With the SPHL's midwestern presence...

[Big Z Man 1990]

...I think a name change is in order.

What could be a good new name for the league that could also open it up to expand into the Northeastern US (primarily into markets vacated by the ECHL)?

Basically the SPHL is a rehash of what the ECHL used to be, but it only has two teams outside the Southeastern US at present. A name change could open the door to further expansion into more Northern markets but at all costs should avoid westward expansion (save that territory for a revival of the WCHL).

Atlantic Professional Hockey League sounds like a good name for the league if you stick to markets east of the six-state area that runs from North Dakota to Texas.

If you have any ideas for a new name, post here.

Click to read more...

 

[CrazyEddie20]

...I think a name change is in order.

What could be a good new name for the league that could also open it up to expand into the Northeastern US (primarily into markets vacated by the ECHL)?

Basically the SPHL is a rehash of what the ECHL used to be, but it only has two teams outside the Southeastern US at present. A name change could open the door to further expansion into more Northern markets but at all costs should avoid westward expansion (save that territory for a revival of the WCHL).

Atlantic Professional Hockey League sounds like a good name for the league if you stick to markets east of the six-state area that runs from North Dakota to Texas.

If you have any ideas for a new name, post here.

The bulk of the league remains in the south. Evansville is barely above the attendance Mendoza line, and Peoria will jump to a better league as soon as they have a good chance.

This league will be in the south for a long time, but don't bet on it being in the midwest for a long time.

 

[kyfry]

Atlantic Professional Hockey League sounds like a good name for the league if you stick to markets east of the six-state area that runs from North Dakota to Texas.

Because when you think of the Atlantic the first place that comes to mind is Peoria, Illinois

 

[SemireliableSource]

You may feel a name change is in order but the league has spent over 10 years building the brand of the SPHL name. Just like the ECHL has dumped time into being the ECHL and won't change, the SPHL won't change.

 

[Nightsquad]

The bulk of the league remains in the south. Evansville is barely above the attendance Mendoza line, and Peoria will jump to a better league as soon as they have a good chance.

This league will be in the south for a long time, but don't bet on it being in the midwest for a long time.

Mendoza line lol, that is a reference in baseball. Attendance has not a thing to do with attendance. It references to an individual's hitting ability lol. Attendance can be less then average in a particular league but which doesn't paint picture of advertising revenue, sponsorship revenue, lease terms. There always has to be a team which draws last, that's a reality, it doesn't always paint a picture of sustainability. Next season in the AHL both Utica and Binghamton will likely be the two bottom teams in attendance, does that mean they are not able to operate? No, there model is designed for sustainable operations among the lowest capable draws in the American leagje.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Mendoza line lol, that is a reference in baseball. Attendance has not a thing to do with attendance. It references to an individual's hitting ability lol. Attendance can be less then average in a particular league but which doesn't paint picture of advertising revenue, sponsorship revenue, lease terms. There always has to be a team which draws last, that's a reality, it doesn't always paint a picture of sustainability. Next season in the AHL both Utica and Binghamton will likely be the two bottom teams in attendance, does that mean they are not able to operate? No, there model is designed for sustainable operations among the lowest capable draws in the American leagje.

You really think I didn't know I was using a baseball term as an analogy? Also, it's a reference to the statistical line upon which a player's batting is either competent or incompetent to sustain him as a Major League player.

At every level, there's a line where costs outrun revenue. It's not the same in every market. But teams that draw less than 2,500 per game generally are losing six figures per season, and teams that are drawing under 2,000 are losing multiples of that.

Attendance isn't the entire financial game, but it's a big piece of it. Considering that we know from prior history that there were onerous financial terms on the ECHL Icemen's lease, I can't imagine the Thunderbolts are doing well pulling in exactly 33 more fans per game, on average, than Columbus, whose franchise suspended operations after this past season.

Utica and Binghamton may be able to operate, but that doesn't mean they're making money. Vancouver is willing to pour money into Utica because it needs to develop prospects somewhere. The Senators lost money in Binghamton, and so will the Devils.

Evansville's ECHL team was paying $650,000 per year to lease the Ford Center, according to Riggsy in one article. Maybe the Thunderbolts' lease is a bit cheaper, maybe it isn't. But a team that is posting attendance figures in the 2,200s is usually drawing a paid crowd somewhere between 1,200 and 1,700. In most leagues, that's not enough to provide adequate ticket revenue, nor is it enough eyeballs to sell corporate sponsorships.

But please, tell me how my analogy is stupid again.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Wish the league would expand up north mentioning the old ECHal feel. I think if you could have an alternative coast option it'd be good. Go for the markets that really can't sustain ECHL these days.

 

[royals119]

You really think I didn't know I was using a baseball term as an analogy? Also, it's a reference to the statistical line upon which a player's batting is either competent or incompetent to sustain him as a Major League player.

At every level, there's a line where costs outrun revenue. It's not the same in every market. But teams that draw less than 2,500 per game generally are losing six figures per season, and teams that are drawing under 2,000 are losing multiples of that.

Attendance isn't the entire financial game, but it's a big piece of it. Considering that we know from prior history that there were onerous financial terms on the ECHL Icemen's lease, I can't imagine the Thunderbolts are doing well pulling in exactly 33 more fans per game, on average, than Columbus, whose franchise suspended operations after this past season.

Utica and Binghamton may be able to operate, but that doesn't mean they're making money. Vancouver is willing to pour money into Utica because it needs to develop prospects somewhere. The Senators lost money in Binghamton, and so will the Devils.

Evansville's ECHL team was paying $650,000 per year to lease the Ford Center, according to Riggsy in one article. Maybe the Thunderbolts' lease is a bit cheaper, maybe it isn't. But a team that is posting attendance figures in the 2,200s is usually drawing a paid crowd somewhere between 1,200 and 1,700. In most leagues, that's not enough to provide adequate ticket revenue, nor is it enough eyeballs to sell corporate sponsorships.

But please, tell me how my analogy is stupid again.

I agree that Mendoza line is a perfectly acceptable useage. Yes, it came from baseball batting average, but people use it to denote an acceptable level of performance relative to a statistical benchmark in other contexts now.

AFAIK the new Evansville time is owned and operated by the company that operates the arena. I think they put some figure head in charge, but they bought the franchise themselves. I'm sure the lease terms aren't onerous if they are leasing to themselves. All they need is enough income from tickets, sponsors, parking, concessions, promotions, merchandise, and whatever government subsidy they get for operating the building to cover their costs and they are happy. Pretty low bar when you are keeping all the income.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

But a team that is posting attendance figures in the 2,200s is usually drawing a paid crowd somewhere between 1,200 and 1,700.

Is it fair for me to infer from this post that your experience shows that most minor league hockey teams paid attendance is roughly 50%-67% of the announced figures or does this just apply to teams which draw poorly?

Thanks in advance.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Is it fair for me to infer from this post that your experience shows that most minor league hockey teams paid attendance is roughly 50%-67% of the announced figures or does this just apply to teams which draw poorly?

Thanks in advance.

I'd say it's a sliding scale. Teams that draw on the lower end often give out more comped tickets, which means that fewer of the tickets out (meaning "tickets distributed," which is what the announced attendance usually is) were actually purchased.

But yeah, half to two-thirds of tickets out being comps at bottom feeders is accurate. It creates a self-perpetuating problem, too, because the market believes that game tickets are worthless because there are so many free tickets out there to be had.

 

[Psuedo Omega]

Utica and Binghamton may be able to operate, but that doesn't mean they're making money. Vancouver is willing to pour money into Utica because it needs to develop prospects somewhere. The Senators lost money in Binghamton, and so will the Devils.

I understand your point, but Binghamton is a bad example.

The Senators made money in Binghamton. Barring any drastic changes to the lease agreement, the Devils will too.

 

[Nightsquad]

I understand your point, but Binghamton is a bad example.

The Senators made money in Binghamton. Barring any drastic changes to the lease agreement, the Devils will too.

The Devils already made their money, the group in Binghamton pays the Devils around 3 million. Now the group in Binghamton had to hope they can make up that revenue in ticket sales, merchandising, advertising revenue, and other sources to cover the annual operating expenses and salaries. The Devils in Binghamton will need to average close to 4000 per game just to keep heads at waters surface. The Senators are getting a better deal in Belleville that's why they are leaving. There are also the intangible behind the scene infrastructure they are getting. Facilities in places like Binghamton and Utica are adequate for semi pro hockey but not state of the art up to where the parent NIL teams would like.

A northern version of the SPHL would be cool for places like Binghamton, Elmira, Glens Falls, Utica, Manchester, Burlington, Danbury, Albany, or other vacated markets but most of the entitled fans up that way want an AHL or DI college team that's wins. They don't know how to appreciate a solid hometown sustainable minor pro league which is entertaining and competitive. Guys are playing for the city, the team, and battling hard first and foremost. They aren't paying a canned system of their parent club hoping to get a call up. Make no mistake, AHL clubs when NHL club owned are not playing to win every regular season game for the fans in Rochester, Albany, or Hartford etc. SPHL players and coaches are playing to win their games at their respective skill levels.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

AFAIK the new Evansville time is owned and operated by the company that operates the arena. I think they put some figure head in charge, but they bought the franchise themselves. I'm sure the lease terms aren't onerous if they are leasing to themselves. All they need is enough income from tickets, sponsors, parking, concessions, promotions, merchandise, and whatever government subsidy they get for operating the building to cover their costs and they are happy. Pretty low bar when you are keeping all the income.

There's no government subsidy. The company almost certainly pays the city for the rights to operate the arena. They get additional revenue from booking other events, parking, concessions, and merchandise, but they run into significant additional expenses in staffing, ticketing, purchasing merchandise and concessions in advance, the significant costs of maintaining both the arena and the rink.

 

[HexHcokey]

As someone who is a fan of the Peoria Rivermen, I will say that I don't see us being in the SPHL in 5 years. I believe we will be in the ECHL as early as 2018-19 with the Blackhawks or Blues. So any belief that the SPHL will change their league name is next to impossible. In all honesty a lot of SPHL fans that aren't from Peoria or Evansville DON'T like the fact their are Northern teams coming into the league. And like what was mentioned before, the ECHL didn't change their name when they started expanding westward (although they did change it to just the letters).

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I'd say it's a sliding scale. Teams that draw on the lower end often give out more comped tickets, which means that fewer of the tickets out (meaning "tickets distributed," which is what the announced attendance usually is) were actually purchased.

But yeah, half to two-thirds of tickets out being comps at bottom feeders is accurate. It creates a self-perpetuating problem, too, because the market believes that game tickets are worthless because there are so many free tickets out there to be had.

So true. Thanks for your input on this site.

You're probably aware of this as it relates to the Cincinnati market, but I'll briefly describe what happened.

When the Cyclones (who were in the now defunct IHL) were joined in the market by the AHL Cincinnati Mighty Ducks, the war between the franchises was fierce and ultimately ended up claiming both teams.

By the time the ECHL Cyclones went into suspension after the 2003-04 season and the Ducks suspended operations after the following season, tickets had been given away so freely by the Cyclones and Ducks organizations that you could find scalpers with 30 tickets or more at game time and get into the game for $3-5. Tickets had become essentially worthless.

The Cincinnati hockey market was dark in 05-06. The following year the Cincinnati Cyclones of the ECHL returned from suspension under new ownership. The owners decided to stop comping tickets except for players. They knew that the market had become used to not paying for tickets and that this had to stop.

The first season the Cyclones averaged around 1800 per game. Tickets were $12 and $17. The next season's attendance was actually worse in the early season. In mid November the team had a "throwback night" where tickets were priced at $6. Over 6,000 attended. Within a month, the Cyclones reduced all tickets (except glass seats) to $10. Attendance immediately started rising.

Over the years, the Cyclones have increased ticket prices to $17 at the gate and $15 in advance. They found their initial proper price point at $10.Most team owners would have never allowed for pricing that low, but the Cyclones ownership understood that the market for hockey tickets was so damaged by the years of excessive freebies, that a low price point was all that the market would support and that it was absolutely essential that people became accustomed to paying for their tickets again.

The Cyclones comp more now than they have in the past decade, but it's a responsible number. You don't find scalpers with a handful of tickets that they are giving away outside the box office.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

So true. Thanks for your input on this site.

You're probably aware of this as it relates to the Cincinnati market, but I'll briefly describe what happened.

When the Cyclones (who were in the now defunct IHL) were joined in the market by the AHL Cincinnati Mighty Ducks, the war between the franchises was fierce and ultimately ended up claiming both teams.

By the time the ECHL Cyclones went into suspension after the 2003-04 season and the Ducks suspended operations after the following season, tickets had been given away so freely by the Cyclones and Ducks organizations that you could find scalpers with 30 tickets or more at game time and get into the game for $3-5. Tickets had become essentially worthless.

The Cincinnati hockey market was dark in 05-06. The following year the Cincinnati Cyclones of the ECHL returned from suspension under new ownership. The owners decided to stop comping tickets except for players. They knew that the market had become used to not paying for tickets and that this had to stop.

The first season the Cyclones averaged around 1800 per game. Tickets were $12 and $17. The next season's attendance was actually worse in the early season. In mid November the team had a "throwback night" where tickets were priced at $6. Over 6,000 attended. Within a month, the Cyclones reduced all tickets (except glass seats) to $10. Attendance immediately started rising.

Over the years, the Cyclones have increased ticket prices to $17 at the gate and $15 in advance. They found their initial proper price point at $10.Most team owners would have never allowed for pricing that low, but the Cyclones ownership understood that the market for hockey tickets was so damaged by the years of excessive freebies, that a low price point was all that the market would support and that it was absolutely essential that people became accustomed to paying for their tickets again.

The Cyclones comp more now than they have in the past decade, but it's a responsible number. You don't find scalpers with a handful of tickets that they are giving away outside the box office.

I was at several Cyclones games that first season, 06-07, including a few with three-digit attendance figures. I do remember being told that the team was reporting the actual "ticket drop count," meaning the number of tickets used, rather than tickets out, as the attendance figure that year.

The best memory from that season was a thirsty thursday where they had a chugging race with a can of beer on each blue line and the red line. The contestants had to chug each beer and then shoot a puck into the net. The "winner" went to retrieve his puck and "reverse drank" all that PBR onto the goal crease. He picked the puck up out of the slightly-used beer, wiped it on his pants, and held it up with pride for the hundreds in attendance to see. I don't think I've ever laughed so hard at an intermission promotion.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I was at several Cyclones games that first season, 06-07, including a few with three-digit attendance figures. I do remember being told that the team was reporting the actual "ticket drop count," meaning the number of tickets used, rather than tickets out, as the attendance figure that year.

The best memory from that season was a thirsty thursday where they had a chugging race with a can of beer on each blue line and the red line. The contestants had to chug each beer and then shoot a puck into the net. The "winner" went to retrieve his puck and "reverse drank" all that PBR onto the goal crease. He picked the puck up out of the slightly-used beer, wiped it on his pants, and held it up with pride for the hundreds in attendance to see. I don't think I've ever laughed so hard at an intermission promotion.

They still can be pretty creative with some of their between period stuff. They've got the two person race of running (and falling) in the gigantic clear plastic balls and the two people dressed in giant suma wrestler costumes which crack me up.

The Cyclones still use drop counts. I can usually estimate announced attendance within a 100 or so.

The midweek promotions have been a huge part of the Cyclones success. Every weekday game is a beer promo-dollar 12oz cans or $2 24 ouncers. "Tall Tuesdays", "Wet Wednesdays", and the same "Thirsty Thursdays" that you recall. The Cyclones attract a college and young working professional crowd for these games. Attendance ranges from 1200-3000.

In the absence of the low beer prices and the between periods stuff, the Cyclones would still be getting those 3 digit midweek "crowds". I like to say that a Cyclones midweek game is a bar with a $15 cover charge cleverly disguised as a hockey game. The Cyclones management "gets" their product-which is overall entertainment/cheap beer first and hockey a distant second.