WJC 2022

[FLAMESFAN]

Do we really only have Coronato this year?

As always, Go Canada!

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[BigRangy]

Yup

and also go canada!

 

[Dack]

Kuznetsov would be there too if Russia didn't exclude every player who played in North America.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Rarely have we not had a player on Team Canada, let alone only 1 prospect in the whole tourny.
Hopefully we have one that we don't even know yet....Wright, Bedard etc!

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

McTavish I believe is TC’s best player. He’s a beauty.

 

[Nanuuk]

So much for watching Coronato..

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

It’s funny the consensus on HF was that MacTavish, Wallstedt and Power were all overrated at the draft. Another shining example of the talent “evaluation” on this site.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Angers me a great deal the Ducks draft a Getzlaf replacement basically the year he declines, while the Flames haven't drafted a C of that caliber since... Nieuwendyk in 1985.

 

[Volica]

It’s funny the consensus on HF was that MacTavish, Wallstedt and Power were all overrated at the draft. Another shining example of the talent “evaluation” on this site.

It’s literally people punching in numbers into an excel type program, and looking at production in the league and age.

It’s fine as a secondary tool, but it’s just as flawed as regular drafting; if not more because it takes into account literally nothing physical about a player… who is playing… a sport.

 

[Mobiandi]

Wallstedt was the goalie the Oilers passed on, no? Go get that Vezina, Jesper

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

It’s literally people punching in numbers into an excel type program, and looking at production in the league and age.

It’s fine as a secondary tool, but it’s just as flawed as regular drafting; if not more because it takes into account literally nothing physical about a player… who is playing… a sport.

I think NHLe is very important. Players like Kyle Conner, Alex DeBrincat, Adam Fox etc all scored way higher by those dimensions then the traditional scouting community who saw too thin or undersized and subpar skating. Dustin Wolf looks like he next one for us.

But there is for sure a bit of favouritism to prospects who light it up in junior to guys who passed the eye test. Guys like Owen Power, Jordan Kyrou, Jacob Pelletier, Brady Tkachuk, Travis Konecny, Bo Horvat etc, who clearly were more talented than their draft production showed. They were playing more pro games and need to change less of their game. Others like Wallstedt, Lundell and MacTavish get underrated by those posters who are obsessed with NHLe because they are already playing pro.

 

[Volica]

I think NHLe is very important. Players like Kyle Conner, Alex DeBrincat, Adam Fox etc all scored way higher by those dimensions then the traditional scouting community who saw too thin or undersized and subpar skating. Dustin Wolf looks like he next one for us.

But there is for sure a bit of favouritism to prospects who light it up in junior to guys who passed the eye test. Guys like Owen Power, Jordan Kyrou, Jacob Pelletier, Brady Tkachuk, Travis Konecny, Bo Horvat etc, who clearly were more talented than their draft production showed. They were playing more pro games and need to change less of their game. Others like Wallstedt, Lundell and MacTavish get underrated by those posters who are obsessed with NHLe because they are already playing pro.

Like I said, I think it's a great secondary tool; especially in finding the Kucherov's of the world where their draft stock is low because of size, weight, skating, nationality (will they come over?)... but you shouldn't base your entire "they're so f***ing stupid for passing/drafting this guy" on these stats. They're just as likely to produce a Grigorenko as they are a Kucherov as a top pick.

Like, Power is a prime example.
Scouts saw a massive, good skating defenceman, 17/18 year old playing 20-24 year olds; and said yeah, this is a guy who has some masssssssive potential.

NHLe scouts saw a late birthday 18 year old, in the NCAA putting up 'okay' numbers though nothing spectacular. I recall seeing a number of draft lists with him out of the top 5/10.

 

[InfinityIggy]

It’s literally people punching in numbers into an excel type program, and looking at production in the league and age.

It’s fine as a secondary tool, but it’s just as flawed as regular drafting; if not more because it takes into account literally nothing physical about a player… who is playing… a sport.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Do not paint us all with the same brush. Some of us use the decades old, tried and true method of referring to the 'NHL Quality Name Almanac' to decide who our favorite prospects from each draft will be.

 

[Roadrage]

Rarely have we not had a player on Team Canada, let alone only 1 prospect in the whole tourny.
Hopefully we have one that we don't even know yet....Wright, Bedard etc!

Going to have to tank pretty hard to get any one of them.

 

[Dack]

I assume I'm one of our "NHLe obsessed posters".

1. I've literally never argued for anything more than incorporating production into our scouting, as in scout players and use it to pick/avoid guys with seriously high/low production. The same way you wouldn't draft a guy whos an awful skater or has low hockey IQ high in the draft you avoid guys who haven't produced, especially in the middle rounds. I've also completely ignored production in some player evaluations in the past. For example I really liked Svechkov last year even though most models weren't high on him and I wasn't as high as most on Chaz Lucius, despite his very good production.
Additionally, I think I'm the only one who really had anything to say on our 5th round pick Cole Jordan (who absolutely is not an NHLe pick) but was loved by a few local WHL scouts who's opinions I trust.

TLDR: It's a tool, it should be incorporated into player evaluation. That doesn't mean I think it's wrong to take the 5th ranked player over the 2nd ranked player when your scouts agree the 5th ranked player has higher upside/is more likely to translate to the NHL.

2. Lundell is not an example of this. I'm pretty sure Bader's model had Lundell higher than where he was drafted, Lundell had an elite D-1 season and his draft season was better than Rantanen's. I specifically didn't like him because watching him in his draft year reminded me of Sean Monahan. I felt he was a poor skater, who developed early and capitalized on almost all of his chances despite not generating very many. Over the summer of his draft year he massively improved his skating and the talent is a lot more obvious. I just didn't like him in the top 10 at the time.

3. Owen Power was ranked 6th, that's clearly a little low but there were many scouts (not numbers guys) who had Power at 6 or even lower last year. It's not as if the numbers guys hated him and all the scouts raved about his game. He, like most players in the 2021 draft had/has question marks. Here's a scout (for elite prospects and Dobber) I follow even questioning how translatable his offensive game was.



4. McTavish is a bit of a weird one. His ranking in the model was largely based off of his D-1 season and 13 games in a Swiss league. I don't think that's fair to him or the model. His single biggest draft stock booster was the U18s which Bader's model doesn't incorporate. He also seems to have developed a lot over his draft season. Tony Ferrari (former head scout of Dobber prospects, now works for The Hockey News said in regards to McTavish: "I was down on him early because his early season games with Olten were *fine*. I circled back and watched a few of his other season games and there was something that clicked. He was really good as the season wore on. Just keeps impressing."

Many of the scouts who I follow on Twitter and who's opinions I trust had him in their top 3/5. Cam Robinson, mentioned earlier, was one of the biggest proponents of him and had him at 2. I also don't think he was disliked on HF. I think the U18s got a lot more viewing than they usually do and McTavish dominated at them. I saw almost entirely positive things following the U18s. Even then it seems clear to me that he's still making big leaps in his development, he looks far more fluid than he did even at the U18s. The Ducks have been drafting so well in the last ~3 years. The only bad thing I ever said about him IIRC is that he wasn't going to be there at 13.


TLDR: Nhle is a tool that should be incorporated and just because I use it doesn't mean it's the only thing I focus on. Just because a guy is ranked 6th by Bader doesn't mean I'm comfortable picking him at 6, might just mean he's a good chance to take in round 3. People don't have to use one or the other and I'm not Georgeleafer.

 

[Volica]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Do not paint us all with the same brush. Some of us use the decades old, tried and true method of referring to the 'NHL Quality Name Almanac' to decide who are favorite prospects from each draft will be.

Tough, but fair.

 

[Volica]

I assume I'm one of our "NHLe obsessed posters".

1. I've literally never argued for anything more than incorporating production into our scouting, as in scout players and use it to pick/avoid guys with seriously high/low production. The same way you wouldn't draft a guy whos an awful skater or has low hockey IQ high in the draft you avoid guys who haven't produced, especially in the middle rounds. I've also completely ignored production in some player evaluations in the past. For example I really liked Svechkov last year even though most models weren't high on him and I wasn't as high as most on Chaz Lucius, despite his very good production.
Additionally, I think I'm the only one who really had anything to say on our 5th round pick Cole Jordan (who absolutely is not an NHLe pick) but was loved by a few local WHL scouts who's opinions I trust.

TLDR: It's a tool, it should be incorporated into player evaluation. That doesn't mean I think it's wrong to take the 5th ranked player over the 2nd ranked player when your scouts agree the 5th ranked player has higher upside/is more likely to translate to the NHL.

2. Lundell is not an example of this. I'm pretty sure Bader's model had Lundell higher than where he was drafted, Lundell had an elite D-1 season and his draft season was better than Rantanen's. I specifically didn't like him because watching him in his draft year reminded me of Sean Monahan. I felt he was a poor skater, who developed early and capitalized on almost all of his chances despite not generating very many. Over the summer of his draft year he massively improved his skating and the talent is a lot more obvious. I just didn't like him in the top 10 at the time.

3. Owen Power was ranked 6th, that's clearly a little low but there were many scouts (not numbers guys) who had Power at 6 or even lower last year. It's not as if the numbers guys hated him and all the scouts raved about his game. He, like most players in the 2021 draft had/has question marks. Here's a scout (for elite prospects and Dobber) I follow even questioning how translatable his offensive game was.



4. McTavish is a bit of a weird one. His ranking in the model was largely based off of his D-1 season and 13 games in a Swiss league. I don't think that's fair to him or the model. His single biggest draft stock booster was the U18s which Bader's model doesn't incorporate. He also seems to have developed a lot over his draft season. Tony Ferrari (former head scout of Dobber prospects, now works for The Hockey News said in regards to McTavish: "I was down on him early because his early season games with Olten were *fine*. I circled back and watched a few of his other season games and there was something that clicked. He was really good as the season wore on. Just keeps impressing."

Many of the scouts who I follow on Twitter and who's opinions I trust had him in their top 3/5. Cam Robinson, mentioned earlier, was one of the biggest proponents of him and had him at 2. I also don't think he was disliked on HF. I think the U18s got a lot more viewing than they usually do and McTavish dominated at them. I saw almost entirely positive things following the U18s. Even then it seems clear to me that he's still making big leaps in his development, he looks far more fluid than he did even at the U18s. The Ducks have been drafting so well in the last ~3 years. The only bad thing I ever said about him IIRC is that he wasn't going to be there at 13.


TLDR: Nhle is a tool that should be incorporated and just because I use it doesn't mean it's the only thing I focus on. Just because a guy is ranked 6th by Bader doesn't mean I'm comfortable picking him at 6, might just mean he's a good chance to take in round 3. People don't have to use one or the other and I'm not Georgeleafer.

I honestly don't even think anyone on HFFlames hit my radar in terms of NHLe.

The mainboards were a cesspool, and Twitter was horrendous.

Watching 19 year olds who likely never played a second of hockey in their lives be like "This guy should be the first overall, what a dumbasses these scouts are for not taking them. Player X is the best player here, these teams are so stupid having him ranked in the 4th round." is really the crowd I'm pointing at. Watching Power turn out to being an absolute monster is really funny in that regard. Some of the comments just made me chuckle. One I recall was someone being like "why are people talking about Hedman when they mention this guy? He's closer to Braydon Coburn or Luke Schenn <Throws in these NHLe Player cards>."

Again, it's a fine tool. I have no issues with it. You can find some great players especially deeper in drafts with it; but this weird "I use stats and they are the gospel of God" new gen hockey fan is 100% pleasure for me.

 

[Dack]

I honestly don't even think anyone on HFFlames hit my radar in terms of NHLe.

The mainboards were a cesspool, and Twitter was horrendous.

Watching 19 year olds who likely never played a second of hockey in their lives be like "This guy should be the first overall, what a dumbasses these scouts are for not taking them. Player X is the best player here, these teams are so stupid having him ranked in the 4th round." is really the crowd I'm pointing at. Watching Power turn out to being an absolute monster is really funny in that regard. Some of the comments just made me chuckle. One I recall was someone being like "why are people talking about Hedman when they mention this guy? He's closer to Braydon Coburn or Luke Schenn <Throws in these NHLe Player cards>."

Again, it's a fine tool. I have no issues with it. You can find some great players especially deeper in drafts with it; but this weird "I use stats and they are the gospel of God" new gen hockey fan is 100% pleasure for me.

That's fair. I assumed I was one of the people being discussed just because I'm one of the few people who've brought it up on this board and probably the biggest proponent of it.

 

[TheHudlinator]

It’s funny the consensus on HF was that MacTavish, Wallstedt and Power were all overrated at the draft. Another shining example of the talent “evaluation” on this site.

A good WDJ doesn't mean a player is good nor does a bad WDJ mean a player is bad. With that I do believe those 3 will be better then the nay sayers have said.

Can't believe they didn't bubble this year unreal they have canceled it

 

[Bounces R Way]

Complete garbage from the IIHF and Hockey Canada. Feel for the kids, especially the ones that flew halfway across the world.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

That's fair. I assumed I was one of the people being discussed just because I'm one of the few people who've brought it up on this board and probably the biggest proponent of it.

the way I look at scouts is I use NHLe to identify the top guys than I try to get viewings on as many as I can (the WJCs and u18s are usually the best for this).

I think that a player needs to have a good NHLe to become a legit project. Very rarely do you have low producing players at the junior levels even sniffing the NHL. But also it’s something that can’t be overrated.

Players that play in Sweden, Swiss, NCAA, Finland and the KHL, generally don’t get the hype of the CHL players and require more scouting. I think the biggest example was Brady Tkachuk. In the WJCs, as a draft eligible player, he was basically the USAs best player but people looked at his stat line and thought it was the whole story. Other guys like Byfield were so unimpressive to me and I saw him at least 15 times. I just couldn’t ignore that despite his production. I’m not surprised he’s struggling at this point in his career.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

 

[TheHudlinator]

Complete garbage from the IIHF and Hockey Canada. Feel for the kids, especially the ones that flew halfway across the world.

Absolutely embarrassing they literally did it last year and still f***ed it up this year

 

[Mazatt]

what an absolute display of incompetence by the IIHF and Hockey Canada. Either COVID is serious enough that you need to cancel the tournament after 4 positives and games being cancelled after 1, and you're lodging situation should reflect that, or COVID isn't serious enough so you can have teams staying in hotels with weddings and old maskless couples... except they tried to get the best of both worlds by treating COVID seriously and trying to stop the spread, but the way they stopped the spread was sending players back to their hotels which weren't booked out, and had people all throughout them. In the holiday season. It is so easily predictable this set up would bite them in the ass and it's a shame they didn't realize that until it was too late.

 

[InfinityIggy]

All I know, is that this is the Oilers fault: