Will we ever see consistent 150 pt players again?

[devilsblood]

Is this akin to asking: Will we ever see a Gretzky/Lemieux again?

Not sure how many guys in the history of the league ever put up 150 point season consistently the way those 2 did. And of coarse while they were phenomanal players, how much of their point totals were due in part to the era in which they played?

Crosby came up with the "next one" label, and though currently the pretty unanimous best player going, no one is putting him near the Gretzky-Mario level.

McDavid gets the Crosby comparisons but no one is going out on the limb to compare him to "the great one".

Has the game changed too much since that high flying era? Can it ever go back? Is it the goaltending(and the pads that they wear?) And can a transcending talent the likes of those 2 exist in this new world of hockey?

Click to read more...

 

[NC107*]

I don't think we'll see it happen in the near future there have been too many changes over the past 10 to 15 years to let a single player get 150 points. Things change in sports having an effect on records.

 

[tycobb]

I think we will, but no idea when. I don't have the belief that Gretzky, Mario, and Orr are the best to ever play and nobody in the future will touch their scoring abilities.

In baseball It took Williams 20s years to get near Ruth dominance and then Bonds 60 years later (with the help of some substances) to get up to that level.

I have no doubt a new 1st tier HoF will eventually come and dominate.

 

[Roomtemperature]

As a team that's never had a 50 goal scorer or 100 point getter I doubt it with the way the game has done.

Defense is too good, goaltending is too good. Its even more of a team effort to score goals nowadays instead of having just a line that could carry the offense.

 

[tycobb]

Jagr was VERY close to being one during 98-01.

127 PTS on a team that scored 242 goals is very impressive (league average 216). Last season the league average was 225 goals and there were a few teams that scored over 250 goals.

League average rises to ~250 then I think the odds of it happen go up significantly.

 

[JimEIV]

Nope. You will never see that again unless the game is fundamentally changed...the combination of highly refined systems and modern goaltending has made scoring more difficult today than it's ever been in my life time.

 

[devilsblood]

Nope. You will never see that again unless the game is fundamentally changed...the combination of highly refined systems and modern goaltending has made scoring more difficult today than it's ever been in my life time.

But what about a player that is just heads above the rest? Though Lindros could have been that guy given his size and skill but could never stay healthy.

But just a Lebron type athlete who combines high skill with pure physical dominance, and is thus much better then everyone else?

 

[ajdevjet]

consistent ? no I don't think so but I'm sure we will see a player here and there maybe crack 150 someday

 

[Brodeur]

Has the game changed too much since that high flying era? Can it ever go back? Is it the goaltending(and the pads that they wear?) And can a transcending talent the likes of those 2 exist in this new world of hockey?

It's not just the size of the pads, but the technique of goalies is light years of what it was in the 80s. Stumbled upon an old highlight video of Edmonton beating Calgary in a game 7 circa 1991. Oilers won 5-4 it OT and more than half of those goals were cringe worthy by today's standards. And that seems to be my reaction whenever I see highlights from that era.

Mix in the sheer height change of goalies from then to now. It wasn't unusual to see a 5'8 or 5'9 goalie back then. Now, most goalies are 6'2 or taller. Mix that in with better technique and it's a tough environment to score.

Another factor is that leg pads have become much, much lighter than those days. I don't know how much of it is exaggeration, but I've read that the older leg pads could weigh as much as 15 pounds apiece after they soaked in water during a game. Nowadays leg pads are closer to 5 pounds each.

I started playing goalie ~2003 and the pads that are available now are so much better than the ones even just ten years ago.

 

[Ripshot 43]

Consistent? No. Team systems and defensive awareness added to a much better overall talent level year by year makes it a harder sport to excell in. That's even with rule changes trying to make it a less physical league.

 

[JimEIV]

But what about a player that is just heads above the rest? Though Lindros could have been that guy given his size and skill but could never stay healthy.

But just a Lebron type athlete who combines high skill with pure physical dominance, and is thus much better then everyone else?

Physical dominance, from a scoring perspective has very much been marginalized - Who in the league scores because of physical dominance? When we see a defenseman a little too far out of position and caught in no mans land we recognize that immediately, don't we? 30 years ago a defenseman was playing almost on pure instinct, and natural ability... Now if he is not in the exact position he is supposed to be we all recognize the error. Same is true for goalies. The game will never be played in the free flow form it used to be - If anything, it is going to get worse.

Watch a clip of Bossy, Gretzky, Lafleur coming down the wing and scoring off the wall...That would NEVER happen today. NEVER. The goalie, even the worst in the league will have played an angle perfectly, drop into a butterfly and take up 95% of the shooters net....We still saw some big scoring in the 1990's because the robot goalie still hadn't taken full control of the league. Once everyone caught on to the Roy/Allaire style a new method to play the position took over and we've now had a generation of goalies trained and schooled to play no other way.

Athleticism cannot overcome this. You hardly see pure goal scoring in the league anymore - Everything is a muck and grind a rebound and bang in - Because of the goaltending and the systems.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

We will when they expand the net size by 3 inches in ea. direction. I figure that's about another 10-15 years or 3 lockouts down the line though.

 

[Missionhockey]

It would have to be a player intellectually superior to the rest. I watched a video a few years back about Crosby and his competition would always talk about his ability to get lost in coverage.

If anybody had a shot at scoring 120< points, it would have been him in that 10-11 year.

 

[JimEIV]

Institute an "Illegal defense" rule...Force man to man play LOL -- Somebody mentioned this after the Devils won the cup in 1995...Don't remember if it was just radio host or Bill Clement as the host???? I can't recall right now. But I want to say it was Clement who said it.

Make goalies go helmetless too

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Not unless we see a major influx of sub par talent like there was years ago. Great players of the past could look other worldly when they faced a much lower level of competition than they would face now.

The gap between the best and worst players now is so much smaller than it was in the past making this kind of feat next to impossible.

 

[Ripshot 43]

Institute an "Illegal defense" rule...Force man to man play LOL -- Somebody mentioned this after the Devils won the cup in 1995...Don't remember if it was just radio host or Bill Clement as the host???? I can't recall right now. But I want to say it was Clement who said it.

Make goalies go helmetless too

we would be one of the most screwed teams in the league in man coverage.

 

[Pegi90*]

there ain't gonna be even single 150p player next years to come.

big lols to that thread about how many points gretzky, lemiuex, hull, orr and howe would score today and alot of people telling gretzky would score 150-200p

 

[JimEIV]

The gap between the best and worst players now is so much smaller than it was in the past making this kind of feat next to impossible.

I'm not so sure about that...not necessarily disagreeing, just not sure...

Couple of things make me uncertain... one, we have more teams and other viable pro leagues than ever before...that should dilute the talent pool.

And two, a salary cap would seem to continue to pay high end players forcing lower end players more opportunity because of their cheaper price...

I don't know if that is true or not but that is my instinct.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

No. The goalies are just too good now. If you transported Scott Wedgewood back to the early 70s, even without the bigger equipment, we might be talking about him as the greatest goalie ever.

 

[devilsblood]

We will when they expand the net size by 3 inches in ea. direction. I figure that's about another 10-15 years or 3 lockouts down the line though.

I'm for it. And it's not a direct "we need to score more goals thus" argument either, it's more, "goalies and their pads are so darn big".

Purists would be upset, but it's such an easy fix without changing the way the game is played. Same exact game, just a bigger goal.

 

[tycobb]

Crosby put up 120 points on a team that scored 277 goals. If he plays on a team that scores around 330 he has a very good shot at 150.

Ovechkin put up 112 points on a team that scored 242 goals. Put him on a team that scores around ~324 goals and he has a chance.

And 330 goals is very possible. The 2009-10 Caps were able to score 318 goals. Ovie missed 10 games. He was on pace for ~125 PTS that year and was robbed the Hart.

It is a shame that Caps team didn't win it all. It was one of the best teams I have ever seen play (regular season). Ran into the wrong goalie in the 1st round.

 

[JimEIV]

I'm for it. And it's not a direct "we need to score more goals thus" argument either, it's more, "goalies and their pads are so darn big".

Purists would be upset, but it's such an easy fix without changing the way the game is played. Same exact game, just a bigger goal.

Flush every previous scoring record down the toilet so we can see an increase in goal scoring?

No thanks.

 

[Roomtemperature]

Flush every previous scoring record down the toilet so we can see an increase in goal scoring?

No thanks.

Its not like the league didn't flush things down the toilet for a "better product" before

See the Broad Street Bullies and the NHL letting that bs go on.

But honestly its not always about status quo because that's integrity sometimes its about doing the fair thing and trying to balance offense and defense. Sometimes I watch games where a team is getting 40 plus shots and not being able to score and its bs. Those are the games that kill the casual interest in the game because it doesn't feel fair.

Also in case against a 150 point player they don't have truly bad teams that you can score 13 goals on as a team like the early 80s Devils

 

[devilsblood]

Physical dominance, from a scoring perspective has very much been marginalized - Who in the league scores because of physical dominance? When we see a defenseman a little too far out of position and caught in no mans land we recognize that immediately, don't we? 30 years ago a defenseman was playing almost on pure instinct, and natural ability... Now if he is not in the exact position he is supposed to be we all recognize the error. Same is true for goalies. The game will never be played in the free flow form it used to be - If anything, it is going to get worse.

Watch a clip of Bossy, Gretzky, Lafleur coming down the wing and scoring off the wall...That would NEVER happen today. NEVER. The goalie, even the worst in the league will have played an angle perfectly, drop into a butterfly and take up 95% of the shooters net....We still saw some big scoring in the 1990's because the robot goalie still hadn't taken full control of the league. Once everyone caught on to the Roy/Allaire style a new method to play the position took over and we've now had a generation of goalies trained and schooled to play no other way.

Athleticism cannot overcome this. You hardly see pure goal scoring in the league anymore - Everything is a muck and grind a rebound and bang in - Because of the goaltending and the systems.

I think we still see a lot players who use their physicality to score goals. I think Jagr, even in his advanced stages still very much uses his physicality in that regards, then you have guys like Lucic, Kopitar, Getzlaf, whose size and strength are big parts of their game.


Granted unlike basketball, being tall does not have the same impact in Hockey, nor does leaping ability. But would it not help to be a ultra coordinated 6'8" 260lb player who skates like the wind and whose mind for the game is as good as anyones?

Someone brought up the "what would greztky's #'s be like in todays game?" But I think Mario is a more interesting question because he was much more of a physically dominant player then Gretzky. I think we would all agree he is much better then Sid who, when healthy is a pretty consistent 100 pt player in todays game. So what would Lemieux score in today's game? What if you paired him with a prime Jagr like back in the day?

 

[devilsblood]

Mario, at the age of 37, post cancer, post retirement #1, and still dealing with back and hip issues put up 91 points in 67 games at a time when the leading scorer in the league(Forsberg) had 106ish points.