Why We Can't Rebuild Fully Until 2021

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
13,676
1,454
No fan ever wants to go through years of rebuilding. Visit any team's forum - even in the darkest day, the fans believe they only need 1-2 years out of the playoffs and they're right back in Cup contention. But it rarely works that way, and it certainly won't for the Rangers.

1. The most obvious reason is that Lundqvist, Staal, Smith are signed until 2021. That's $18.55 in cap space. You think they're not worth the money now? Do you think a 38 year old Lundqvist suddenly lives up to the $8.5 bill? How many players in their late 30s are worth that much? Staal and Smith will lose one more step in 2-3 years.

2. McDonagh and Zuccarello will either be gone or signed to overpaid UFA contracts. We got lucky/smart signing #27 when he was young. Zucc wanted to stay in New York because he loves the city, but also because it was a Cup contender and his best friend (Brass) was here. I highly doubt he re-signs for $4.5 again. Kind of insulting to him to offer him the same Smith is getting.

3. The next 2 years, Girardi's cap hit will rise $1 million to $3.61. Between Girardi, Lundqvist, Smith and Staal, that's almost $21.2 tied in dead weight or highly overpaid contracts. These contracts (except Girardi) will only get worse, as stated above.

4. As McDonagh, Shatty and MZA enter their 30s, they will start to lose a step, maybe even hit injuries. Maybe not all of them, but likely 2 of 3, and certainly 1 of 3. It is possible that some or all 3 of the above get traded, but normally when you get younger, you either accept a lesser player or you get a prospect/pick who takes years to develop. You could always get lucky and steal someone, but how often can you get a 23 year old for an equally good 31 year old? Would you trade Butcher for an equal player 8 years his senior?

5. Nash will leave, probably for a couple second rounders who will take years to develop, if they ever will. We could sign his replacement, but why? A UFA is (kind of) worth his salary only in the early years, and becomes an anchor in the second half of his contract. Why sign someone who will be at the tail end of his contract when Lundqvist, Staal, Smith, etc are gone, and Chytil, Lias, etc are ready to contribute? Also, if we keep McDonagh and MZA, most of Nash's salary will go towards their raises.

6. Even if Lias and Chytil are as good as advertised, it will be at least until their early 20s when they hit their prime, meaning in 3-4 years. Shesterkin won't be here for a couple of years and may need a couple more to really learn the NHL game.

That's not even counting that tere are always more busts than there are surprises. Our top-13 picks in the last 30 years are: Jay More (10 overall), Michael Stewart (13), Sundstrom (8), Malhotra (7), Brendl (4), Lundmark (9), Blackburn (10), Jessiman (12), Montoya (6), Staal (12) and McIlrath (10). Staal is the only one who could be said to have been an above average NHLer, at least for a few seasons, but even he's nowhere near star level.

Many kids looked great for a few months and then disappeared. That includes first rounders like Del Zotto and to some degree Peter Ferraro. After we drafted him, Ferraro scored almost 1.5 points per game as a college freshman and then over 100 points in 68 games in the AHL as a 22 year old. I remember the Rangers hyping him up for years, until the summer of 1996, and especially during the first lockout. That's not counting that we could lose someone young to a career-ending injury (Blackburn, Cherneski and Cherry). I'm sure we'll get a couple prospects out of our bunch, but do we get enough quantity and quality to replace Nash, Grabner, MZA(?), etc plus make up for the slowing down of some vets?

=================================================​

I think the Rangers recognize the above. This is why the contracts for Shatty, Staal and Smith will all end at the same time as Lundqvist's. Girardi's cap hit will drop to $1.11 the year before that. Staal is not getting bought out because it will mean his buyout cap hit would then extend past 2021. I doubt that's a coincident, I suspect it's part of the strategy.

Nothing stops the team from trading vets for youth in the meanwhile, but the all-out assault on the Cup should be timed to begin our peak during the 2021-22 season. The Rangers preferred in recent years to acquire older prospects over picks. That strategy may change. For the first time since 2004, they just acquired a first round pick - 4 years is enough to develop a draftee. If they thought they can rebuild in a year or two, it would've made more sense to get a guy who's 22 years old as the centerpiece of the Stepan trade.

In sports, like in war, it is crucial to concentrate your forces. If you have one good ELC player this year and another good ELC player in 3 years, you'll never be terrible, but you will never win the Cup. The GM should time it so that the team is ready to go for the Cup all at once, in our case in 2021-22. Get rid of anyone who will be too old by then. Acquire picks/prospects who should be on cheap ELCs by then. Then try to strike gold in 2022 instead of, "if we make the playoffs, anything can happen."
 
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Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
13,676
1,454
Can you post the TL|DR version now?

The cap situation sucks until 2021, some of our vets will age or leave every season, can't rely on all prospects to reach their max potential which is needed to replace all our vets as they age or leave.
 
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Yuck

Registered User
Sep 8, 2009
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92
I don't really agree with this. You can fully rebuild now if you want-- having some crappy contracts on the books isn't going to stop you because the rest of the players will be on cheap ELCs. In fact, having some vets to help the kids along is probably a good thing. That said, if the point was that we won't really be successful cup contenders until after 2021 because of those contracts, then I get it. But I am of the opinion that if you are going to do it, you do it now while kids have time to mature and learn from guys like Henrik, Nash and Staal who even in there diminished states, are professionals that are good role models.
 
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Mac n Gs

Gorton plz
Jan 17, 2014
22,594
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In four years is also when the newer young nucleus of their team will all be entering/in their prime, including adding the best goalie in the world that's not in the NHL right now. You're just assuming that we're going to have zero cap inflexibility, won't make trades similar to the Brassard and Stepan deals, or we won't keep stocking up on talent. I love how you mention our top-13 picks for the last 30 years, but completely ignore our other picks Kreider, Miller, Skjei, and MDZ.

I guarantee those 4 year terms have way more to do with the upcoming CBA than with some rebuild that we're just going to keep saying this team is going to do.
 

WeRa

Registered User
Nov 2, 2017
506
137
I agree with you that the situation is not exactly the best. Girardi's cap hit sounds terrible. But if you want to rebuild and draft is lottery with a minimum chance to win... what can we do? Trade our vets for superb young players? No way.. No one will trade us their future star players like McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Eichel, Laine, Nylander ... We can try to get a players like Dubois, Liljegren, Keller, Juolevi... but there is no guarantee.

Vicious circle called NHL. Lottery...
 

Larrybiv

We're CLEAN, we PROMISE!
May 14, 2013
9,569
4,877
South Florida
@Beacon.....I enjoyed reading your thoughts, but have a tendency to believe in exactly the opposite of how you plan things to be. That last statement of "get in and anything can happen" really is true. Anything can happen and usually does.
True that, teams with those superstars seem to always be in the hunt as serious contenders for the cup. But when a team makes the playoffs (especially our team) with bonafide playoff experience and success.......we have almost as much chance as the next team. Hockey is a funny sport. A game of inches, a bad call, the luck of the puck. Hot goaltending can win.
There in lay the problem......can Hank do it moving forward? Are we stronger and better offensively and defensively to make up for Hanks apparent "lesser play"? All we can do is make the PO's and we will find that out. I'm too old for any damned rebuild, I like how we are doing it, but those albatross contracts are really holding us back from a quicker turnaround (so to speak).
 

Ori

#Connor Bedard 2023 1st, Chicago Blackhawks
Nov 7, 2014
11,581
2,175
Norway
oh comeòn now - I only read the TL;DR version, but it started last summer when we moved Stepan`s contract 2017. Any trades consider a loss in impact value is consider a rebuild category trade. Yes, we`ve bad contracts in Smith, amd with Girardi, Staal, but we don`t need to wait and the rebuild process is already started.
 

haveandare

Registered User
Jul 2, 2009
18,957
7,527
New York
All the talk as if Smith is already a huge anchor and will be until 2021 is very, very silly imo. He was on this team last year, he was in the playoffs with us - he was very good. He's not a garbage player despite starting this season poorly along with almost the entire team.

As for when we can rebuild - you can rebuild anytime. We've already started. We traded a top 6 center for a PMD prospect and a pick. You don't get a more obvious rebuilding trade than that. They'll likely continue to stock up on futures going forward. There will be no year when you can point to them and say "oh, this is the year for the rebuild." It will be a slow and continuous process that will change depending on how different players work out.

If, for example, if Chytil is a 60 point center in the next two years and ADA gets it together, suddenly this team will be in the hunt again. Those are far out predictions but the point is you can't plan a rebuild with the solidity you're presenting here.
 

TheTakedown

Puck is Life
Jul 11, 2012
13,689
1,480
My guess is that they are preparing to be in WIN NOW MODE for the year 2021... They're using last year, this year, and maybe next year to prep for possible life after McDonagh, and planning to have the cap space available in 2021 when those three contracts come off the books/reduce in cap hit
 

Off Sides

Registered User
Sep 8, 2008
9,755
5,585
The OP is pretty close to my thoughts. Not that I expect the Rangers to follow through, but to plan for a new window within a couple years coming off the new CBA, by having cap space without dead or basically dead cap space, with hopefully a higher end prospect pool by using their own picks and selling at trade deadlines between now and 2021...

I know it's crazy but that would be a direction that actually has a timeline that makes sense.

However they just beat an expansion team, one of the better teams, and some meh team for 3 wins in a row and it only took two overtimes, so I assume they are already looking into who to rent at this deadline instead.
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
13,676
1,454
But I thought rebuilding doesn't work... I am confused now

Maybe try reading if that's what you got from either this thread or the last one seeing as that is literally the opposite of what I wrote.

You could've gotten the point of my last thread simply by reading the name of the thread in full instead of reading half of it (the name) and then thinking you can now comment on the whole thread.
 
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Matz03

Registered User
May 5, 2015
1,308
405
Boulder, CO
The cap situation sucks until 2021, some of our vets will age or leave every season, can't rely on all prospects to reach their max potential which is needed to replace all our vets as they age or leave.
I think management realizes exactly this and why they made the moves they made this offseason to try and set themselves up for 2020 or 2021. I fully expect them to go for futures with the pending UFA's and try to grab another first rounder for 2018, and load up on other picks as well. That would put Lias and Filip right on track to hopefully taking on key roles in 2020, 2021, and then having a couple of other (2018) picks stepping in on ELC's. They also drafted a bunch of older players this past draft, I think the goal was to have them come into Hartford as soon as 2018 or 2019 and with some luck develop into some bottom of the lineup depth. If Shesty can come over next season, or more likely 2019, it gives him a chances to split time with Hank initially before taking over starting duties in 2020. So really is appears that is exactly the time frame management is building toward.
 

WeRa

Registered User
Nov 2, 2017
506
137
I think management realizes exactly this and why they made the moves they made this offseason to try and set themselves up for 2020 or 2021. I fully expect them to go for futures with the pending UFA's and try to grab another first rounder for 2018, and load up on other picks as well. That would put Lias and Filip right on track to hopefully taking on key roles in 2020, 2021, and then having a couple of other (2018) picks stepping in on ELC's. They also drafted a bunch of older players this past draft, I think the goal was to have them come into Hartford as soon as 2018 or 2019 and with some luck develop into some bottom of the lineup depth. If Shesty can come over next season, or more likely 2019, it gives him a chances to split time with Hank initially before taking over starting duties in 2020. So really is appears that is exactly the time frame management is building toward.

Agree.. Brass for Ziba - first step. Stepan + Raanta for 1 round pick (Lias) + ADA was a second step. What's next?
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
13,676
1,454
Agree.. Brass for Ziba - first step. Stepan + Raanta for 1 round pick (Lias) + ADA was a second step. What's next?

Nash+Grabs, both at 50% for #1.

MZA for 1 and a good prospect.

McDonagh for a package like Duchene's plus another second.
 

WeRa

Registered User
Nov 2, 2017
506
137
Nash+Grabs, both at 50% for #1.

MZA for 1 and a good prospect.

McDonagh for a package like Duchene's plus another second.
I'm a little afraid how Rangers going to finish the season without these veterans... But rebuild is necessary
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
13,676
1,454
Yeah, that's not arbitrary at all.

Anyone born in the 80s will be 30+ by next summer except McDonagh who will be 29 and a year removed from UFA. It doesn't make sense for a rebuilding team to keep old guys or a guy who is a year removed from being a 30 year old demanding $7.5 for 8 years.
 

Machinehead

GoAwayTrouba
Jan 21, 2011
144,245
117,561
NYC
Anyone born in the 80s will be 30+ by next summer except McDonagh who will be 29 and a year removed from UFA. It doesn't make sense for a rebuilding team to keep old guys or a guy who is a year removed from being a 30 year old demanding $7.5 for 8 years.
When did this happen?

And I mean actually happen, not just in your world.
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
13,676
1,454
When did this happen?

And I mean actually happen, not just in your world.

Presumably the Brass/Step for Mika/Lias trades signaled that the team is more concerned with the future than the present. Either way, what the GM decides is almost irrelevant. The team is going down. All the bad contracts will get worse as Hank, Staal, Smith, etc age. Some good contracts may become bad if Shatty or whoever lose a step. McDonagh and MZA will leave or get much more, even as they get older.

The Rangers can either rebuild or get worse without acquiring the youth needed to rebuild, but either way we will get progressively worse.
 

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