Post-Game Talk: Winnipeg @ Washington | 1/18/22 | 7:00p ET

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Vitek in net.

Hathaway was garbage against Vancouver and cost them goals with multiple dumb penalties and McMichael was one of their best players so it only makes sense that Hathaway is promoted to the top line and McMike gets demoted. That third line is going to get 8-9 minutes at 5-on-5, max.

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[TJHKY]

 

[Calicaps]

Vitek in net.

Hathaway was garbage against Vancouver and cost them goals with multiple dumb penalties and McMichael was one of their best players so it only makes sense that Hathaway is promoted to the top line and McMike gets demoted. That third line is going to get 8-9 minutes at 5-on-5, max.

I agree that Hath did nothing to earn a bump. But here's my question, while CMM was hardly the biggest problem on Sunday, what precisely did he to do be "one of their best players"? Per NHL he had 1 SOG and 1 giveaway in 10 minutes and was otherwise null. I am fine giving him more icetime, but let's not overstate his impact.

 

[SherVaughn30]

I call bullshit on this stat! He's still a rebound machine against average to good shooting teams. This stat is misleading as the Caps are 2nd in the league in shots allowed per game at 28.2. If you are giving up less shots than most teams, that could equate to less rebounds given up!

 

[SherVaughn30]

I agree that Hath did nothing to earn a bump. But here's my question, while CMM was hardly the biggest problem on Sunday, what precisely did he to do be "one of their best players"? Per NHL he had 1 SOG and 1 giveaway in 10 minutes and was otherwise null. I am fine giving him more icetime, but let's not overstate his impact.

And the fact he's still a 20 year old rookie that's in the right direction playing the right way in limited minutes, but lacks the finishing touch to be playing on a 1st line. CMM would get overwhelmed playing against top players, which would negate the 1st line.

 

[g00n]

Hahaha

VV sucks at rebounds!
*best in NHL per stats*
STATS LIE!



Didn't we talk about that months ago? That VV's main problem has been the PK?

 

[SherVaughn30]

If I'm the Jets, I would shoot a lot at his pads for rebounds and also shoot high because his butterfly technique makes him small and he uses the technique in wrong situations. Isles struggle to score goals, Jets not so much!

 

[SherVaughn30]

Hahaha

VV sucks at rebounds!
*best in NHL per stats*
STATS LIE!



Didn't we talk about that months ago? That VV's main problem has been the PK?

Phoenix Copley had the same problem with bad rebound control and tracking shots. Sound familiar? Backups can be a dime a dozen. Give me Fucale, allow him to get comfortable at the NHL speed of things and work on his glove positioning(I still think VV is worse gloving pucks), as he has all the other mechanics that VV looks so challenged with at times.

 

[Neil Racki]

Jets guys have a funny cool Ovi centric gameday thread ...

 

[twabby]

Vitek in net.

Hathaway was garbage against Vancouver and cost them goals with multiple dumb penalties and McMichael was one of their best players so it only makes sense that Hathaway is promoted to the top line and McMike gets demoted. That third line is going to get 8-9 minutes at 5-on-5, max.

I see a whole lot of double shifting for guys like Ovechkin, Wilson, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, and Eller.

Winnipeg isn't very good so it might even work out, but ugh the lineup doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

I agree that Hath did nothing to earn a bump. But here's my question, while CMM was hardly the biggest problem on Sunday, what precisely did he to do be "one of their best players"? Per NHL he had 1 SOG and 1 giveaway in 10 minutes and was otherwise null. I am fine giving him more icetime, but let's not overstate his impact.

CMM’s ranks among Caps forwards against Vancouver at even strength:

Individual Expected Goals: 4th
Individual High Danger Chances: 2nd
Individual Shooting Attempts: 2nd
CF%: 2nd
SF%: 1st
HDCF%: 1st
XGF%: 2nd
TOI: 9/12

His hockey sense is off the charts for someone his age and he makes the right play almost every time. He’s not flashy but he’s a terrific hockey player who knows where to be and what to do with the puck and it’s really dumb he’s not being used better, especially with all of the injuries. If they were at full health I’d chalk it up to him being stuck behind a stacked forward roster but this infatuation with worse players for some reason is frustrating to watch and damaging to the team.

There’s really no valid reason for it any more, and I don’t want to hear that Lavi trusts guys like HDH more and wants to match them against the other team’s best players. They frankly suck at that role and that, along with terrible goaltending, is a big reason they lead the league in blown leads. If Laviolette and his staff can’t figure out a way to get him more ice time that’s on them and not a reflection of McMike’s play which has been among the best in the NHL across all rookies. If Lavi used him more and his puck luck was a bit better he’d be getting serious Calder consideration.

 

[Marshall]

You know, if the Caps decide to not suck tonight, I'd be fine with that.

 

[Rayquaza64]

I have several complaints about the lineup therefore we are getting a 7-0 win with an eller hatty

 

[Neil Racki]

I don’t want to hear that Lavi trusts guys like HDH more and wants to match them against the other team’s best players.

CMM is a smart player

If not the HDH line, then who? I think these 3 get shit on more than they should. When our roster is healthy and they are the 4rh line, theyre one of the better 4th lines in the league.

 

[Rayquaza64]

Genuine question: what other top contending team relies on their fourth line to matchup with opposing teams' first lines? If our other lines cant be trusted at all to deal with opposing team's top six lines then that is a major issue

 

[Calicaps]

CMM’s ranks among Caps forwards against Vancouver at even strength:

Individual Expected Goals: 4th
Individual High Danger Chances: 2nd
Individual Shooting Attempts: 2nd
CF%: 2nd
SF%: 1st
HDCF%: 1st
XGF%: 2nd
TOI: 9/12

His hockey sense is off the charts for someone his age and he makes the right play almost every time. He’s not flashy but he’s a terrific hockey player who knows where to be and what to do with the puck and it’s really dumb he’s not being used better, especially with all of the injuries. If they were at full health I’d chalk it up to him being stuck behind a stacked forward roster but this infatuation with worse players for some reason is frustrating to watch and damaging to the team.

There’s really no valid reason for it any more, and I don’t want to hear that Lavi trusts guys like HDH more and wants to match them against the other team’s best players. They frankly suck at that role and that, along with terrible goaltending, is a big reason they lead the league in blown leads. If Laviolette and his staff can’t figure out a way to get him more ice time that’s on them and not a reflection of McMike’s play which has been among the best in the NHL across all rookies. If Lavi used him more and his puck luck was a bit better he’d be getting serious Calder consideration.

First off, the "Lavi trusts guy X or Y" isn't my argument, never has been. But I saw you reject this exact same argument when twabby and others raised it in defense of Kuzy last year. So why is it valid for McMike? As I said, I'd be fine with giving him more ice to see if he can handle it, but I don't buy the argument that his fancies are so great, so we should ignore actual results.

 

[Calicaps]

Genuine question: what other top contending team relies on their fourth line to matchup with opposing teams' first lines? If our other lines cant be trusted at all to deal with opposing team's top six lines then that is a major issue

It is a major issue. We are short on defensively strong forwards who can keep up with top offensive players.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

CMM’s ranks among Caps forwards against Vancouver at even strength:

Individual Expected Goals: 4th
Individual High Danger Chances: 2nd
Individual Shooting Attempts: 2nd
CF%: 2nd
SF%: 1st
HDCF%: 1st
XGF%: 2nd
TOI: 9/12

His hockey sense is off the charts for someone his age and he makes the right play almost every time. He’s not flashy but he’s a terrific hockey player who knows where to be and what to do with the puck and it’s really dumb he’s not being used better, especially with all of the injuries. If they were at full health I’d chalk it up to him being stuck behind a stacked forward roster but this infatuation with worse players for some reason is frustrating to watch and damaging to the team.

There’s really no valid reason for it any more, and I don’t want to hear that Lavi trusts guys like HDH more and wants to match them against the other team’s best players. They frankly suck at that role and that, along with terrible goaltending, is a big reason they lead the league in blown leads. If Laviolette and his staff can’t figure out a way to get him more ice time that’s on them and not a reflection of McMike’s play which has been among the best in the NHL across all rookies. If Lavi used him more and his puck luck was a bit better he’d be getting serious Calder consideration.

solid position with stats…..however are those ALL the important stats? How’s he looking defensively? You would think he’d have some flashes of real and impressive (even if limited) production…

Not the first time I’m seeing positive stats for the guy, but the eye test says something is amiss.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

CMM is a smart player

If not the HDH line, then who? I think these 3 get shit on more than they should. When our roster is healthy and they are the 4rh line, theyre one of the better 4th lines in the league.

I’m not saying they’re not a great 4th line, I am saying they are playing too much right now and they haven’t earned it. There’s no reason they should be playing the most minutes as a line combination at 5-on-5.

@Calicaps big difference in grading your Conn Smythe candidate 1C with one of the highest cap hits and a rookie. One was paid to produce, one is earning his stripes. One got busted for drugs and multiple times breaking rules and one didn’t.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

solid position with stats…..however are those ALL the important stats? How’s he looking defensively? You would think he’d have some flashes of real and impressive (even if limited) production…

Not the first time I’m seeing positive stats for the guy, but the eye test says something is amiss.

What are you defining as defensive stats? The Caps have the puck more, get more chances, have better chances, and play defense less with CMM on the ice. There’s no drop off with him when it comes to slot chances or rush chances allowed. Maybe @twabby can find one of those with/without heat maps for added color but he’s a good player — if we acquired someone with his metrics at the TDL I think we’d all be really excited.

I think what’s happening is Lavi knows the goalies are shit so he plays guys he thinks are more responsible and less likely to concede a goal. No issues with that line of thinking except it keeps not working so I’d hope there would be changes to try something new.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

What are you defining as defensive stats? The Caps have the puck more, get more chances, have better chances, and play defense less with CMM on the ice. There’s no drop off with him when it comes to slot chances or rush chances allowed. Maybe @twabby can find one of those with/without heat maps for added color but he’s a good player — if we acquired someone with his metrics at the TDL I think we’d all be really excited.

that’s what I was thinking of….

so what production do you think they get if they gave him 18 mins a night?

I feel like he’s missing something…..incomplete player today IMO. Can’t put my finger on it…..more cumulative than any one thing he does poorly or needs to improve on.


As we saw with Kuzy, promising stats but low production doesn’t win you much, although the lower cap hit takes away the sting.

 

[Calicaps]

I’m not saying they’re not a great 4th line, I am saying they are playing too much right now and they haven’t earned it. There’s no reason they should be playing the most minutes as a line combination at 5-on-5.

@Calicaps big difference in grading your Conn Smythe candidate 1C with one of the highest cap hits and a rookie. One was paid to produce, one is earning his stripes. One got busted for drugs and multiple times breaking rules and one didn’t.

Yes and no. Obviously the expectations for Kuzy are (and should be) higher but results still matter. If all CMM is bringing are the stats you shared, what good does that do in the end? No points, barely any shots generated, etc. He doesn't have to bring as much as Kuzy but to get more responsibility he probably does need to bring more than that. At the risk of sounding like Barry Trotz, the NHl isn't a development league. If he can't meaningfully contribute to team results the nice fancy stats don't really matter.

 

[twabby]

What are you defining as defensive stats? The Caps have the puck more, get more chances, have better chances, and play defense less with CMM on the ice. There’s no drop off with him when it comes to slot chances or rush chances allowed. Maybe @twabby can find one of those with/without heat maps for added color but he’s a good player — if we acquired someone with his metrics at the TDL I think we’d all be really excited.

I think what’s happening is Lavi knows the goalies are shit so he plays guys he thinks are more responsible and less likely to concede a goal. No issues with that line of thinking except it keeps not working so I’d hope there would be changes to try something new.

Spoiler: McMichael WOWYs

WOWYs are more "what happens when a player is on the ice" vs. "how a player impacts the team when he is on the ice", but there's nothing here to suggest McMichael is a liability defensively. The team generates chances much better when he is on the ice than off, and the team suppresses chances a little better when he is on the ice when he is off.

The thing that bothers me is that early 20s is the time when players improve the most. But if he's not getting ice time to work on things, how is he expected to improve? How is it beneficial for the team to keep his minutes limited and play low ceiling players like Hagelin so much more? How does that improve the team in the postseason?

McMichael's situation actually reminds me a bit of Kuznetsov in his rookie year. Kuznetsov wasn't anything special during the regular season in terms of production in 14-15, but there were signs he was putting things together. Unlike Laviolette with McMichael, Trotz gave Kuznetsov plenty of TOI to work on things, including on the PP. Perhaps as a result, Kuznetsov was one of their best players in the 14-15 postseason and followed it up with a great 15-16 season.

I don't see Laviolette having the same patience with McMichael as Trotz had with Kuznetsov, and I think that's to the detriment of the team. Why not give McMichael time alongside Ovechkin and Kuznetsov tonight, for instance? What long-term good does having Hathaway up there do?

 

[hockeykicker]

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Where is Carly and Oshie?