RECsGuy*
Guest
imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.
Are you ****ing kidding?
imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.
Pahlsson, Niedermayer and pronger were the only ones imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.
getzlaf and beauchemin played well but not as good as selanne, getzlaf wasnt getting near the minutes that selanne was and mcdonald and selanne were playing unreal together, perry getzlaf and penner couldnt keep up.
Selanne, hands down.
Selanne is still dominant at 40 years old. He played at a time when Goals Per Game were at an all time low. He did not have a roster stacked with superstars to pad his stats.
After 1993, Kurri was washed up. He never even came remotely close to his Gretzky/Oilers era numbers. Selanne would have possibly passed the 900 goal mark if he had played on the Oilers during their dynasty.
Pahlsson, Niedermayer and pronger were the only ones imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.
getzlaf and beauchemin played well but not as good as selanne, getzlaf wasnt getting near the minutes that selanne was and mcdonald and selanne were playing unreal together, perry getzlaf and penner couldnt keep up.
Actually, Selanne was getting more than 2 minutes less than Getzlaf.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/ANA/2007.html
In order of importance:
Niedermayer
Pronger
Pahlsson
Giguere
Beauchemin
Getzlaf
Selanne
Gretzky was never as good a player without Kurri.
Did Wayne's (3) Art Ross Trophies and (1) Hart Trophy post-1988 slip your mind?
And, while we are it, why don't you tell the folks at home your theories for Kurri's mind-boggling drop after the age of...30? Jari went from...
'80-'90 (age 20-30)
900 GP - 566 G - 679 A - 1,245 PTS (1.38 PPG)
...to...
'91-'98 (age 31-38)
551 GP - 141 G - 245 A - 386 PTS (0.70 PPG)
Huh? WTF? I understand that a player's point-production will naturally decline as they age, but those numbers are ****ing ridiculous, especially if you believe he is one of the game's greats.
The Oiler dynasty's three main offensive pieces (Gretzky, Messier and Coffey) all found success after leaving Edmonton, while Kurri became an average NHL forward almost over night. Really makes you wonder who needed who during the Edmonton's glory days.
To the second bolded part, it's already been stated he scored more the year after Gretzky left than he did in his last year with Gretzky.
Selanne's international resume should be ignored for comparison's sake. Kurri played at a time of great weakness for Finnish national teams.
Did Wayne's (3) Art Ross Trophies and (1) Hart Trophy post-1988 slip your mind?
And, while we are it, why don't you tell the folks at home your theories for Kurri's mind-boggling drop after the age of...30? Jari went from...
'80-'90 (age 20-30)
900 GP - 566 G - 679 A - 1,245 PTS (1.38 PPG)
...to...
'91-'98 (age 31-38)
551 GP - 141 G - 245 A - 386 PTS (0.70 PPG)
Huh? WTF? I understand that a player's point-production will naturally decline as they age, but those numbers are ****ing ridiculous, especially if you believe he is one of the game's greats.
The Oiler dynasty's three main offensive pieces (Gretzky, Messier and Coffey) all found success after leaving Edmonton, while Kurri became an average NHL forward almost over night. Really makes you wonder who needed who during the Edmonton's glory days.
Don't diss Kurri's international record just like that:
He was surrounded by subpar teammates
Most of the time he was ineligeble due to the playoffs or the Olympics not allowing professionals
But teams must be compared too - Kurri in his prime was on the stacked Oilers (84-89 seasons who won the cup 4 times). Selänne between the 96 season and 01 was on tje Jets, Ducks and Sharks - getting to the playoffs a total of 3 times.
96-01 was an era of 4 really competitive teams, Red Wings, Avs, Devils and Stars. Put Selänne on one of those teams during that era and then wager at his amount of cups.
If he only were a 4th liner he'd now have 3 to Kurris 5.
If he'd have some impact, add 3 (Red Wings + Devils both lost in the finals once in addition to their 2 cups).
At 40, Selänne is 13th on the NHL points table for this season, add points for games missed per ppg average and he's 9th. At age 40.
Kurri had a better career on paper, but imho Teemu is the all time best Finnish ice hockey player. How many would Teemu have scored next to Gretzky?
Three main pieces? Please! I was there watching the Oilers dynasty destroy the Jets in person as a kid. You are forgetting Kurri (and Anderson for that matter). And yes Kurri declined relatively early but players peak at different times. As I said, I would rate Selanne as a better 40 year old player than Gretzky. Lemieux was also a far better 35 year old plus player (when he played).
GHOST
Now to throw something else out there: I'd rate the 40 year old Selanne as better than the 40 year old Gretzky, but that's a totally different debate.
People underrate one thing Selanne did in 07 playoffs: drawing attention to himself. On the PP there was 2 guys just watching him which really opened up opportunities for others.
Pahlsson, Niedermayer and pronger were the only ones imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.
getzlaf and beauchemin played well but not as good as selanne, getzlaf wasnt getting near the minutes that selanne was and mcdonald and selanne were playing unreal together, perry getzlaf and penner couldnt keep up.
If your son was born with a deformed eye, you would probably struggle too. That is why Giguere missed most the first three games of the first round. He returned for Game 4, struggled mightily, and was pulled. Carlyle stuck with him for Game 5, and he played every game the rest of the way, playing very well. It wasn't 2003, but it was a far greater contribution than Selanne's, which consisted of 6 points in 6 games against Detroit, and 9 points in the other 15 games spanning three series.
That is why Giguere missed most the first three games of the first round. He returned for Game 4, struggled mightily, and was pulled.
Every great player draws extra attention, especially on the powerplay and in the playoffs. It doesn't stop most of them from scoring. I mean, honestly, that has to be the worst argument, EVER. Selanne was an elite forward, among the top ten in the NHL in his prime, but was always a mediocre playoff performer. That's the difference between him and Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, and Jagr, among others from that era.
If your son was born with a deformed eye, you would probably struggle too. That is why Giguere missed most the first three games of the first round. He returned for Game 4, struggled mightily, and was pulled. Carlyle stuck with him for Game 5, and he played every game the rest of the way, playing very well. It wasn't 2003, but it was a far greater contribution than Selanne's, which consisted of 6 points in 6 games against Detroit, and 9 points in the other 15 games spanning three series.
There is a serious age gap here. To be old enough to have watched Kurri in his prime, you have to have been watching a steady diet of NHL hockey from 1980 or 1981 through about 1987 or so. That makes you at least 35-40 years old.
Most who did so will state that he's simply going to come out the better player. If you're a little younger, and if your earliest hockey memories are from the early- to mid-1990s, you probably remember Selanne more fondly. If you're 20 years old, I'm not honestly sure how you can have an opinion on this one. You've only watched one of these players.
Case in point, many who laud Selanne for his international efforts (and he's been great in international play) fail to mention that Kurri was also a very strong international player.
History of hockey questions always become colored by the degree to which you can gauge performance from stats and anecdotal evidence. It isn't easy to evaluate a player like a Nels Stewart, someone none of us had the opportunity to watch in his prime (and very few at all). You have to come up with different metrics, different criteria, but that comes with the territory.
Yet there is a real minefield when you start comparing someone from a bygone era (Kurri now starts to qualify) with someone who is currently playing, and whose career stretches back over the last 15-20 years only. Large portions of the fan base remember Selanne fondly from personal experience, vividly. In such a case, you are comparing a guy the kids have never/rarely seen with someone they have seen recently, and can see today. Beware.
Most who have seen them both, or most who can step back a bit, dispassionately, are going to have Kurri ahead of Selanne, however great the latter's career has been in both NHL and international play.