WJC 2016 - Roster Talk

FinPanda

Team Finland 2022 WHC champions
Mar 13, 2014
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Not wanting to be that guy, but...

Jalonen actually heading overseas to check out the OHL. Can't say this guy's not doing his homework. However, Juolevi is (at least apparently) not on the list of players he intends to check out.
Yes he is on his list. He gave a lot of praise for him in Yle Puhe interview on Saturday. Jalonen will see Juolevi twice during his visit so I'm sure we don't have anything to worry about. I really recommend to listen http://areena.yle.fi/1-3025084.

About 13.30 begin Jalonen interview, but better listen from beginning. 20.35 -> more Juolevi talk from player agent Simo Niiranen.
 

Ihmeilja

Registered User
Nov 4, 2011
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Gotta say though, lovin' our current depth. Even the prospect of not having Rantanen and/or Hintz around only feels like a slight bummer. Here's hoping we see some ripples of this in the men's NT as well a few years down the line.

Depth is good, but to be honest, there is nobody to actually replace Rantanen and I think nobody could replace Hintz either if Hintz would be in full fitt.
I'm pretty confident, that Hintz will be available, but his condition will be a question mark.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Yes he is on his list. He gave a lot of praise for him in Yle Puhe interview on Saturday. Jalonen will see Juolevi twice during his visit so I'm sure we don't have anything to worry about. I really recommend to listen http://areena.yle.fi/1-3025084.
Well, that's good to hear. I personally believe he has a place in this team. It's just that we've seen a bunch of cases where prospects of high prestige but little actual merit get overlooked by coaches, so I'm kinda attuned to prepare for the hard landing when folks seem to get high on someone.

Depth is good, but to be honest, there is nobody to actually replace Rantanen and I think nobody could replace Hintz either if Hintz would be in full fitt.
I'm pretty confident, that Hintz will be available, but his condition will be a question mark.
There is no direct replacement for Rantanen, true. But even as such, the projected squad does not absolutely need him to look like a contender.

If I'm completely honest... Hintz, in retrospect, feels like a case who dazzled last year because the team was playing pretty poorly overall. This year's iteration appears to have multiple players we can expect to perform on that level. Sure, Hintz is a shoo-in if he gets healthy in time, but unlike Rantanen, he may just be a piece we can actually replace neck-to-neck.
 
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kelsier

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Aug 17, 2013
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Now with Rantanen pretty much guaranteed being out of the squad they need to figure out the lines. Having our two best forwards in one propably isn't for the best. Also everytime I see Laine and Puljujärvi together, the latter seems to disappear more or less. Split the two and try make atleast two scoring lines, while maybe playing them together in the first PP unit.

Not having Rantanen isn't a disaster but a big loss still.
Laine could use some speed on the other side. What I'd like to see is something like:

Laine - x - Kapanen
Aho - x - Puljujärvi

The X's kind of indicate for the lack of an elite center which has been problematic eversince Teräväinen jumped the pond. I really hope Nättinen can take another leap to the next level. If he does it would be a good bandage for the first line. Not sure what to expect from Hintz (if he even recovers for the WJC?). Never been overly impressed of Kalapudas. Gymer was an unknown until the Placid. Good but not great.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Now with Rantanen pretty much guaranteed being out of the squad they need to figure out the lines. Having our two best forwards in one propably isn't for the best. Also everytime I see Laine and Puljujärvi together, the latter seems to disappear more or less. Split the two and try make atleast two scoring lines, while maybe playing them together in the first PP unit.
Why settle for two? If we have three good sniper types, let's put 'em all in their own lines by finding a decent playmaker and a complimentary player for each, now that we have the depth for once. It's also far more difficult for the opposition to match their own units against us when there's a legitimate scoring threat in each line.

Y - X - Kapanen
Y - X - Laine
Aho - X - Puljujärvi

Potential centers for the X slots include Nättinen, Saarela, Gymer and Kalapudas. Kalapudas is the obvious choice for the Kärppä line, leaving the remaining three to sort out the other two slots.

Potential wingers for Y places are Lammikko, Repo, Tammela and Saarela (if he's not used down the middle). Maybe others will rise to the occasion as well.
 

kelsier

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Aug 17, 2013
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Why settle for two? If we have three good sniper types, let's put 'em all in their own lines by finding a decent playmaker and a complimentary player for each, now that we have the depth for once. It's also far more difficult for the opposition to match their own units against us when there's a legitimate scoring threat in each line.

Y - X - Kapanen
Y - X - Laine
Aho - X - Puljujärvi

Potential centers for the X slots include Nättinen, Saarela, Gymer and Kalapudas. Kalapudas is the obvious choice for the Kärppä line, leaving the remaining three to sort out the other two slots.

Potential wingers for Y places are Lammikko, Repo, Tammela and Saarela (if he's not used down the middle). Maybe others will rise to the occasion as well.

This was tried with the 2012-13 WJC team and it didn't pan out. Especially after (Miro) Aaltonen getting injured after the first game. We have less depth now than we had back then. A lot of folks were looking at the coaches but once you always start branding the staff for poor results it becomes nothing more than a trend. Two really good lines is enough atleast if they develope chemisty. If you're super stacked (like f.ex. Canada) then sure, what's stopping you from running 3 or 4 lines. Finland doesn't have that luxury. One "star" player per line isn't enough in a team sport (unless you have one Crosby running in each of them).

A needless reminder but Finland basicly snatched a suprise gold with only one line the other year. My two cents anyway.
 

FiLe

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Oct 9, 2009
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This was tried with the 2012-13 WJC team and it didn't pan out. Especially after (Miro) Aaltonen getting injured after the first game. We have less depth now than we had back then.
This is bull. While the centre selection may have been somewhat better that year (we had Ma.Granlund, Barkov and Aaltonen), overall the depth ended with the top-six. You can't call it good depth if the third line had a player like Bilbo Järveläinen and the team went off-kilter after the loss of Aaltonen.

Initial top-9 in 2013:
Salomäki - Granlund - Armia
Teräväinen - Barkov - Lehkonen
Hännikäinen - Aaltonen - Järveläinen

In other words, very traditional top-six heavy squad with no attempt whatsoever to spread the wealth. After Aaltonen's injury, things remained the same, only Robert Leino was inserted as 3rd line C.


Even if the C depth is lacking any obvious top picks now, it's still a decent selection and winger depth is miles better, the lack of Rantanen notwithstanding. Like I said, this year we have 10-12 solid picks, all seasoned Liiga players, to fill our top-nine.

A needless reminder but Finland basicly snatched a suprise gold with only one line the other year. My two cents anyway.
And even that line wasn't stacked with top talent - given that its wingers were Mäenalanen and Lehkonen. You could basically say we won that gold with three players - Teuvo, Ristolainen and Saros.

This time 'round the tip of the spear may not be as sharp, but the pool IS exceptionally wide. That calls for a wide, even team.

Lammikko is playing C in Kingston.
If he can add to our centre depth too, even better.
 

kelsier

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Aug 17, 2013
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This is bull. While the centre selection may have been somewhat better that year (we had Ma.Granlund, Barkov and Aaltonen), overall the depth ended with the top-six. You can't call it good depth if the third line had a player like Bilbo Järveläinen and the team went off-kilter after the loss of Aaltonen.

Initial top-9 in 2013:
Salomäki - Granlund - Armia
Teräväinen - Barkov - Lehkonen
Hännikäinen - Aaltonen - Järveläinen

In other words, very traditional top-six heavy squad with no attempt whatsoever to spread the wealth. After Aaltonen's injury, things remained the same, only Robert Leino was inserted as 3rd line C.


Even if the C depth is lacking any obvious top picks now, it's still a decent selection and winger depth is miles better, the lack of Rantanen notwithstanding. Like I said, this year we have 10-12 solid picks, all seasoned Liiga players, to fill our top-nine.

And even that line wasn't stacked with top talent - given that its wingers were Mäenalanen and Lehkonen. You could basically say we won that gold with three players - Teuvo, Ristolainen and Saros.

This time 'round the tip of the spear may not be as sharp, but the pool IS exceptionally wide. That calls for a wide, even team.

If he can add to our centre depth too, even better.

Are you absolutely sure you watched the WJC? :laugh:

Here's the lineup for the first game:

http://www.leijonat.fi/maajoukkueet...-nuoret-leijonat-nälkäisinä-mm-avaukseen.html

Seems you have some sort of a memory break down or just googled the wrong url. As said, Finland tried to run 3 lines and failed. Now if you dig in deeper you'll find out this was the original layout by RindellI. It's not looking like we would be in position to do any better. For someone to think lines can be run by one individual with the kind of succession demanded is somewhat flawed. Howmany times have Penguins been in the Finals in the recent years while having maybe the best two centers in the game?

I said we won the tournament with one line. In reality Teräväinen, Saros, Ristolainen and Pokka were the key figures. You can't count with two hands the times these guys were on the ice on the same time so the statement remains valid. Didn't bother to mention Lehkonen nor Mäenalainen (who both are sub par first line players in this regard) as the original discussion was about 2012-13 and about the benefits & disadvantages regarding using three lines - of whch the country has tried once already. It either doesn't work or ends with one injury.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Seems you have some sort of a memory break down or just googled the wrong url. As said, Finland tried to run 3 lines and failed. Now if you dig in deeper you'll find out this was the original layout by RindellI. It's not looking like we would be in position to do any better. For someone to think lines can be run by one individual with the kind of succession demanded is somewhat flawed. Howmany times have Penguins been in the Finals in the recent years while having maybe the best two centers in the game?
Okay, my memory failed me with that opening setup, probably because they kept shuffling the lines in every goddamn game (had to go back and see if they ever settled on a stable lineup - they didn't). But I think you're still wrong by stating it couldn't work this time around - because both the winger quality and the player types available match the three-line setup far better.

For example, both the 2nd and 3rd line in that 2013 setup lack a proven finisher. Only the 1st line was set into the traditional "two-way player - playmaker - sniper" mold. The 2nd line had one complementary player, a playmaker and a grinder. And that 3rd had two playmakers and one physically unimposing midget. (Not hating you as a person, Bilbo, but truth be told, they never should've picked you.)

This time around, we have three good sniper types in Kapanen, Laine and Puljujärvi. Then, we need to find a decent playmaker for each of 'em. Insert Nättinen, Gymer/Saarela/Lammikko and Kalapudas. Finally, put in the complementary player out of the selection that's made of Aho, both Saarela and Lammikko if they don't play C, Tammela, Repo and who else. All quality players, and also far better suitable for their given roles.

So, no, you can't just one-mindedly say "spreading the wealth won't work" because it's not just the method itself, but what kind of pieces you're working with. Plus what kind of game plan the coach lays out is a factor too - a regard in which I consider Jalonen superior to a washout like Rindell. Plus, it has far better odds of working if the lines actually can stay stable. All the shuffle, shuffle, shuffle Rindell did really tells us he was either panicking, had no friggin' clue, or both.

It either doesn't work or ends with one injury.
Wait, what? Are you seriously telling me here that a player getting injured will only be a bad thing if you have three even lines? I mean, even if you have two lines or just one, those can potentially be hampered by a snag like that too, won't they? So that comment makes no sense whatsoever.

And even if you end up having an even lineup thrown into disarray because of an injury, you still have the option of rearranging the lines into just two good ones there and then. Or, you keep running the two good ones you still have, and make the third one do with whatever part you have available as replacement.


Bottom line, however, is this: In 2013, the reason it didn't work was not because there was something wrong in trying to run three even lines in principle. It didn't work because they didn't have the players required to try it (even before the Aaltonen injury) - yet chose to do so anyway. All it tells us is how inept a coach we had. This time around, they should have the necessary pieces (at least as long as the players projected to make it stay healthy - if they don't, it's another story). The difference is massive.
 
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kelsier

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Aug 17, 2013
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Okay, my memory failed me with that opening setup, probably because they kept shuffling the lines in every goddamn game (had to go back and see if they ever settled on a stable lineup - they didn't). But I think you're still wrong by stating it couldn't work this time around - because both the winger quality and the player types available match the three-line setup far better.

For example, both the 2nd and 3rd line in that 2013 setup lack a proven finisher. Only the 1st line was set into the traditional "two-way player - playmaker - sniper" mold. The 2nd line had one complementary player, a playmaker and a grinder. And that 3rd had two playmakers and one physically unimposing midget. (Not hating you as a person, Bilbo, but truth be told, they never should've picked you.)

This time around, we have three good sniper types in Kapanen, Laine and Puljujärvi. Then, we need to find a decent playmaker for each of 'em. Insert Nättinen, Gymer/Saarela/Lammikko and Kalapudas. Finally, put in the complementary player out of the selection that's made of Aho, both Saarela and Lammikko if they don't play C, Tammela, Repo and who else. All quality players, and also far better suitable for their given roles.

So, no, you can't just one-mindedly say "spreading the wealth won't work" because it's not just the method itself, but what kind of pieces you're working with. Plus what kind of game plan the coach lays out is a factor too - a regard in which I consider Jalonen superior to a washout like Rindell. Plus, it has far better odds of working if the lines actually can stay stable. All the shuffle, shuffle, shuffle Rindell did really tells us he was either panicking, had no friggin' clue, or both.

Wait, what? Are you seriously telling me here that a player getting injured will only be a bad thing if you have three even lines? I mean, even if you have two lines or just one, those can potentially be hampered by a snag like that too, won't they? So that comment makes no sense whatsoever.

And even if you end up having an even lineup thrown into disarray because of an injury, you still have the option of rearranging the lines into just two good ones there and then. Or, you keep running the two good ones you still have, and make the third one do with whatever part you have available as replacement.


Bottom line, however, is this: In 2013, the reason it didn't work was not because there was something wrong in trying to run three even lines in principle. It didn't work because they didn't have the players required to try it (even before the Aaltonen injury) - yet chose to do so anyway. All it tells us is how inept a coach we had. This time around, they should have the necessary pieces (at least as long as the players projected to make it stay healthy - if they don't, it's another story). The difference is massive.

I don't know wether you watched the WJC or rather just googled it. Either way, better to admit than argue.

Everything can be tried, but again your wrong with our player depth for this kind of tryout. First the whole idea is based on three finishers who are a) 17 year old kids b) proven inconsistant player who has failed in every single WJC up until today +x) overestimating the ability of the surrounding players who are not either P, L or K.

If both Laine and Puljujärvi were 19, this could be debatable but they aren't even drafted yet. Kapanen is 19 but really hasn't shown anything in the international level on the U20s. Actually even Aho is right now more valuable player to the team than him. The best thing is to shuffle these players in to 2 lines and go with it. Not only will they do just that, I'm willing to bet that Finland isn't going to play three lines. Why? Cause it's better to have two scoring lines where the players can relay on each other rather than having to do stuff by themselves. Now, what do you wanna wager? :laugh:

Huh wait what? Injury of a corner stone player has even effect when debating of running three line versus two line philosophy? M'kay. :laugh:

Luckily we have Jalonen instead of Rindell this time. Nothing he's done so far indicates Finland would try any stupid tryouts of shuffling lines and messing up the synergy.
 

JJTT

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Jan 18, 2013
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Watched Pelicans-Ässät yesterday(Highlights http://nelonenmedia-pmd.nelonenmedia.fi/video/31/video_clip_2229531_600_none.mp4):

Repo constantly makes good decisions with the puck, smart passes, good dekes and shoots when he has an opportunity. Looked really good playing on the left point in PP and scored a nice one-timer goal. I think he would fit very well with Laine if Jalonen decides to keep Laine at LW.

Siikonen is a your prototypical big fourth line center who can take important faceoffs, hit and play on PK.

Saarela is also starting to looks the player he was a few years ago since Rautakallio finally has trust in him(19:54 average icetime this year). Played on PK, PP and took a lot of faceoffs. Scored a goal and could've had few more points with better luck, skating is really strong too. I'd put him with Aho and Puljujärvi see how it goes.

Kalapudas on the other hand has been bad with Kärpät even though he has had plenty of opportunities. Just too weak physically and bad skater for his size. Kestilä was called up from Hokki today and Kalapudas is a healthy scratch.

Laine-Hintz-Repo
Aho-Saarela-Puljujärvi
Tammela-Nättinen-Kapanen
Kiviranta-Siikonen-Lammikko
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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I don't know wether you watched the WJC or rather just googled it. Either way, better to admit than argue.
I'd say my posting history should reveal I was very much watching it at the time. What I can admit is that it's a bit difficult to recall the details when said details kept changing from game to game.

Everything can be tried, but again your wrong with our player depth for this kind of tryout. First the whole idea is based on three finishers who are a) 17 year old kids b) proven inconsistant player who has failed in every single WJC up until today +x) overestimating the ability of the surrounding players who are not either P, L or K.
I'm one of the first people to rein people in when they get hyped up on a prospect, but it's still kinda hard to find any seasoned vets when we're talking about an U20 tournament. Besides, everything is relative. With the exception of Gymer, who's playing in Junior A, all of these players I've been talking about are Liiga regulars. That's very much high quality on an event like this.

If both Laine and Puljujärvi were 19, this could be debatable but they aren't even drafted yet. Kapanen is 19 but really hasn't shown anything in the international level on the U20s. Actually even Aho is right now more valuable player to the team than him. The best thing is to shuffle these players in to 2 lines and go with it. Not only will they do just that, I'm willing to bet that Finland isn't going to play three lines. Why? Cause it's better to have two scoring lines where the players can relay on each other rather than having to do stuff by themselves. Now, what do you wanna wager?
I won't hold it against Jalonen if he wants to stack the deck and build an extremely top-heavy team. It's certainly an option and if he figures it's for the best, I won't question him on it. Besides, it would admittedly make building special teams and line rotation after PP minutes quite a bit easier, when one can use the same lines in 5on5 play. However, that still does not change the fact that we have every piece necessary to run three scoring lines as well. Both are good options with their own high sides. There's no way to argue around that.

Huh wait what? Injury of a corner stone player has even effect when debating of running three line versus two line philosophy? M'kay.
It's still a bit unclear to me why you brought up the Aaltonen injury here. Because I really don't see it being an argument for or against spreading the wealth - granted that we have the wealth in the first place.

Luckily we have Jalonen instead of Rindell this time. Nothing he's done so far indicates Finland would try any stupid tryouts of shuffling lines and messing up the synergy.
A-men. Rindell was just horrible in that regard.
 
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ChicagoBullsFan

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Jun 6, 2015
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Finland
Watched Pelicans-Ässät yesterday(Highlights http://nelonenmedia-pmd.nelonenmedia.fi/video/31/video_clip_2229531_600_none.mp4):

Repo constantly makes good decisions with the puck, smart passes, good dekes and shoots when he has an opportunity. Looked really good playing on the left point in PP and scored a nice one-timer goal. I think he would fit very well with Laine if Jalonen decides to keep Laine at LW.

Siikonen is a your prototypical big fourth line center who can take important faceoffs, hit and play on PK.

Saarela is also starting to looks the player he was a few years ago since Rautakallio finally has trust in him(19:54 average icetime this year). Played on PK, PP and took a lot of faceoffs. Scored a goal and could've had few more points with better luck, skating is really strong too. I'd put him with Aho and Puljujärvi see how it goes.

Kalapudas on the other hand has been bad with Kärpät even though he has had plenty of opportunities. Just too weak physically and bad skater for his size. Kestilä was called up from Hokki today and Kalapudas is a healthy scratch.

Laine-Hintz-Repo
Aho-Saarela-Puljujärvi
Tammela-Nättinen-Kapanen
Kiviranta-Siikonen-Lammikko

HIFK announced on in Thursday afternoon before JYP game, Hintz will be sidelined several weeks.
Here's my line ups based on that, what HIFK has announced on for Hintz.

1st line Palmu Nättinen Laine.
2nd line Aho Saarela Puljujärvi
3rd line Tammela Lammikko Kapanen
4th line Kiviranta Siikonen Repo
Extras Patrik Virta and Waltteri Hopponen
 
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FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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My current lottery based on the showings to date, and if we are to consider Hintz is unlikely and Rantanen now a pipe dream.

Kähkönen
Vehviläinen
Voutilainen

Tuulola - Saarijärvi
Niku - Juolevi
Mikkola - Sopanen
Haaranen

Laine - Nättinen - Repo
Tammela - Lammikko - Kapanen
Aho - Saarela - Puljujärvi
Kiviranta - Siikonen - Virta
Gymer

If you wish to stack the top-six, you can always swap Kapanen and Repo.
 

kelsier

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Aug 17, 2013
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I'd say my posting history should reveal I was very much watching it at the time. What I can admit is that it's a bit difficult to recall the details when said details kept changing from game to game.

I'm one of the first people to rein people in when they get hyped up on a prospect, but it's still kinda hard to find any seasoned vets when we're talking about an U20 tournament. Besides, everything is relative. With the exception of Gymer, who's playing in Junior A, all of these players I've been talking about are Liiga regulars. That's very much high quality on an event like this.

I won't hold it against Jalonen if he wants to stack the deck and build an extremely top-heavy team. It's certainly an option and if he figures it's for the best, I won't question him on it. Besides, it would admittedly make building special teams and line rotation after PP minutes quite a bit easier, when one can use the same lines in 5on5 play. However, that still does not change the fact that we have every piece necessary to run three scoring lines as well. Both are good options with their own high sides. There's no way to argue around that.

It's still a bit unclear to me why you brought up the Aaltonen injury here. Because I really don't see it being an argument for or against spreading the wealth - granted that we have the wealth in the first place.

A-men. Rindell was just horrible in that regard.

Nothing more boring than adding [QUATE] & [/QUATE] after each and every comment on every single reply on Sunday morning.

Anyway, exactly this. Our top prospects (say the ones who are picked #1-5) are pretty much out of the equation after they are drafted. This doesn't happen often, but f.ex. Laine and Pulju are pretty much both gone after the season. Maybe one of them do return next year for another WJC. Really problematic for a small country producing only so much talent. Still, we tend to have a lot of Liga players every year and it doesn't seem to be enough usually.

We do not have every piece necessary to run three scoring lines. That is just severe underestimation of the competition. Same argument was used on 12-13 and it ended up turning out as one of the worst tournaments in our history. If you look at the players then and now, at best the depth was more or less similar. I'd actually lean on having better quantity & quality then rather than now. I'll look it up exactly who we had in the roster then versus now when I have more time and I'm back from the travels. According to many so called 'hockey pro's' we had enough talent to win gold this year and it turned into utter failure. Had Rindell focused on creating chemistry between our top guys instead of having to shuffle lines after Miro's injury, who knows, could have been all together different. Also once again, it has been proven that it's possible to win WJC with lesser or even one elite line if all cards fall into place. Eventhough it was/is a bit of a fluke. Still, if we manage to have two lines that are able to run efficient and consistant scoring that should be enough. While Finland will still be an underdog especially compared to Canada and possibly USA as well.

Brought up Miro Aaltonen due to the fact that the three lines philosophy more or less collapsed after the injury, resulting into major shuffling of the lines throughout the remainings of the tournament that eventually lead us into regulation rounds and the worst WJC of the ages while this was supposed to be our "top year" after long period of waiting. Can't really afford another collapse in the pack of cards or the team would have to go similar rollout between the lines that would ultimately break or hurt the already found chemistry between the lines.

Can't really argue about the coaching.

Trust me, if this was a good idea they would try and execute it. There are too many X factors for a tryout and losing one or two main pieces either prior to a WJC or during the competition and the consequences could lead to another 12-13.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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We do not have every piece necessary to run three scoring lines. That is just severe underestimation of the competition. Same argument was used on 12-13 and it ended up turning out as one of the worst tournaments in our history. If you look at the players then and now, at best the depth was more or less similar.
:facepalm: Still disagree. Try to understand, it's not just the general quality of players, it's about the player types you have.

It's a whole lot of different if your hypothetical 2nd line for example has a good utility forward like Aho, a playmaker like Saarela and a finisher like Pulju. In 2013, the 2nd line had a good utility forward (Lehkonen) and a playmaker (Barkov) but did it have the sniper required? Nope, it had a grinder like Nykopp.

Same for the 3rd, which in 2013 had a lackluster piece in Järveläinen. This time around, we have three snipers - and enough good playmakers and utility forwards to pull it off. Comprende?

Brought up Miro Aaltonen due to the fact that the three lines philosophy more or less collapsed after the injury, resulting into major shuffling of the lines throughout the remainings of the tournament that eventually lead us into regulation rounds and the worst WJC of the ages while this was supposed to be our "top year" after long period of waiting. Can't really afford another collapse in the pack of cards or the team would have to go similar rollout between the lines that would ultimately break or hurt the already found chemistry between the lines.
Umm... naturally you shouldn't keep trying to run three even lines if you suddenly find yourself without the necessary pieces to do so. I never claimed one should. What Rindell should've done after the Aaltonen injury was to stack the top-six with what he had and let the bottom units make do. Instead, he chose to shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, still hoping to find some combination where the even lineup philosophy would work, while one obviously can't do so without nine suitable forwards. And let's be frank - he may have had eight or just seven to begin with, so it was an exercise doomed to fail from the get-go.

But this year? We start with the minimum of three suitable pieces for each slot required to run three even lines (and perhaps with some spares for some roles, to boot). And what happens if you run into an injury that puts things in jeopardy? Then you naturally rework things a bit, try to build at least two good stable lines instead of throwing the entire lineup in disarray.

Seriously, comparing 2013 & 2016 in regards of this situation is like comparing apples and oranges. Seriously.
 

kelsier

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Aug 17, 2013
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:facepalm: Still disagree. Try to understand, it's not just the general quality of players, it's about the player types you have.

It's a whole lot of different if your hypothetical 2nd line for example has a good utility forward like Aho, a playmaker like Saarela and a finisher like Pulju. In 2013, the 2nd line had a good utility forward (Lehkonen) and a playmaker (Barkov) but did it have the sniper required? Nope, it had a grinder like Nykopp.

Same for the 3rd, which in 2013 had a lackluster piece in Järveläinen. This time around, we have three snipers - and enough good playmakers and utility forwards to pull it off. Comprende?

We had Teräväinen, Lehkonen and Armia - all capable of scoring goals all the while having better center depth starting from Barkov (who's game seemed perhaps too celebral to actually succeed against his own peers). However If your suggesting that these guys weren't capable to finish plays, then doh. Yeah Laine and Puljujärvi are both better players than any f.ex. Lehkonen and Armia. But your flatout delusional if you think these guys can work it out without above average support cast. Saarela was dropped out from the top 6 in the Placid, that should give a hindsight of where his game is at this moment. When did he actually turn into a solid playmaker by the way? :laugh:The type of line up your talking about is better fit for a long season with a stacked up roster rather than a team that is going for a ~10 game run. Also one has to wonder what makes you think Kapanen would suddenly have raised his game to be able to run a WJC and turn it from poor to great?

Umm... naturally you shouldn't keep trying to run three even lines if you suddenly find yourself without the necessary pieces to do so. I never claimed one should. What Rindell should've done after the Aaltonen injury was to stack the top-six with what he had and let the bottom units make do. Instead, he chose to shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, still hoping to find some combination where the even lineup philosophy would work, while one obviously can't do so without nine suitable forwards. And let's be frank - he may have had eight or just seven to begin with, so it was an exercise doomed to fail from the get-go.

But this year? We start with the minimum of three suitable pieces for each slot required to run three even lines (and perhaps with some spares for some roles, to boot). And what happens if you run into an injury that puts things in jeopardy? Then you naturally rework things a bit, try to build at least two good stable lines instead of throwing the entire lineup in disarray.

Seriously, comparing 2013 & 2016 in regards of this situation is like comparing apples and oranges. Seriously.

Your not really doing well making an argument of running three 'power' lines is better than running two. Having different players and a coach isn't that much different than back then. We actually need games where we can force the game into the opposing zone instead of just taking up an opportunity and counter-attack the other team whenever possible. Having grinders who are less capable of keeping the puck isn't actually that helpful in terms of possession. The more spread out the roster is, normally leads to more shuffle when changes occur and you can't ever expect the unexpected. It seems impossible to get it through your skull that Finland isn't Canada with endless pool of talent.:facepalm:

Having wide spread roster might be good against B class countries but not vs NA teams neither against the top countries in the Europe. Finland should be in a good position creating two very good lines 2016 which in itself is a rarity and even that pretty much depends wether Jalonen will be considering splitting up Laine and Puljujärvi.

Not really sure why you bother insisting with these imaginary layouts, since they are not even close to happening. Neither am I sure on what dreamworld do you exist with the believes of having them pan out. :laugh:
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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We had Teräväinen, Lehkonen and Armia - all capable of scoring goals all the while having better center depth starting from Barkov (who's game seemed perhaps too celebral to actually succeed against his own peers). However If your suggesting that these guys weren't capable to finish plays, then doh.
There isn't just a single kind of offensive talent - there actually are subtypes even among them. And out of those three mentioned, only Armia is the finishing kind. It does not mean that others won't score if they can, but it DOES effect the way the line cycles itself once it hits the ice. 2013 team had no others you could role as "pure" snipers, therefore the three-line setup was doomed to fail from the get-go. This team appears to have three, by the looks of things. It also appears to have a minimum of three serviceable playmakers, and plenty of good utility forwards you can use to complete those three internally well-roled lines.

2016 = Enough proper subtypes for it to work (at least 3+3+3). 2013 = NOT enough subtypes to begin with (3+3+1, meaning you had to substitute the remaining two with other types).

Even that one good line in 2014 was properly roled, since as "2nd rate" as Mäenalanen and Lehkonen were compared to Teräväinen, they still fell pretty nicely into the slots of the finisher and the complementary player, respectively - leading to a line that was internally all there. Rindell's biggest mistake in 2013 was messing with the top line of Salomäki - Granlund - Armia, since keeping that one untouchable would have meant having at least one properly roled unit throughout the tournament. Once again, I'm only advocating for spreading the wealth once the wealth is there is to begin with. If it's not there or some of it gets sidelined as the tournament progresses, then the proper procedure is to build as many properly-roled lines as one can and let the others make do, hoping they can at least play to the system and bring some hustle.

But if your mind is not capable of grasping the fact that within a successful line, its internal roling - and whether it has all its players in their comfort zones or not - matter quite a bit, guess there's no point in carrying on with this.

Your not really doing well making an argument of running three 'power' lines is better than running two. Having different players and a coach isn't that much different than back then. We actually need games where we can force the game into the opposing zone instead of just taking up an opportunity and counter-attack the other team whenever possible. Having grinders who are less capable of keeping the puck isn't actually that helpful in terms of possession. The more spread out the roster is, normally leads to more shuffle when changes occur and you can't ever expect the unexpected. It seems impossible to get it through your skull that Finland isn't Canada with endless pool of talent.
Yet, this year, the pool of talent IS deep enough to allow it. I'm not saying it should be carried on into the following years if we don't have necessary subtypes, but this time, in this upcoming tournament, we DO have every piece we need (with the caveat that everyone is healthy from the get-go, ofc).

Besides, running three lines vs. two would actually require minimum shuffling. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the four wingers we have with most "name" to them (out of the ones projected to be there) are Kapanen, Laine, Puljujärvi and Aho. You can use those four two build two strong lines, all you need to do is find suitable centers for them. Aho - X - Puljujärvi and Laine - X - Kapanen. If Jalonen settles for this, I won't complain. But let's entertain ourselves with a hypothetical three-line setup a bit longer still. Now, I expect Aho and Pulju would still stick together, meaning the other two lines would be Laine - X - Y and Y - X - Kapanen. We have some pretty nice Ys this year, by the way. But in case they're not quite there, what do you have to do if the lineup needs a jump start? Swap Y and Kapanen around. Huuuuuge change, is it not? So imaginary. So not possibly happening.

And by the odd chance we actually get Rantanen too, running three comes even more feasible. Because then two lines would have Rantanen - X - Kapanen/Laine and Aho - X - Puljujärvi, using the depth left to find the remaining sniper type a pair of guys to play with a triviality - as it is pretty easy to begin with.

Not really sure why you bother insisting with these imaginary layouts, since they are not even close to happening. Neither am I sure on what dreamworld do you exist with the believes of having them pan out.
Hey, it's not my fault if you still don't get it, despite my best attempts to use the iron wire and even a block of rail track or two to bend it out to you.
 
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kelsier

Registered User
Aug 17, 2013
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There isn't just a single kind of offensive talent - there actually are subtypes even among them. And out of those three mentioned, only Armia is the finishing kind. It does not mean that others won't score if they can, but it DOES effect the way the line cycles itself once it hits the ice. 2013 team had no others you could role as "pure" snipers, therefore the three-line setup was doomed to fail from the get-go. This team appears to have three, by the looks of things. It also appears to have a minimum of three serviceable playmakers, and plenty of good utility forwards you can use to complete those three internally well-roled lines.

2016 = Enough proper subtypes for it to work (at least 3+3+3). 2013 = NOT enough subtypes to begin with (3+3+1, meaning you had to substitute the remaining two with other types).

Even that one good line in 2014 was properly roled, since as "2nd rate" as Mäenalanen and Lehkonen were compared to Teräväinen, they still fell pretty nicely into the slots of the finisher and the complementary player, respectively - leading to a line that was internally all there. Rindell's biggest mistake in 2013 was messing with the top line of Salomäki - Granlund - Armia, since keeping that one untouchable would have meant having at least one properly roled unit throughout the tournament. Once again, I'm only advocating for spreading the wealth once the wealth is there is to begin with. If it's not there or some of it gets sidelined as the tournament progresses, then the proper procedure is to build as many properly-roled lines as one can and let the others make do, hoping they can at least play to the system and bring some hustle.

But if your mind is not capable of grasping the fact that within a successful line, its internal roling - and whether it has all its players in their comfort zones or not - matter quite a bit, guess there's no point in carrying on with this.

This is where it collapses the most. The quate your words "serviceable" is almost as if insulting the whole quality of the tournament. Teams there will be stacked once again and having a guy who is able to make a pass but not exactly forcing his way to an open space to make it isn't enough. Nättinen (who was in the u18 WJC), Hintz (with V8 engine and without circuit to navigate), Saarela and Kalapudas were miles behind last year to be playing on top level when the par was set by the best players of last year's WJC. It really remains to be seen how far they have elevated, but I wouldn't make a bet they have what it takes to face NA teams' top centers and prevail the way we need them to, in sense of creating enough chances while keeping the possession out of D-zone. Finland doesn't have even one center that could remotely come close to Teräväinen's ability to create space and scoring (when looking back).

Also excluding both Lehkonen and Teräväinen from being able to count as scorers doesn't hold much value. TT's release and shot have always been fantastic and while Lehkonen may not have had the best shot, he's always been one of the best Finnish forwards in WJC when it comes down to playing around the net and having an arsenal of ways to score. Teuvo was playing wing and wasn't relied upon to playmake the game unlike the other year.
Yeah we had playmakers and scorers back then as well, just not the formula to make much anything of it.

Yet, this year, the pool of talent IS deep enough to allow it. I'm not saying it should be carried on into the following years if we don't have necessary subtypes, but this time, in this upcoming tournament, we DO have every piece we need (with the caveat that everyone is healthy from the get-go, ofc).

Besides, running three lines vs. two would actually require minimum shuffling. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the four wingers we have with most "name" to them (out of the ones projected to be there) are Kapanen, Laine, Puljujärvi and Aho. You can use those four two build two strong lines, all you need to do is find suitable centers for them. Aho - X - Puljujärvi and Laine - X - Kapanen. If Jalonen settles for this, I won't complain. But let's entertain ourselves with a hypothetical three-line setup a bit longer still. Now, I expect Aho and Pulju would still stick together, meaning the other two lines would be Laine - X - Y and Y - X - Kapanen. We have some pretty nice Ys this year, by the way. But in case they're not quite there, what do you have to do if the lineup needs a jump start? Swap Y and Kapanen around. Huuuuuge change, is it not? So imaginary. So not possibly happening.

And by the odd chance we actually get Rantanen too, running three comes even more feasible. Because then two lines would have Rantanen - X - Kapanen/Laine and Aho - X - Puljujärvi, using the depth left to find the remaining sniper type a pair of guys to play with a triviality - as it is pretty easy to begin with.

Hey, it's not my fault if you still don't get it, despite my best attempts to use the iron wire and even a block of rail track or two to bend it out to you.

There's nothing wrong with entertaining new ideas and people are free to view them as they please. Certainly opens up discussions if nothing else.

Suppose our views differ here and I've already adressed these points before so there's no reason in repeating them.
In conclusion there's no reason lifting unreal expectations to two 17 year old kids when you have better option and the depth to surround them with other talent. That's why we got older guys like Kapanen and even Aho (with one year advantage) to support Laine and Puljujärvi. Another thing is letting the top 6 guys play the top 6 minutes as opposed to letting bottom 6 guys feed off minutes from kids who have more caliber. Would 17 year old undrafted Teräväinen had carried Finland into medals? Or even year after? That's a rhetorical question with an obvious answer. I'm not even sure if Rantanen is the difference make here but his appearance would have opened up a lot more possibilities. I still prefer not to play with theoretical factors as opposed to realities.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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This is where it collapses the most. The quate your words "serviceable" is almost as if insulting the whole quality of the tournament. Teams there will be stacked once again and having a guy who is able to make a pass but not exactly forcing his way to an open space to make it isn't enough. Nättinen (who was in the u18 WJC), Hintz (with V8 engine and without circuit to navigate), Saarela and Kalapudas were miles behind last year to be playing on top level when the par was set by the best players of last year's WJC. It really remains to be seen how far they have elevated, but I wouldn't make a bet they have what it takes to face NA teams' top centers and prevail the way we need them to, in sense of creating enough chances while keeping the possession out of D-zone. Finland doesn't have even one center that could remotely come close to Teräväinen's ability to create space and scoring (when looking back).
Okay. I can see why you don't have much faith in our current centre selection, but on the other hand - isn't it more of an argument for setting up the lineup as evenly as possible? After all, if things are like you say, there are no standouts who should be eating the biggest minutes. (As opposed to 2013 when the three top '93 borns, Salomäki, MaG and Armia should've been doing the very thing.)

There's Kapanen, maybe, but to me this just further nails the point he shouldn't be on a line with either Laine/Pulju, but be the star of his own.

Also excluding both Lehkonen and Teräväinen from being able to count as scorers doesn't hold much value. TT's release and shot have always been fantastic and while Lehkonen may not have had the best shot, he's always been one of the best Finnish forwards in WJC when it comes down to playing around the net and having an arsenal of ways to score. Teuvo was playing wing and wasn't relied upon to playmake the game unlike the other year.
Like I said, I'm not questioning their offensive ability - I'm just thinking they're not the correct type to play in a line's "finisher" role. Lehkonen is and always will be more of an utility forward and most home in that slot within a line, whereas Teuvo is a playmaker first and utility second. I even consider him a supporting two-way guy third before casting him as the designated sniper.

Sure, every player will take the obvious solution like an open net or a shot if they see no lane to pass - but there is a reason why we compare players who have the "shoot first" mentality as opposed to "pass first" one. Hockey is a fast-paced game where decisions have to made in a split second - so a player considering a solution not natural to him is going to affect the entire line's play. In 2013, the only player with a "shoot first" mentality and enough skill to answer the call was Armia.

Suppose our views differ here and I've already adressed these points before so there's no reason in repeating them.
In conclusion there's no reason lifting unreal expectations to two 17 year old kids when you have better option and the depth to surround them with other talent. That's why we got older guys like Kapanen and even Aho (with one year advantage) to support Laine and Puljujärvi. Another thing is letting the top 6 guys play the top 6 minutes as opposed to letting bottom 6 guys feed off minutes from kids who have more caliber. Would 17 year old undrafted Teräväinen had carried Finland into medals? Or even year after? That's a rhetorical question with an obvious answer. I'm not even sure if Rantanen is the difference make here but his appearance would have opened up a lot more possibilities. I still prefer not to play with theoretical factors as opposed to realities.
Hang on. First you're saying that we shouldn't place too much of a burden on these 17-year-olds - but you're also against spreading them 'round the lineup, as in, having them play in lines with more mature supporting players instead of, like, each other? Don't those two points kind of... defeat themselves?

The reality is that both of these '98 born future high picks will make this team if healthy, and another bit of reality is that they'll have to play with a centre forward who may not possess all the qualities a true leading playmaker has - because, as you say, we lack one.

So how does it complete your argument if you think the third player in each of these lines should not be a more mature supporting player - which is what I've been saying all along? Isn't having a 2nd line like, say, Laine - Saarela - Puljujärvi very much putting those unrealistic expectations on the shoulders of these two "superkids"? To me, having a supporting player like Aho on the left wing makes the line look tons more "safe". Same with giving Laine a big steady Liiga forward like e.g. Repo to play with, along with Gymer/Nättinen or whoever ends up being his centerman.

Or is the difference that you see Kapanen suitable for a role like this? Because I don't - thus far he's been a chronic underachiever on this level, and now he's suddenly supposed to be someone who shelters the kids and leads the charge? I'd much rather give him as natural a slot as the circumstances allow. Give him our best centerman out of the bunch (I presume that will be either Lammikko or Nättinen) and whoever's the most mature forward we've got to bring balance to the line. If we get Rantanen, filling said slot is going to be a no-brainer. If we don't, Hintz getting healthy in time would be nice too. If he's a no-go too, well, then things may get a bit hairy. But I'd still say we have a bunch of guys with nice Liiga experience available, like Tammela, Hopponen, Virta and who else. Pretty much anybody else than a 17-year-old who should be - as you yourself say it - not having too much expected of him.

Kinda funny how all you said here in no way disagrees with the thing I'm trying to point out.
 
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kelsier

Registered User
Aug 17, 2013
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Okay. I can see why you don't have much faith in our current centre selection, but on the other hand - isn't it more of an argument for setting up the lineup as evenly as possible? After all, if things are like you say, there are no standouts who should be eating the biggest minutes. (As opposed to 2013 when the three top '93 borns, Salomäki, MaG and Armia should've been doing the very thing.)

There's Kapanen, maybe, but to me this just further nails the point he shouldn't be on a line with either Laine/Pulju, but be the star of his own.

Like I said, I'm not questioning their offensive ability - I'm just thinking they're not the correct type to play in a line's "finisher" role. Lehkonen is and always will be more of an utility forward and most home in that slot within a line, whereas Teuvo is a playmaker first and utility second. I even consider him a supporting two-way guy third before casting him as the designated sniper.

Sure, every player will take the obvious solution like an open net or a shot if they see no lane to pass - but there is a reason why we compare players who have the "shoot first" mentality as opposed to "pass first" one. Hockey is a fast-paced game where decisions have to made in a split second - so a player considering a solution not natural to him is going to affect the entire line's play. In 2013, the only player with a "shoot first" mentality and enough skill to answer the call was Armia.

Teuvo has propably more natural ability than most Finnish born guys in the 90s. If you read the Hawks boards you'll hear a lot of people comparing his shot accuracy and release to Kane's. He was obviously meant to be the goal scorer in 12-13, else they would've utilised him in the top 6. And no, that doesn't take away his ability to dictate the game. Obviously Lehkonen was expected to score goals likewise. The lineups really didn't look too bad on the paper as they were in reality (a sum of factors). Looking at the roster it was a lot easier decision to try make a three scoring lines due to the pure depth. Sure, Armia may have been the only clear shoot first guy, but I wouldn't go as far as saying Armia being the only guy to answer the call.

Hang on. First you're saying that we shouldn't place too much of a burden on these 17-year-olds - but you're also against spreading them 'round the lineup, as in, having them play in lines with more mature supporting players instead of, like, each other? Don't those two points kind of... defeat themselves?

The reality is that both of these '98 born future high picks will make this team if healthy, and another bit of reality is that they'll have to play with a centre forward who may not possess all the qualities a true leading playmaker has - because, as you say, we lack one.

So how does it complete your argument if you think the third player in each of these lines should not be a more mature supporting player - which is what I've been saying all along? Isn't having a 2nd line like, say, Laine - Saarela - Puljujärvi very much putting those unrealistic expectations on the shoulders of these two "superkids"? To me, having a supporting player like Aho on the left wing makes the line look tons more "safe". Same with giving Laine a big steady Liiga forward like e.g. Repo to play with, along with Gymer/Nättinen or whoever ends up being his centerman.

Or is the difference that you see Kapanen suitable for a role like this? Because I don't - thus far he's been a chronic underachiever on this level, and now he's suddenly supposed to be someone who shelters the kids and leads the charge? I'd much rather give him as natural a slot as the circumstances allow. Give him our best centerman out of the bunch (I presume that will be either Lammikko or Nättinen) and whoever's the most mature forward we've got to bring balance to the line. If we get Rantanen, filling said slot is going to be a no-brainer. If we don't, Hintz getting healthy in time would be nice too. If he's a no-go too, well, then things may get a bit hairy. But I'd still say we have a bunch of guys with nice Liiga experience available, like Tammela, Hopponen, Virta and who else. Pretty much anybody else than a 17-year-old who should be - as you yourself say it - not having too much expected of him.

Kinda funny how all you said here in no way disagrees with the thing I'm trying to point out.

Perhaps you missed or forgot but lets take a look back.
Now if you'd go re-read what I originally proposed:

'Not having Rantanen isn't a disaster but a big loss still.
Laine could use some speed on the other side. What I'd like to see is something like:

Laine - x - Kapanen
Aho - x - Puljujärvi '


Aho is already drafted and a very good liga player who would definately be a very good supporting cast for Puljujärvi especially since they already have history together. Throw in a two way center and you have a line there that isn't too inexperienced.

Kapanen has two WJCs under belt and possesses natural skill. We can hope and pray he's learned from the previous experience of this competition. So far he has managed to prove quite the opposite of being a star on his own. Laine needs space and having seen him play with Puljujärvi (a speedy and skilled winger) it has seem to work in his favor. Resulting into Puljujärvi being overshadowed by Laine in each and every youth tournament up until today when the two have been on the same line. So, as I've said before I'd rather find alternative solution. Couldn't care less if Kapanen gets overshadowed as long as he is able to draw players and create space. For all we know they might even complement each other. Can't even pretend Kapanen hasn't got the experience from pro level by now so that would fit even your own criteria of having someone who's played at higher levels into the mix. So basicly the debate has been:

Laine - x - x
x - x - Kapanen
x - x - Puljujärvi

VS

Laine - x - Kapanen
Aho - x - Puljujärvi

The latter seems more sensible and here's why:

a) Better players get more time on the ice
b) Guys don't have to relay on their own ability too much
c) Splitting the two obvious star forwards to ensure scoring doesn't depend on one line solely
d) It has less unknows (x's) as the team is heavily dependant of the four proven, or should we rather call, proven skill forwards
e) As opposed to giving Kapanen our best center man (to answer your question), we don't have to build anything around him and hope he becomes the supporting piece needed while there's someone capable to do the job in the middle, maybe Nättinen if he is ready

If you disagree, feel free to elaborate futher.

As it looks right now Jalonen doesn't seem to be to keen on the idea of either formation but rather keeping both of the potential next year's top 5 picks together so the dialogue is pretty theoretical anyway.
 

Orvelo

Registered User
Jul 3, 2015
132
0
Teuvo has propably more natural ability than most Finnish born guys in the 90s. If you read the Hawks boards you'll hear a lot of people comparing his shot accuracy and release to Kane's. He was obviously meant to be the goal scorer in 12-13, else they would've utilised him in the top 6. And no, that doesn't take away his ability to dictate the game. Obviously Lehkonen was expected to score goals likewise. The lineups really didn't look too bad on the paper as they were in reality (a sum of factors). Looking at the roster it was a lot easier decision to try make a three scoring lines due to the pure depth. Sure, Armia may have been the only clear shoot first guy, but I wouldn't go as far as saying Armia being the only guy to answer the call.



Perhaps you missed or forgot but lets take a look back.
Now if you'd go re-read what I originally proposed:

'Not having Rantanen isn't a disaster but a big loss still.
Laine could use some speed on the other side. What I'd like to see is something like:

Laine - x - Kapanen
Aho - x - Puljujärvi '


Aho is already drafted and a very good liga player who would definately be a very good supporting cast for Puljujärvi especially since they already have history together. Throw in a two way center and you have a line there that isn't too inexperienced.

Kapanen has two WJCs under belt and possesses natural skill. We can hope and pray he's learned from the previous experience of this competition. So far he has managed to prove quite the opposite of being a star on his own. Laine needs space and having seen him play with Puljujärvi (a speedy and skilled winger) it has seem to work in his favor. Resulting into Puljujärvi being overshadowed by Laine in each and every youth tournament up until today when the two have been on the same line. So, as I've said before I'd rather find alternative solution. Couldn't care less if Kapanen gets overshadowed as long as he is able to draw players and create space. For all we know they might even complement each other. Can't even pretend Kapanen hasn't got the experience from pro level by now so that would fit even your own criteria of having someone who's played at higher levels into the mix. So basicly the debate has been:

Laine - x - x
x - x - Kapanen
x - x - Puljujärvi

VS

Laine - x - Kapanen
Aho - x - Puljujärvi

The latter seems more sensible and here's why:

a) Better players get more time on the ice
b) Guys don't have to relay on their own ability too much
c) Splitting the two obvious star forwards to ensure scoring doesn't depend on one line solely
d) It has less unknows (x's) as the team is heavily dependant of the four proven, or should we rather call, proven skill forwards
e) As opposed to giving Kapanen our best center man (to answer your question), we don't have to build anything around him and hope he becomes the supporting piece needed while there's someone capable to do the job in the middle, maybe Nättinen if he is ready

If you disagree, feel free to elaborate futher.

As it looks right now Jalonen doesn't seem to be to keen on the idea of either formation but rather keeping both of the potential next year's top 5 picks together so the dialogue is pretty theoretical anyway.

I agree with you. I see stacking top 6 as better solution than 3 scoring lines as these lines seem very balanced and should take care of the scoring. Mikko Rantanen is a big loss and i see this a better way of coping with it.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
7,028
1,411
Sure, Armia may have been the only clear shoot first guy, but I wouldn't go as far as saying Armia being the only guy to answer the call.
The issue in 2013 was not about not being able to cast other players into sniper roles (after all, it's what the men's NT has been doing for years as well, for obvious reasons) - but the lack of those clear ones. If you have three with some raw finishing ability, setting them up as the go-to-guys of their own lines becomes a far more natural solution.

Aho is already drafted and a very good liga player who would definately be a very good supporting cast for Puljujärvi especially since they already have history together. Throw in a two way center and you have a line there that isn't too inexperienced.
I think your mistake is underestimating some of the guys in our remaining winger selection. The same words that cover Aho could also be used to cover a handful of other candidates as well. While the pickings down the middle are what they are, there still are solid options for supporting winger to both Kapanen and Laine instead of having one playing second fiddle to the other.

By the way, I never took issue with what you said about Kapanen and Laine complementing each other, I took issue with you practically saying me figuring the three-line setup is delusional. I happen to think it's a valid option on the table, but certainly not the only one. Also, I'm fully aware of some of the cons this might bring - like extensive shuffling for a few shifts after we've had special teams on ice - but I still kinda dig it, because I like the idea of the opposition not being able to match us line-for-line for change. In my book, it's one of those things that so often makes us the bridesmaid and rarely the bride. And a big one at that.

And yeah, this is mostly an academical debate, due to the very fact that we have a fair number of other options too (and even if we didn't, you still might see something completely out of left field - coaches are funny like that), but saying this wouldn't work now based on a single past example is a little shortsighted. Especially since the parallels to 2013 are really few and far between. Not to mention the fact that it's the current lineup that creates the odds of your current philosophy being successful, not any given past one.

A simple rule of thumb is however that when you have a meager handful of standout players, you bunch 'em together (something used to great success in 2014, but not in 2013) and when you have a more even selection, the grounds for setting up a more even lineup certainly is there. And in 2016, the selection is very even. Perhaps the totals even out to approximately equal depth when compared to past years (as the age-old NHL video game math goes, 100+80+60 is mostly considered the same as 80+80+80), but since you can't combine the best parts of singular players to create superior ones, that's where said argument ends. You can, however, do what you can with entire lines, or the lineup as a whole.
 
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SoupyFIN

#OneTerritory
Nov 7, 2011
41,382
3,380
If the same Kapanen from last year's WJC shows up, I don't want him anywhere near Puljujärvi/Laine.
 

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