Wow, NHL not going to the Olympics!!!

[MarkStone]

2. Amateur status has always been a sham that prevented people who didn't have the means independent of sport to stay in sport. Basically the elite class creating a barrier to prevent the peasants from competing against them.

This. This is the absolute truth.

 

[Zorf]

Can I ask a jerky question? It's been bugging me for a while and I can't come up with an answer.

Here it is:

People in support of NHL players going to the Olympics always talk about how it grows the game internationally and promotes hockey in non-traditional markets.
Is there any actual proof of that?

To me that seems like something that sounds like it makes sense but probably doesn't in real life. I have a feeling that hockey is about as popular as it ever will be. I know the NHL is keen to expand visibility in China, but for hockey to take off in a non-traditional market it takes a lot more than some kids watching the Olympics and wanting to play. It takes rinks. It takes equipment. It takes coaching, and league organization, and refs, and training, and Zambonis. All of this stuff costs a lot of money.


I just think this argument is a little bit of BS.

Thoughts?

 

[NyQuil]

Can I ask a jerky question? It's been bugging me for a while and I can't come up with an answer.

Here it is:

People in support of NHL players going to the Olympics always talk about how it grows the game internationally and promotes hockey in non-traditional markets.
Is there any actual proof of that?

To me that seems like something that sounds like it makes sense but probably doesn't in real life. I have a feeling that hockey is about as popular as it ever will be. I know the NHL is keen to expand visibility in China, but for hockey to take off in a non-traditional market it takes a lot more than some kids watching the Olympics and wanting to play. It takes rinks. It takes equipment. It takes coaching, and league organization, and refs, and training, and Zambonis. All of this stuff costs a lot of money.

I just think this argument is a little bit of BS.

Thoughts?

I think the timelines involved are much longer than what the the NHL employs when trying to evaluate impact.

You're looking at 15-20 year timeframes, not 5 years.

As someone who grew up in Germany, and played on an outdoor rink for HSV in Hamburg, where the team was half comprised of Scandanavians and Canadians, I've seen first-hand how a sport can grow within a lifetime. It's a completely different situation there now.

The Germans watched the World Championships religiously, even when they weren't very good. International sport matters a lot to most countries. Just not the United States.

 

[Larionov]

People should save some salt for the IOC. If the IOC really wanted NHLers there, they would have offered to make the NHL an official partner, allowing them use of the ring logo, the ability to play video clips on their web site, etc. As it stands, the NHL gets absolutely nothing out of shutting down for three weeks and sending their best players to the Olympics so that the IOC and all of their sponsors can benefit. I didn't think that the NHL's demands were that unreasonable, and the fact that the IOC turned them down flat means that NHL participation just isn't that important to them. The IOC figures that ratings and attendance will barely flicker with this decision, and they're probably right...

 

[Zorf]

I think the timelines involved are much longer than what the the NHL employs when trying to evaluate impact.

You're looking at 15-20 year timeframes, not 5 years.

As someone who grew up in Germany, and played on an outdoor rink for HSV in Hamburg, where the team was half comprised of Scandanavians and Canadians, I've seen first-hand how a sport can grow within a lifetime. It's a completely different situation there now.

The Germans watched the World Championships religiously, even when they weren't very good. International sport matters a lot to most countries. Just not the United States.

Well that's a cool first-hand account.



next question. With fans following international sport so much, and I think this is true across the globe, do you think not having NHL players there will diminish the interest in the Olympic hockey tournament? If there is good hockey played at the Olympics, I think that would generate interest in the sport just as much as if there were NHL players there.

I mean, arguably one of the greatest Olympic hockey moments ever was the 1980 USA team. That wasn't a bunch of NHL superstars, and I'm sure that moment alone inspired TONS of kids to play hockey.

 

[Zorf]

People should save some salt for the IOC. If the IOC really wanted NHLers there, they would have offered to make the NHL an official partner, allowing them use of the ring logo, the ability to play video clips on their web site, etc. As it stands, the NHL gets absolutely nothing out of shutting down for three weeks and sending their best players to the Olympics so that the IOC and all of their sponsors can benefit. I didn't think that the NHL's demands were that unreasonable, and the fact that the IOC turned them down flat means that NHL participation just isn't that important to them. The IOC figures that ratings and attendance will barely flicker with this decision, and they're probably right...

the IOC is notoriously mental about who gets to use the Olympic rings logo. I'm sure it's only the corporate sponsors who shell out millions and millions of dollars and even then, if I am not mistaken, they are only allowed to use the rings logo while the Olympics are happening.

 

[SPF6ty9]

This sucks. It's a shame that both the NHL and IOC (I fault both organizations) couldn't figure this out for the benefit of the fans and players. Everyone wants to see this (well apparently not everyone, but lets say 98%). It's just too bad the 1% couldn't mutually grease each others pockets enough to make it happen.

On one hand, I hope a lot of the players do head over there and play because I want to see true best on best with everything on the line. On the other hand, it's going to be a big mess for the NHL if that happens. Sometimes deals that don't involve money directly can end up costing both parties a lot down the line and I think this will be one of those.

 

[Larionov]

the IOC is notoriously mental about who gets to use the Olympic rings logo. I'm sure it's only the corporate sponsors who shell out millions and millions of dollars and even then, if I am not mistaken, they are only allowed to use the rings logo while the Olympics are happening.

Yes, you're right - I do recall stories where they were over the top protective of their logo and branding. My God, they even went after a restaurant in Vancouver called "Olympic pizza" that had been there for 30 odd years before the Games ever showed up. (They eventually backed off.) It may well be that Bettman asked for that knowing that he'd never get it, thus having a handy excuse for bailing out like his bosses wanted him to anyway...

 

[TedLundy]

I mean, arguably one of the greatest Olympic hockey moments ever was the 1980 USA team. That wasn't a bunch of NHL superstars, and I'm sure that moment alone inspired TONS of kids to play hockey.

That is true, but Team USA in 1980 played against a team who was filled with pros and had some of the best players in the world, that's why that moment is huge.

 

[Larionov]

This sucks. It's a shame that both the NHL and IOC (I fault both organizations) couldn't figure this out for the benefit of the fans and players. Everyone wants to see this (well apparently not everyone, but lets say 98%). It's just too bad the 1% couldn't mutually grease each others pockets enough to make it happen.

On one hand, I hope a lot of the players do head over there and play because I want to see true best on best with everything on the line. On the other hand, it's going to be a big mess for the NHL if that happens. Sometimes deals that don't involve money directly can end up costing both parties a lot down the line and I think this will be one of those.

I don't think that very many players will ultimately make the trip. In fact, I predict that almost none do.

First off, most of the national federations (Hockey Canada, USA Hockey, etc.) do very nicely off development money from the NHL every time a player gets drafted. None of them want to see an end to that gravy train, so they'll play nice when the NHL tells them not to put NHL players on their national team.

The only renegade will be (surprise!) the Russians. Now, Ovi might go over because he is nuts, and is a veteran with lots of money in the bank. If you're a younger Russian player, though, looking down the barrel of losing 10% of your pay for the year and risking injury, are you going? Your agent will be telling you not to - bet on that. The injury thing is not an abstract either - just ask Tavares or Barkov, both of whom got hurt at the last Olympics. If you come home hurt, you won't get paid until you're healthy again.

Bottom line is that I expect VERY few NHLers to be there outside of Ovi and maybe a couple of other stray Russians...

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Best on best hockey is best on best hockey. Doesn't mKe a lick of difference to me if its the Olympics or the world cup. Provided the world cup doesn't go with all the gimmicks of the latest installment.

Hell everything being equal, I'd prefer nhl rules. Games decided by continuous overtime over shootouts

 

[NyQuil]

Well that's a cool first-hand account.

next question. With fans following international sport so much, and I think this is true across the globe, do you think not having NHL players there will diminish the interest in the Olympic hockey tournament? If there is good hockey played at the Olympics, I think that would generate interest in the sport just as much as if there were NHL players there.

I mean, arguably one of the greatest Olympic hockey moments ever was the 1980 USA team. That wasn't a bunch of NHL superstars, and I'm sure that moment alone inspired TONS of kids to play hockey.

The reason why the 1980 USA team was such a great hockey moment is that they beat the best team on the planet.

If the US amateurs had beaten a bunch of Russian "amateurs" instead of their top guys, it would barely be a footnote in hockey history.

Personally, I think missing the players will have an impact. Olympic coverage is pretty in-depth and ubiquitous around the world and there will be discussion about the hockey by the media and hired experts.

It's the crown jewel of team sports at the event.

For those two weeks, you'd better believe that names like Ovechkin and Crosby are being discussed globally.

 

[NyQuil]

Best on best hockey is best on best hockey. Doesn't mKe a lick of difference to me if its the Olympics or the world cup. Provided the world cup doesn't go with all the gimmicks of the latest installment.

Hell everything being equal, I'd prefer nhl rules. Games decided by continuous overtime over shootouts

Well, they blew it, which is part of the frustration.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

1. It won't be amateurs. It'll be Spengler Cup teams with a NCAA and World Jrs players added in for USA and Canada. The other teams will be domestic pro league teams, SHL, KHL, etc. They all have international breaks for the Olympics.

2. Amateur status has always been a sham that prevented people who didn't have the means independent of sport to stay in sport. Basically the elite class creating a barrier to prevent the peasants from competing against them.

Can you explain in further detail of what you mean in point #2? The amateur class is the elite class? Sorry just a bit confused, not disagreeing.

Also, I mean the entire olympics are a bit of a sham nowadays it's why no one actually wants to spend the $ to host them anymore. Just an absolute waste of money and resources.

 

[NyQuil]

Can you explain in further detail of what you mean in point #2? The amateur class is the elite class? Sorry just a bit confused, not disagreeing.

Well, it's this idea that people who were independently wealthy called themselves "amateur" because only gentlemen could afford to play sports for a living without an income derived from it.

It's probably most prominent in golf.

Historically the distinction between amateur and professional golfers had much to do with social class. In 18th and 19th century Britain, golf was played by the rich for pleasure. The early professionals were working class men who made a living from the game in a variety of ways: caddying, greenkeeping, clubmaking, and playing challenge matches. When golf arrived in America at the end of the 19th century it was an elite sport there too. Early American golf clubs imported their professionals from Britain. It was not possible to make a living solely from playing tournament golf until some way into the 20th century (Walter Hagen is sometimes considered to have been the first man to have done so).

 

[SPF6ty9]

I don't think that very many players will ultimately make the trip. In fact, I predict that almost none do.

First off, most of the national federations (Hockey Canada, USA Hockey, etc.) do very nicely off development money from the NHL every time a player gets drafted. None of them want to see an end to that gravy train, so they'll play nice when the NHL tells them not to put NHL players on their national team.

The only renegade will be (surprise!) the Russians. Now, Ovi might go over because he is nuts, and is a veteran with lots of money in the bank. If you're a younger Russian player, though, looking down the barrel of losing 10% of your pay for the year and risking injury, are you going? Your agent will be telling you not to - bet on that. The injury thing is not an abstract either - just ask Tavares or Barkov, both of whom got hurt at the last Olympics. If you come home hurt, you won't get paid until you're healthy again.

Bottom line is that I expect VERY few NHLers to be there outside of Ovi and maybe a couple of other stray Russians...

Would it be the same for Sweden? I mean for us the big question would of course be Karlsson and he has had some vocal moments in favor of the Olympics and against the NHL's decision. He, like Ovechkin, has a position where he really has a lot of power / pull to be able to make a decision on this matter and considering the depth Canada has he may be the player that would benefit a team most over replacement in the entire tourny.

It will be interesting also if an older player (say Zetterberg for example) "retires" from the NHL in order to get another shot at the Olympics. I mean this is all speculation at this point, but a gold medal means a lot to these guys so we'll see how far the lengths people take to chase one.

 

[NyQuil]

Would it be the same for Sweden? I mean for us the big question would of course be Karlsson and he has had some vocal moments in favor of the Olympics and against the NHL's decision. He, like Ovechkin, has a position where he really has a lot of power / pull to be able to make a decision on this matter and considering the depth Canada has he may be the player that would benefit a team most over replacement in the entire tourny.

It will be interesting also if an older player (say Zetterberg for example) "retires" from the NHL in order to get another shot at the Olympics. I mean this is all speculation at this point, but a gold medal means a lot to these guys so we'll see how far the lengths people take to chase one.

Russia is the most obvious one because they haven't won one.

Sweden did win a Gold back in 2006 and Henrik was on the team.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Well, they blew it, which is part of the frustration.

Agreed.

But hopefully they just reset to the traditional way next time around. Of course who knows if SEL and KHL players will give enough of a **** to come.

 

[Lenny the Lynx]

Well, it's this idea that people who were independently wealthy called themselves "amateur" because only gentlemen could afford to play sports for a living without an income derived from it.

It's probably most prominent in golf.

The amateur/professional split in sports seems like something that was relevant 100 years ago. I don't really see how it applies to the sport of hockey in 2017+.

I have one idea for the tournament if the NHL isn't participating - make it like a national team alumni tournament where retired guys play.

Also on this news in general - its disappointing but not surprising from the NHL. They love to negotiate using the nuclear option, which consistently blows up in their face. Look at how all the other major sports leagues have just quietly renewed CBAs recently, the NHL would rather cost itself, the players, the owners millions of dollars every time. They always take the fans for granted, which I honestly believe hurts them in the long run financially but is hard to quantify. /rant

 

[NyQuil]

The amateur/professional split in sports seems like something that was relevant 100 years ago. I don't really see how it applies to the sport of hockey in 2017+.

Well, it was relevant in hockey when the Soviets were putting their "amateur" teams into Olympic and WHC competition in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s.

This idea that the Olympics were about the purity of sport because of the amateur status of the athletes was a pretty big joke.

But yes, the class-based argument is pretty much eroded away.

Also on this news in general - its disappointing but not surprising from the NHL. They love to negotiate using the nuclear option, which consistently blows up in their face. Look at how all the other major sports leagues have just quietly renewed CBAs recently, the NHL would rather cost itself, the players, the owners millions of dollars every time. They always take the fans for granted, which I honestly believe hurts them in the long run financially but is hard to quantify. /rant

Well, you can blame the fans for that.

Every time there's a lockout we end up missing the sport and come back stronger than ever.

 

[Larionov]

IIRC, the Swedish Ice Hockey Federation has a transfer agreement with the NHL, and thus benefits from NHL development money. Therefore, they will be held hostage, errrr, I mean will want to cooperate with their NHL partners. ;-)

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I don't really care either way but I'd be down with a league wide boycott of the every team's home opener next season. A protest from the fans in solidarity with the players to tell the owners to **** off.

Will miss the best on best but I would be very interested in the team's that Canada and the US put into the tournament.

From the owners perspective though, I can see why you wouldn't want your players in Korea with the current geopolitical climate. Bad bad things could be happening there in the very near future.

 

[Engineer]

It's an anti-player, anti-fan decision that only benefits the owners.

Don't tell me as an 8 year old kid you didn't dream of winning the Stanley Cup and representing your country in the world Juniors and Olympics playing hockey, because I won't believe you.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

It's an anti-player, anti-fan decision that only benefits the owners.

Don't tell me as an 8 year old kid you didn't dream of winning the Stanley Cup and representing your country in the world Juniors and Olympics playing hockey, because I won't believe you.

Cup yes, playing olympic hockey? Get prepared to not believe me. I really have a horrible sense of pride I guess, but I rooted for Canada to beat the USA in Vancouver as I wanted to see Canadians get to see their team win gold on home ice, and otherwise I usually just root for the underdog country to win. Sometimes that's the USA, sometimes it's someone different.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Cup yes, playing olympic hockey? Get prepared to not believe me. I really have a horrible sense of pride I guess, but I rooted for Canada to beat the USA in Vancouver as I wanted to see Canadians get to see their team win gold on home ice, and otherwise I usually just root for the underdog country to win. Sometimes that's the USA, sometimes it's someone different.

This is probably different by region/country. In Canada winning the Cup is everything and the World Junior is huge too, whereas the WJC probably means little to nothing almost everywhere else and the Olympics would be way bigger for most Europeans and Russians than a Stanley Cup. Different backgrounds.