With Phaneuff gone, how does the hole get fixed?

[seanlinden]

I guess that depends if you believe Leafs need a top 4 for next year to become competitive or if this can evolve over time to replace Dion.

Kapanen and the future 1st round pick are not replacing Kessel this year either immediately, which follows this same point.

Also removing Dion makes the current team weaker which improves the potential draft position and any scout will tell you a player like Chychrun projects as a future top pairing NHL dman.

So It all comes down to if you're talking Now or in the Future when answering this question.

The Leafs absolutely do need a top 4 next year, simply to insulate the young forwards that will be in the lineup.

We're talking about both now and in the future. We definitely need somebody now, and we most likely need somebody long term, as it's extremely doubtful that Zaitsev has top 2 potential, while Chychurn is too far behind in his development (if that's who we end up with).

 

[Ricky Bobby]

The Leafs absolutely do need a top 4 next year, simply to insulate the young forwards that will be in the lineup.

We're talking about both now and in the future. We definitely need somebody now, and we most likely need somebody long term, as it's extremely doubtful that Zaitsev has top 2 potential, while Chychurn is too far behind in his development (if that's who we end up with).

Leafs are well positioned to take on a complete cap dump with only a year or two left on their deal to gain an asset. I personally don't think Stamkos is coming to Toronto and we'll have lots of cap space and should use it for a Lombardi to gain an asset in Franson type deal.

This team needs a right Dman to build around.

http://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-affiliated-prospects-1.436669

Using Craig Buttons list the following teams have Dmen on the list who are in win-now mode with the age of their cores:

Anahiem: Theodore (LD), Larsson (LD)

Minny: Rielly (LD)

Dallas: Honka (RD), Lindell (LD), Hansson (RD)

Detroit: Saarijavri (RD)

St. Louis: Walman (LD)

Saarijavri is only 18 and I think we need someone further along in their development. I also don't see a fit between us and Detroit.

Dallas has two right D in Honka and Hansson. Honka seems like a prime target who's 20 with two years of AHL experience so he fits our timeline.

Dallas is in win now mode and us taking Lehtonen (2 years @ 5.85 cap hit) in a deal is worth a heck of a lot.

 

[Faltorvo]

Leafs are well positioned to take on a complete cap dump with only a year or two left on their deal to gain an asset. I personally don't think Stamkos is coming to Toronto and we'll have lots of cap space and should use it for a Lombardi to gain an asset in Franson type deal.

This team needs a right Dman to build around.

http://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-affiliated-prospects-1.436669

Using Craig Buttons list the following teams have Dmen on the list who are in win-now mode with the age of their cores:

Anahiem: Theodore (LD), Larsson (LD)

Minny: Rielly (LD)

Dallas: Honka (RD), Lindell (LD), Hansson (RD)

Detroit: Saarijavri (RD)

St. Louis: Walman (LD)

Saarijavri is only 18 and I think we need someone further along in their development. I also don't see a fit between us and Detroit.

Dallas has two right D in Honka and Hansson. Honka seems like a prime target who's 20 with two years of AHL experience so he fits our timeline.

Dallas is in win now mode and us taking Lehtonen (2 years @ 5.85 cap hit) in a deal is worth a heck of a lot.

Something tells me that kind of deal ain't happening till Stammer is off the table.

 

[seanlinden]

Leafs are well positioned to take on a complete cap dump with only a year or two left on their deal to gain an asset. I personally don't think Stamkos is coming to Toronto and we'll have lots of cap space and should use it for a Lombardi to gain an asset in Franson type deal.

This team needs a right Dman to build around.

http://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-affiliated-prospects-1.436669

Using Craig Buttons list the following teams have Dmen on the list who are in win-now mode with the age of their cores:

Anahiem: Theodore (LD), Larsson (LD)

Minny: Rielly (LD)

Dallas: Honka (RD), Lindell (LD), Hansson (RD)

Detroit: Saarijavri (RD)

St. Louis: Walman (LD)

Saarijavri is only 18 and I think we need someone further along in their development. I also don't see a fit between us and Detroit.

Dallas has two right D in Honka and Hansson. Honka seems like a prime target who's 20 with two years of AHL experience so he fits our timeline.

Dallas is in win now mode and us taking Lehtonen (2 years @ 5.85 cap hit) in a deal is worth a heck of a lot.

Yeah, I'm less concerned about what project we find to theoretically fill that hole in 5 years.

The far greater question is -- who's going to play that role come October?

 

[yubbers]

Honestly, part of me actually wonders if we went a step too far in trading Dion. I know it's been 2 games, but its painfully clear this team's leadership structure going forward is going to be ridiculously fragile, nevermind the glaring hole in the defense that is going to have to be covered by cheap vet signings and rookies from here on out.

In the context of a rebuild, getting Dion's contract off the books was the right move, but I think we definatly lost something going forward in terms of both leadership and as a position player, despite what Dion's haters will tell you. The real test is how the younger players will react to this change, lets see who of Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri or JVR steps up when given the chance.

We're last in the league. It literally can't get worse

 

[HamiltonNHL]

[/B]
Something tells me that kind of deal ain't happening till Stammer is off the table.

First off, if Stammer is coming .... then Stammer and the Leafs have already made an unofficial deal .... we just dont know it yet. So Leaf's brass know if Stammer is coming.

Leafs are well positioned to take on a complete cap dump with only a year or two left on their deal to gain an asset.
Dallas has two right D in Honka and Hansson. Honka seems like a prime target who's 20 with two years of AHL experience so he fits our timeline.

Dallas is in win now mode and us taking Lehtonen (2 years @ 5.85 cap hit) in a deal is worth a heck of a lot.

Interesting.
I like your thinking.

 

[Faltorvo]

First off, if Stammer is coming .... then Stammer and the Leafs have already made an unofficial deal .... we just dont know it yet. So Leaf's brass know if Stammer is coming.



Interesting.
I like your thinking.

ummmmmmmm WUT????????

you can't be seriously suggesting that we have in any possible way been tampering

can you imagine the size of the fines and possible lost picks penalties?

not in a millions years brother, not with this management staff

 

[bunjay]

How do we fill the hole? If we're now being honest about what that hole actually is: probably very easily.

Phaneuf is a ~$4M defenseman getting paid ~50% more than his on-ice abilities are worth, with no discernible "leadership qualities" or "intangibles" or whatever buzzword you prefer. There is no shortage of defenseman in that price-range, many of whom are at a more desirable point on their career-arc.

Phaneuf is slow both mentally and physically. The Leafs should have no problem finding a second pairing guy who is one or the other, but not both. And they won't have to give out a 6+ year contract to get him.

If the question is really "how will the Leafs find another defenseman who will be asked to play a role he's not capable of because of the desperation contract that got thrown at him" the answer should be, obviously, they won't. We hope. Because the Leafs how have a management group that isn't going to base their entire plan for the team on a series of high-stakes gambles.

 

[ZINFINITY16]

ummmmmmmm WUT????????

you can't be seriously suggesting that we have in any possible way been tampering

can you imagine the size of the fines and possible lost picks penalties?

not in a millions years brother, not with this management staff

I don't necessarily agree that they have an unofficial deal, but I do think the Leafs management staff one way or another have a general idea whether or not Stamkos will be coming here..

 

[hockeyes]

I don't necessarily agree that they have an unofficial deal, but I do think the Leafs management staff one way or another have a general idea whether or not Stamkos will be coming here..

You are right, I am sure a "friend of a friend" has passed along some information, it's naive to think otherwise. The guys running teams get by on their connections not by operating in a total vacuum.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

The Leafs absolutely do need a top 4 next year, simply to insulate the young forwards that will be in the lineup.

We're talking about both now and in the future. We definitely need somebody now, and we most likely need somebody long term, as it's extremely doubtful that Zaitsev has top 2 potential, while Chychurn is too far behind in his development (if that's who we end up with).

More likely we get a filler stop gap type with a short term contract that we play higher up in the lineup that what he truly is. Kinda like we did with Hunwick who's in our top 4 but is really more of a 3rd pairing guy on a good team.

Think bringing back Polak or signing someone like Grossman or Gunnarson. All these guys are UFAs.

Overpaid Dmen with only 1 or 2 years left on their deals are another option: Think names like Wideman, Emelin, Seidenberg, Carle, Fayne, Smid.

We have a lot of holes and most of them won't be fixed this summer. This team is going to be brutal next year.

 

[TheProspector]

Phaneuf's production was that of a low end 1st pair, or high end 2 pair defenceman; but his possession and defensive statistics are bottom pair quality. Like one of the worst defencemen in the league. 4th last in puck retrievals.

I'm going to use the Mess phrase here: the Leafs will get better on the blueline via addition from subtraction. I think the net result will be our GF will go down a bit, but our GA will go down more.

 

[seanlinden]

More likely we get a filler stop gap type with a short term contract that we play higher up in the lineup that what he truly is. Kinda like we did with Hunwick who's in our top 4 but is really more of a 3rd pairing guy on a good team.

Think bringing back Polak or signing someone like Grossman or Gunnarson. All these guys are UFAs.

Overpaid Dmen with only 1 or 2 years left on their deals are another option: Think names like Wideman, Emelin, Seidenberg, Carle, Fayne, Smid.

We have a lot of holes and most of them won't be fixed this summer. This team is going to be brutal next year.

Guys like Grossman or Gunnarsson are nowhere near good enough to be able to help insulate the young forwards we'll have in the lineup next year.

Yeah, we've got a lot of holes right now. Something like scoring depth can be filled by youth and free agents -- goals will certainly have to be a "by committee" approach. Goaltending -- maybe it's Reimer, maybe somebody else. Defence -- there's simply nobody in the system or free agency who fits the bill. The Leafs are going to have to get aggressive in trade.

 

[tokyoite]

Hedman has a concussion history

 

[WilliamNylander]

Phaneuf's production was that of a low end 1st pair, or high end 2 pair defenceman; but his possession and defensive statistics are bottom pair quality. Like one of the worst defencemen in the league. 4th last in puck retrievals.

I'm going to use the Mess phrase here: the Leafs will get better on the blueline via addition from subtraction. I think the net result will be our GF will go down a bit, but our GA will go down more.

This is a nice post.

Our GF will rebound next year with more talent in the lineup as well.

 

[91Kadri91*]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/an-analytical-look-at-the-dion-phaneuf-trade/

 

[WilliamNylander]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/an-analytical-look-at-the-dion-phaneuf-trade/

"over the last four seasons, only two of 175 defencemen who played over 2,000 minutes at 5-vs-5 hockey had a worse defensive impact on their linemates than Phaneuf."

I knew he was getting old but wow...

 

[MJ65]

Keep on drafting and hopefully some one is going to pan out

 

[Funk21]

It truly depends on what happens in the offseason or at the trade deadline.

If Stamkos signs here and we get a top three pick then I explore Shattenkirk from the blues if available or perhaps Yandle as a free agent. As i really only know him for his offence presence not sure how good his D is or if he can play the right side.

Since we are supposedly getting Zaitsev I'm okay with him on our second pairing with Gardiner.

Third pairing I'm okay with giving Cowen/Hunwick a look on the left and Corrado a shot on the right. Kids can be brought up if Cowen or Hunwick get traded.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

We're last in the league. It literally can't get worse

Ya, besides it helped the tank. Blow it up good, blow it up real good. LOL.

 

[Macallan18]

Phaneuf's production was that of a low end 1st pair, or high end 2 pair defenceman; but his possession and defensive statistics are bottom pair quality. Like one of the worst defencemen in the league. 4th last in puck retrievals.

I'm going to use the Mess phrase here: the Leafs will get better on the blueline via addition from subtraction. I think the net result will be our GF will go down a bit, but our GA will go down more.

This is bang on, surprised more people don't see this. Love the gif's already being made of Phaneuf in an Ottawa uniform being a pylon or falling.
This trade may have been the most important move in the year (after the brilliant draft).

 

[MJ65]

What hole Phaneuff have left? we got a decent prospect and a 2nd round pick

I would rather sign a stay at home type D this summer

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Phaneuf's production was that of a low end 1st pair, or high end 2 pair defenceman; but his possession and defensive statistics are bottom pair quality. Like one of the worst defencemen in the league. 4th last in puck retrievals.

I'm going to use the Mess phrase here: the Leafs will get better on the blueline via addition from subtraction. I think the net result will be our GF will go down a bit, but our GA will go down more.

I think DP is only a #4 on the Senators blueline, and they were desperate for another decent top four defender. That's not saying much. They had to be both desperate and not particularly concerned about the cap to have traded for Phaneuf, a decision they may regret in the future.

 

[Tigerarmy]

Here's the problem -- there is anyone in the system with even a remote chance of "growing into that role". Most of the Leafs defensive prospects project as bottom pair guys, with possible top 4 upside... nobody who appears that they could develop into a top pair shutdown guy.

So, realistically, they're going to have to look outside the organization. I guess the hope is, with the cap staying flat, perhaps that represents an opportunity to acquire that player either through trade or free agency. Their group up front should be fine, even without Stamkos.

As for why they did it, I suspect, they simply looked at the bodies they have, and said "we want Rielly to anchor the top pair, we want Gardiner to anchor the 2nd pair, and we don't like Dion Phaneuf at $7m on either of them". So, they knew he needed to be replaced.

Was it premature? Yes. But, I suspect they looked at it as follows. If, one year from today, they were offered the trade of Lindberg & a 2nd in the upcoming draft for Dion Phaneuf, no retention, would they take it? The answer was probably, and given that, it wasn't worth the risk of that deal evaporating in 1 year's time. Of course something to consider in that deal, is that they moved Phaneuf, took back a bunch of bad contracts, but assuming no subsequent moves, after the 16-17 season, the only remnants they'll be left with are Tobias Lindberg, a 2nd round pick, and the rights to Jared Cowen. It's how the Kessel deal should have gone. Take on some short term pain... be left with a couple of assets long term.

Phaneuf wasn't a top pairing guy either, shouldn't have been. He's always been a 3/4 d man. Dermott or Neilsen I'm hoping will be a top 4 in a few years. Hunter will draft atleast one defenseman with top 4 upside. I guarantee it

 

[sommervr]

Phaneuf should have been gone right after the Boston series.