Worst GM in the league #2

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Good move by Dubas to move out Kap, and a good move by Rutherford to get Kap. I don’t know if Benning made any good moves this off season.

Loved Nate Schmidt move.

 

[Fatass]

Loved Nate Schmidt move.

Maybe. I’m wait and see on this player. He could be a guy who benefited from situation. That’s a big money and term contract. Expecting him to be good though. Still losing Marky, Tofu, and Tanev because of terrible contracts to old crappy guys puts Benning way past Dubas or Rutherford. IMO it’s not even close really.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It’s pretty easily Guerin or Rutherford for me. I was on to Rutherford being overrated and bad as soon as he started in Pittsburgh (back when people were high on him and Pittsburgh fans liked to argue he was why they won a Cup instead of a roster rich with elite talent.

I forgot about Rutherford before voting, so I’d probably change it to him but Guerin has been pretty bad in a very short amount of time thus far.

Rutherford's moves helped the Pens turn from a floundering team into one with the right final pieces to put them over the top.

No one gives him ALL the credit because clearly he already had some really good building blocks in place, but his moves definitely played a big part in getting them back on track. He brought in Kessel, the single biggest impact move that put the Pens back on the track to success. He targeted good skaters that complimented the fast style of play that Sullivan wanted to play. Pens don't win the Cup without those moves.

 

[Pyrophorus]

1 round in 1 year vs zero rounds in 17 years is not a strong comeback on your part.

Seems like they still won nothing.

 

[Volica]

Not long enough to determine his drafting abilities, but long enough to name him 2nd worsr GM and say he should be fired.

Personally don’t view him as bottom two, I sort of have him in the bottom 10.
If the Leafs regress further, then yeah, there should be some questions. That said, I really haven’t loved anything he’s done as a GM.

I didn’t think Leafs needed Tavares. I thought Mathews/Kadri would still be among the top 1/3 of the league. I honestly don’t think the difference in play is worth the difference in salary those two traded.

It’s a snowball effect where he then has to pay everyone to that JT threshold rather than setting his market with his homegrown stars like every cup winning team has done since the cap was understood properly.

Dumping all grit then having to knee jerk it back, dumping all young depth homegrown guys and trying to fix it with a 2013 all-star team because the aforementioned cap snowball effect... mix that in with having to move firsts for cap reasons... that horrendously botched Kadri deal... A deep run would make everyone forget everything, but I don’t see this team as close to one that’ll take a team like Tampa deep.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Rutherford's moves helped the Pens turn from a floundering team into one with the right final pieces to put them over the top.

No one gives him ALL the credit because clearly he already had some really good building blocks in place, but his moves definitely played a big part in getting them back on track. He brought in Kessel, the single biggest impact move that put the Pens back on the track to success. He targeted good skaters that complimented the fast style of play that Sullivan wanted to play. Pens don't win the Cup without those moves.

Much like Chiarelli with the Bruins there appears to be two eras of his tenure. The spectacular and the horrible.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Personally don’t view him as bottom two, I sort of have him in the bottom 10.
If the Leafs regress further, then yeah, there should be some questions. That said, I really haven’t loved anything he’s done as a GM.

I didn’t think Leafs needed Tavares. I thought Mathews/Kadri would still be among the top 1/3 of the league. I honestly don’t think the difference in play is worth the difference in salary those two traded.

It’s a snowball effect where he then has to pay everyone to that JT threshold rather than setting his market with his homegrown stars like every cup winning team has done since the cap was understood properly.

Dumping all grit then having to knee jerk it back, dumping all young depth homegrown guys and trying to fix it with a 2013 all-star team because the aforementioned cap snowball effect... mix that in with having to move firsts for cap reasons... that horrendously botched Kadri deal... A deep run would make everyone forget everything, but I don’t see this team as close to one that’ll take a team like Tampa deep.

Eh, he may have botched the Kadri deal(I have a strong feeling Keffoot plays great this year though), but just aboiut every other trade he's doen looks very good (Muzzin, Hyman, Kapanen, Sandin, ETC). No GM is perfect, that includes on cup winning teams.

You sign a Tavares 10 out of 10 times. Guys like him are never available. He was a franchise C in his prime.

And moving a first occurred beacuse of Lou's Marleau deal. That was a worst contract by far than any one Dubas has signed. YOu can't blame him for that. HIs Kapanen deal looks fantastic to get a first back FYI.
And he didn't really move out aby "Grit". I guess you can call Kadri "Gritty", everyone else made sense. Leo Komortov is a ridiculous deal you never match. You can't give him 4 years @ 3 million per. Martin asked out beacuse Babcock wouldn't play him.

 

[Volica]

Eh, he may have botched the Kadri deal(I have a strong feeling Keffoot plays great this year though), but just aboiut every other trade he's doen looks very good (Muzzin, Hyman, Kapanen, Sandin, ETC). No GM is perfect, that includes on cup winning teams.

You sign a Tavares 10 out of 10 times. Guys like him are never available. He was a franchise C in his prime.

And moving a first occurred beacuse of Lou's Marleau deal. That was a worst contract by far than any one Dubas has signed. YOu can't blame him for that. HIs Kapanen deal looks fantastic to get a first back FYI.
And he didn't really move out aby "Grit". I guess you can call Kadri "Gritty", everyone else made sense. Leo Komortov is a ridiculous deal you never match. You can't give him 4 years @ 3 million per. Martin asked out beacuse Babcock wouldn't play him.

I agree, you sign Tavares 10/10 times, but his snowball effect is still hurting the Leafs cap. Leafs weren't in a position to need his services quite yet.

Kerfoot will never be much more than 25-30 point guy in Toronto, because he'll never play on the first PP where the majority of his points came from in Colorado. It's just not happening with the depth Toronto has on the top end.

I did like the Muzzin deal for Toronto.
Zach Hyman was in 2015, that's not a Dubas trade.
Kapanen, wasn't brought in under Dubas, and his trade out of town (to me) is super questionable, he was a good depth piece, and the pieces received could amount to nothing.
Sandin was a draft pick swap, it's not a trade you can actually measure

Again, snowball in terms of Marleau. This happened because of Tavares, then having to pay his roster the same way. Lou likely had other ideas for Toronto in the offseason; pointing and saying "that's Lou's fault". Hell, in Toronto Marleau averaged 21 goals and 20 assists, that's solid production from a middle 6 guy.

Leafs became likely the softest team in the league under Dubas, and that's not really even debatable all that much; as someone who watched a boatload of those Canuck big teams, this team is likely softer. Kadri along with Muzzin and Hyman were the last of the meat-and-potato guys that Toronto had... He moved one out for players that are pretty one-dimensional, and there were rumours of Hyman out of town too last year.

I just haven't loved what he's done. I'm sure there's a bunch of Leafs fans that love the water the guy walks on, but to me, he's made his team somehow worse from the moment he took it over to today, and somehow added Tavares

 

[Fatass]

I agree, you sign Tavares 10/10 times, but his snowball effect is still hurting the Leafs cap. Leafs weren't in a position to need his services quite yet.

Kerfoot will never be much more than 25-30 point guy in Toronto, because he'll never play on the first PP where the majority of his points came from in Colorado. It's just not happening with the depth Toronto has on the top end.

I did like the Muzzin deal for Toronto.
Zach Hyman was in 2015, that's not a Dubas trade.
Kapanen, wasn't brought in under Dubas, and his trade out of town (to me) is super questionable, he was a good depth piece, and the pieces received could amount to nothing.
Sandin was a draft pick swap, it's not a trade you can actually measure

Again, snowball in terms of Marleau. This happened because of Tavares, then having to pay his roster the same way. Lou likely had other ideas for Toronto in the offseason; pointing and saying "that's Lou's fault". Hell, in Toronto Marleau averaged 21 goals and 20 assists, that's solid production from a middle 6 guy.

Leafs became likely the softest team in the league under Dubas, and that's not really even debatable all that much; as someone who watched a boatload of those Canuck big teams, this team is likely softer. Kadri along with Muzzin and Hyman were the last of the meat-and-potato guys that Toronto had... He moved one out for players that are pretty one-dimensional, and there were rumours of Hyman out of town too last year.

I just haven't loved what he's done. I'm sure there's a bunch of Leafs fans that love the water the guy walks on, but to me, he's made his team somehow worse from the moment he took it over to today, and somehow added Tavares

If signing JT shouldn’t the next move have been to move Matthews though? Imagine the haul he would have returned. JT and Kadri make for an excellent 1/2.
I still say Benning is the worst GM, and it’s by a lot. But Dubas made mistakes that hurt his team too. His just weren’t as bad as what Benning’s done.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I agree, you sign Tavares 10/10 times, but his snowball effect is still hurting the Leafs cap. Leafs weren't in a position to need his services quite yet.

Kerfoot will never be much more than 25-30 point guy in Toronto, because he'll never play on the first PP where the majority of his points came from in Colorado. It's just not happening with the depth Toronto has on the top end.

I did like the Muzzin deal for Toronto.
Zach Hyman was in 2015, that's not a Dubas trade.
Kapanen, wasn't brought in under Dubas, and his trade out of town (to me) is super questionable, he was a good depth piece, and the pieces received could amount to nothing.
Sandin was a draft pick swap, it's not a trade you can actually measure

Again, snowball in terms of Marleau. This happened because of Tavares, then having to pay his roster the same way. Lou likely had other ideas for Toronto in the offseason; pointing and saying "that's Lou's fault". Hell, in Toronto Marleau averaged 21 goals and 20 assists, that's solid production from a middle 6 guy.

Leafs became likely the softest team in the league under Dubas, and that's not really even debatable all that much; as someone who watched a boatload of those Canuck big teams, this team is likely softer. Kadri along with Muzzin and Hyman were the last of the meat-and-potato guys that Toronto had... He moved one out for players that are pretty one-dimensional, and there were rumours of Hyman out of town too last year.

I just haven't loved what he's done. I'm sure there's a bunch of Leafs fans that love the water the guy walks on, but to me, he's made his team somehow worse from the moment he took it over to today, and somehow added Tavares

Dubas was acting GM in 2015'. He made the Hyman and Kessel deals. Dubus joined the Leafs in 2014 when Lou was still in New Jersey.
The point about the Kapanen trade is that is fantastic value back for a 3rd liner and Amirov looks like a stud prospect. Nate Svhmidt was traded for a 3rd rounder to show you how much Dubas got in that trade.
And yes, Sandin is a draft trade you can judge. He moved down only 4 spots and ended up with SAndin and SDA. It's looking fantastic.

Marleau was by far the Leafs worst contract. That should not have been signed. That contract is the issue not Tavares. You don't sign a 38 year-old for 3 years at 6.25 per. The Zaitsev deal was also terrible. That's 10.8 for those 2. But a #1 C at 11 is the issue you say? Lou signed both.

And where did you hear Hyman wants to leave his hometown team for? He grew up a Leaf fan and wanted to join the team badly. I've never heard that before. The guy has it made. He's played his whole career with Matthews and Tavares.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

If signing JT shouldn’t the next move have been to move Matthews though? Imagine the haul he would have returned. JT and Kadri make for an excellent 1/2.
I still say Benning is the worst GM, and it’s by a lot. But Dubas made mistakes that hurt his team too. His just weren’t as bad as what Benning’s done.

What? You are not trading a stud 21 year-old centre LOL. The entire point was to have 2 #1 Cs, not sign Tavares then trade Matthews.

What team trades a Mathews type centre at 21? No one. That would be laughable.

 

[Fatass]

What? You are not trading a stud 21 year-old centre LOL. The entire point was to have 2 #1 Cs, not sign Tavares then trade Matthews.

What team trades a Mathews type centre at 21? No one. That would be laughable.

I was commenting on the Dubas created cap problem. Signing JT created a cap issue, so the team couldn’t be properly balanced between stars and support players. What Cup team has 34 million in three players?

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I was commenting on the Dubas created cap problem. Signing JT created a cap issue, so the team couldn’t be properly balanced between stars and support players. What Cup team has 34 million in three players?

Lou created cap issues. You know how Marner is supposedly sucha horrible contract? Marleau and Zaistsev made the same (10.8 in cap)
Pay your stars. Don't overpay supporting talent.
And why is Toronto having cap issues such a big deal? What team doesn't? Toronto should not have any cap space with their talent level.

I look at the Leafs lineup and se a very balanced team. That feels like an argument that no longer fits. TRavis Dermott now needs to fight for a role on the D.

And BTW, why do you only judge a team by 3 players? I'm confused. Vancouver is considered a future contender and they are wasting like 30 million on crappy and retired players. Jay Beagle, Brandon Sutter and Roberto Luongo make 10 million next season.. Vesey, Thornton and Simmons combined make 3.1..

There is no need to spend 3+ million on a 4th liner. That doesn't mean they are better than Joe Thorntion making 700 K. I find it odd when people talk about cap they won't look at an entire roster.


I would want Dubas fired ASAP if he ever considered moving a 21 year-old franchise C you build around. Of course he'd never do that though.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Dudes who voted for Rutherford: what the f***?

His recents moves aren't that great, but the guy just won two cups back-to-freaking-back...

Yeah, the near future isn't that great, but he just won two cups! I don't know what else he needs to do lol

He doesn't compare to guys like Bergevin or Benning, two dudes who hasn't won anything for years

 

[WetcoastOrca]

This thread has devolved into one Leaf’s extreme homer/cheerleader (who apparently registered as a new user about a week ago ) defending every move Dubas has made while the rest of the posters acknowledging his mistakes but disagreeing with his overall rating.
I think he’s clearly a bottom 10 GM at this point (second worst imo) although obviously he has had less time on the job than other GMs and could still show that he has learned from his mistakes.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Dudes who voted for Rutherford: what the f***?

His recents moves aren't that great, but the guy just won two cups back-to-freaking-back...

Yeah, the near future isn't that great, but he just won two cups! I don't know what else he needs to do lol

He doesn't compare to guys like Bergevin or Benning, two dudes who hasn't won anything for years

I don't think people will let that change their mind and for good reason. He's been a very mediocre GM for decades> I think arguing "3 cups" is rather lazy and still doesn't give you much insight into his GM career.
That 06 cup win was very lucky. He walked into a contender with elite talent already there to win back to back cups. I'm actually surprised he didn't get fired years prior to that cup win in Carolina. So many bad drafts and trades.

I do think adding the supporting pieces to help the Pens in 2016 and 17 was the best moves of his GM career. They addressed the depth issues they had for years since the first 09 cup win.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

This thread has devolved into one Leaf’s extreme homer/cheerleader (who apparently registered as a new user about a week ago ) defending every move Dubas has made while the rest of the posters acknowledging his mistakes but disagreeing with his overall rating.
I think he’s clearly a bottom 10 GM at this point (second worst imo) although obviously he has had less time on the job than other GMs and could still show that he has learned from his mistakes.

Don't want to comment on your own GMs mistakes with the cap eh

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Don't want to comment on your own GMs mistakes with the cap eh

I’ve already commented numerous times. Benning is bottom 10 as well. I’m not an extreme homer/ cheerleader like yourself.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I’ve already commented numerous times. Benning is bottom 10 as well. I’m not an extreme homer/ cheerleader like yourself.

JUst saying your 4 players for 40 million supposedly tells the whole story of Dubas without any context into the quality and prodution of those players, while ignoring the horrific cap waste on the Canucks.

 

[Fatass]

Lou created cap issues. You know how Marner is supposedly sucha horrible contract? Marleau and Zaistsev made the same (10.8 in cap)
Pay your stars. Don't overpay supporting talent.
And why is Toronto having cap issues such a big deal? What team doesn't? Toronto should not have any cap space with their talent level.

I look at the Leafs lineup and se a very balanced team. That feels like an argument that no longer fits. TRavis Dermott now needs to fight for a role on the D.

And BTW, why do you only judge a team by 3 players? I'm confused. Vancouver is considered a future contender and they are wasting like 30 million on crappy and retired players. Jay Beagle, Brandon Sutter and Roberto Luongo make 10 million next season.. Vesey, Thornton and Simmons combined make 3.1..

There is no need to spend 3+ million on a 4th liner. That doesn't mean they are better than Joe Thorntion making 700 K. I find it odd when people talk about cap they won't look at an entire roster.


I would want Dubas fired ASAP if he ever considered moving a 21 year-old franchise C you build around. Of course he'd never do that though.

I’m first to say Benning is the worst GM. I’m pointing out that Dubas is near the bottom too. He did take a roster that Lou left (105 points) and in a couple years turn that roster into (95 points). Imo, signing JT wasn’t a good move unless trading out players to balance the lineup. Benning is still by far worse though.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I’m first to say Benning is the worst GM. I’m pointing out that Dubas is near the bottom too. He did take a roster that Lou left (105 points) and in a couple years turn that roster into (95 points). Imo, signing JT wasn’t a good move unless trading out players to balance the lineup. Benning is still by far worse though.

Leafs had a 103 point pace with a ton of injuress with their new coach. Sorry, I am not seeing this big regression people talk about. They won nothing under Lou and that 105 point team litterally had no injuries. Last year they missed Rielly and Muzzin at the same time under Keefe and still was ona 103 point pace.

Signing JT is one of the best UFA signings in NHL history. The numbers support this. Why is 11 million for him an issue but 10.8 for Marleau and Zaitsev were not? I'm confused.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

JUst saying your 4 players for 40 million supposedly tells the whole story of Dubas without any context into the quality and prodution of those players, while ignoring the horrific cap waste on the Canucks.

Hmmm. 'Conext' Now why does that sound so familiar.
The whole story on Dubas is told by the results on the ice. Hockey is about more than just cap space and spreadsheets my young new poster.

 

[Just Linda]

Dudes who voted for Rutherford: what the f***?

His recents moves aren't that great, but the guy just won two cups back-to-freaking-back...

Yeah, the near future isn't that great, but he just won two cups! I don't know what else he needs to do lol

He doesn't compare to guys like Bergevin or Benning, two dudes who hasn't won anything for years

Rutherford consistently does negative value trades and the team has lost a lot of what won him the cups based on his moves. Johnson, Matheson, Galchenyuk, lots of examples of his staff not properly understanding player values.

I mean look at this page
History of NHL trades by the Pittsburgh Penguins - NHL Trade Tracker

The only trade in the first page that the Pens seemed to have won is the Maata for Kahun trade, a trade they undid shortly after by shipping Kahun for next to nothing. Before that it is arguably the Oleksiuk trade in '17, another trade they undid.

 

[Bouboumaster]

I don't think people will let that change their mind and for good reason. He's been a very mediocre GM for decades> I think arguing "3 cups" is rather lazy and still doesn't give you much insight into his GM career.
That 06 cup win was very lucky. He walked into a contender with elite talent already there to win back to back cups. I'm actually surprised he didn't get fired years prior to that cup win in Carolina. So many bad drafts and trades.

I do think adding the supporting pieces to help the Pens in 2016 and 17 was the best moves of his GM career. They addressed the depth issues they had for years since the first 09 cup win.

Rutherford consistently does negative value trades and the team has lost a lot of what won him the cups based on his moves. Johnson, Matheson, Galchenyuk, lots of examples of his staff not properly understanding player values.

I mean look at this page
History of NHL trades by the Pittsburgh Penguins - NHL Trade Tracker

The only trade in the first page that the Pens seemed to have won is the Maata for Kahun trade, a trade they undid shortly after by shipping Kahun for next to nothing. Before that it is arguably the Oleksiuk trade in '17, another trade they undid.

You can argue all you want, but you can't argue against the two cups he recently won lol
And yet, he has more votes than Jim Benning??
A man who won absolutly nothing since he's in Vancouver?

 

[Hattrick Kane]

Voting for Bowman doesn’t make any sense if you don’t vote for a guy like Wilson first. Wilson has destroyed that Sharks team and they haven’t won a damn thing. Same with Poile, a team that struggles that badly on offense and hasn’t won a damn thing in like 20 years.