldn't get any credit. He miscalculated the team by trading picks for a fat winger and the team still finished in the basement and that winger hasn't rounded out his game enough to get them out of that basement.


When JFJ took over, he took over after the Quinn years. The leafs were winning during the quinn era....they were also trading picks away during the Quinn. JFJ was bad, but he also had absolutely zeron help in the youth/drafting department from Quinn and co during the pre-salary cap days.


Burke added Kessel by essentially trading Seguin and Hamilton. Contrary to his assumption, with the addition of Kessel, his team still sucked. He drafted Kadri (because his team sucked). He drafted Rielly (because his team still sucked). That's what happens when you suck - you draft high....provided that you're not a bonehead that trades the picks away.

Also, Leafs drafted Schenn just before burke got here (yup, because the leafs sucked). That should have been an indication to burke where the team was at.

 

[ironhorse384]

Id like to see them build around Phaneuf, Franson, Rielly, Bernier, JvR , Komarov, Holland and Winnick. Id LOVE to see them trade for Ryan O Reilly.

Who do you give up to get O Reilly? Isn't he making around 6.5? So where do you find room for him under the cap?

edit: 5.8 for this season , 6.2 for next