!! Why high-quality independent scouts can't become NHL club scouts

[Yeg Prince]

Hello everyone! Your opinion is interesting. Why don't high-quality independent amateur scouts get a chance to work in an NHL club? What does it have to do with? Because their networking is weak? Because their work ethics is not high enough? Because the state of North American and European scouts is full? Or Because they have other goals? What do you think?

Your thought on how should looks a successful NHL Amateur Scout ? And what background skills can help ?

You can share here with some stories of successful scouts you know.

Click to read more...

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

One of the best independent scouts: Yannick St. Pierre got hired by the Canadiens, https://twitter.com/DraftDynasty1.

Lots of independent analysts / data engineers have been hired by teams when the "fancy stats" explosion took over, but that might have been unique to about 10 years ago and most FOs didn't even have analytics departments. I think it's possible if you put out high quality content and get noticed, but most of the time scouts get hired due to their connections/relationships with FOs.

 

[Just Linda]

A lot of it is connections.

A lot of what makes a good scout and what makes a journalist scout are completely different.

Assessing talent is a lot less of the job than you might realize.

Lots of people know hockey well, most anyone who played major junior has the knowledge to break down skillsets.

A good scout is a good networker. I'm in group chats with some scouts, I don't work for a team and I'll never have the skills to be a scout but the scouts I know are interested in knowing what happened in the games I went to with certain players. I mention I noticed something odd, they'll look at the game footage if it's significant. I don't doubt that they are in many other group chats with friend groups too doing the same thing.

They also have to be connected to teams. The scouts I know go out for wings all the time with staff members from the local WHL team here all the time and often don't even talk about hockey when they do. I went to the wedding of a scout last summer and there were a lot of big names from the WHL there too.

Theres also the communication part too. Seeing talent and assessing it doesn't do much if you can't concisely communicate it to someone above you. You have to be able to focus on answering their specific questions and be able to assess what they want you to assess.

Pronman or Scouching are good people for the internet but they have a different skillset than what a team scout does.

 

[majormajor]

Pronman or Scouching are good people for the internet but they have a different skillset than what a team scout does.

To add to this, not everybody wants to be a scout for an NHL team. It's not a high status job, you spend most of your time on the road, not always with the best food and lodgings. And you're watching games that aren't always interesting, and you can get your reports totally ignored if the GM prefers a colleague's picks.

Folks like Pronman and Chris Peters I think would get hired by NHL clubs if they wanted to go that route, but not in their job of choice. Scouch is doing something very different (he is more interested in exciting players and doesn't care about playoff ability) so teams wouldn't want him as a scout. Some of the young Elite Prospects folks do video work that is similar to what Yannick St. Pierre was doing, so I imagine they could break in similarly, but it might be a lot more boring and require a pay cut from their current jobs.

 

[95snipes]

It's an interesting question. I'd honestly work for free to have a voice in the room of an NHL team, even if I was lowest on the totem pole.

A lot of scouts were former players with connections or have connections in other ways. I don't doubt at all that being a former player and going through the process yourself helps with the evaluation process. But just being a former player doesn't make you a better evaluator than someone who played AHL or played major junior and went nowhere, etc.

Also some independent scouts don't work for NHL teams for a reason. With all due respect to Pronman, I would not want him running my favorite NHL team's draft.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

All of the above - having worked small time scouting jobs over the years I got to see first hand how some things are done.

A lot of it is networking and credibility, having played at a high level goes a long way , whether it's valid or not. It's tough to break into the "club" as an outsider to even be given a shot, and even then climbing the rankings is just as hard. I have met scouts for junior and minor pro teams who were more "ambassadors" than anything, in that they knew the networks well but their actual scouting knowledge wasnt quite up to par. On the other hand , I've met some really smart hockey minds who are content doing part -time scouting jobs for small teams and work regular 9-5 jobs. The reality is that you need to commit to it, and most scouts aren't even paid that well, so of you have career/family aspirations outside of hockey it's tough to justify spending so much time doing something that isn't going to pay the bills.

It's not that different from many other industries I'm sure , this is just my take from my experiences

Edit - I will add that being a scout at the Jr level is almost a "recruiting" position as well since you are also convincing players to choose CHL, ushl, etc. Having a strong network or credibility goes a long way when you are trying to sway a player to choose your organization, so in that regard I see the value in being well known, trusted, credible etc. Its not just identifying the talent, it's being able to bring them on, which is a little different from the pros in many cases

 

[matt trick]

Max Gaese (fka as x-sharkie) cut his teeth as a teenage hf poster, before becoming a scout maybe 8 years ago for redline than the wild.

*I may have every detail about org, third party, time, and last name wrong, but that’s the approximate jist.

Chris Peters is my cousin, and I love that I get his perspective on the whole league, but I have no idea whether he’d like to be a team scout or not. I’m a believer though- would love if the sharks hired him!

 

[Pavels Dog]

Why don't high-quality independent amateur scouts get a chance to work in an NHL club?

Are there many?

I'm not discrediting the work the amateur scouts do, they're doing the best they can and bring a lot of value to fans.

But they're not working with a full picture.
They mostly gain surface-level knowledge about as many players and prospects as possible, and they're not forced to actually make the tough calls.

It's similar to how a really good sports writer can probably come up with really good ideas and scenarios for how to construct a roster, what trades to make etc.
But that's a different job than actually being in the position to make those decisions.

 

[pgfan66]

*I may have every detail about org, third party, time, and last name wrong, but that’s the approximate jist.

Max Giese to the Jets might be who you're referring to? No idea if he was ever on HFBoards but the name is close and he was a young guy somehow breaking into the NHL. He's an agent with CAA now.

As to the OP, I think it's worth noting that quite a few "internet scouts" now work for NHL teams. Apologies if I get any of the names wrong but off the top of my head: Cody Nickolett in Carolina, Jokke Nevalainen in Carolina, Rhys Jessop in Carolina, Christoffer Hedlund in Toronto, Ryan Biech in Vancouver (albeit in a video scouting/analyst position) and there are definitely more. It's incredibly difficult but it can be and has been done.

I think the fact that 3 of the guys I listed are with the Hurricanes proves one important point: 90% of NHL scouts used to play in the league or are sons, nephews, etc. of guys who played in the league. A lot of GM sons and so on. The most important thing the internet scouts need is a team that's open-minded enough to give them a shot – like the Hurricanes. And this doesn't mean they have a weak network, it just means teams prefer to hire guys they know from the hockey world.

Of course, the small number of available positions is a factor too. Weak work ethic, on the other hand, absolutely is not. You wouldn't believe the work ethic some (dare I say many?) NHL scouts have. If teams hired based on work ethic, half the league's scouts would be fired and replaced by internet scouts.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Working in pro hockey, like a lot of other jobs, is all who you know, unfortunately.

We're a long way from a meritocracy.

 

[alko]

Because many scouting positions in teams are reserved for dads or brothers of their stars.

 

[Egresch]

Robert Neuhauser used to write for HF about Czech prospects and is now scout for Flames. I see he started in 2006 for Penguins, so a solid career already.
Most of scouts in CZE/SVK are former players or somehow related to players (family, friends).

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Max Giese to the Jets might be who you're referring to? No idea if he was ever on HFBoards but the name is close and he was a young guy somehow breaking into the NHL. He's an agent with CAA now.

FWIW, he was a very regular and prominent poster here for many years, we always looked forward to his rankings and scouting reports, and it was great to see a dedicated young guy actually make it to the big leagues.

So it can be done, but you'd really have to love doing that so much and put so much of your own time and energy (and money) into it, along with having the aptitude, that it's definitely not common. As everybody else here has noted, most of the spots are reserved for people with connections from playing days.

 

[Fantomas]

Many of those jobs are given to friends and family members. Simple as.

They're also really not good jobs for the most part. Pay is paltry, recognition near zero. At least as an independent scout you can post your opinions on social media.

 

[matt trick]

FWIW, he was a very regular and prominent poster here for many years, we always looked forward to his rankings and scouting reports, and it was great to see a dedicated young guy actually make it to the big leagues.

So it can be done, but you'd really have to love doing that so much and put so much of your own time and energy (and money) into it, along with having the aptitude, that it's definitely not common. As everybody else here has noted, most of the spots are reserved for people with connections from playing days.

Yes! Max Giese was the guy.

And I was correct about being wrong- wrong year (12 years ago), wrong team (Winnipeg), wrong last name (a-->i), but he did work for Redline. So in short, nailed it!

@Kcoyote3 perhaps you're next! So happy to see you getting stuck in.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

One of the best independent scouts: Yannick St. Pierre got hired by the Canadiens, https://twitter.com/DraftDynasty1.

Lots of independent analysts / data engineers have been hired by teams when the "fancy stats" explosion took over, but that might have been unique to about 10 years ago and most FOs didn't even have analytics departments. I think it's possible if you put out high quality content and get noticed, but most of the time scouts get hired due to their connections/relationships with FOs.

The Habs (and Yannick's) gain is our collective loss. He did such great video work. You can tell he understands the game on a "holistic" level that many of his contemporaries lack.

 

[Love]

They're not in the old boys club

 

[Frk It]

If you're wrong as an amateur scout for an NHL team, you get fired.

If you're wrong as a media scout, you keep your job.

Pretty easy decision to me. It's the same reason former NFL coaches work at ESPN instead of going back into coaching.

 

[FlyguyOX]

I'd rather be a media scout if the pay is comparable (likely better) for the quality of life difference.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Many of those jobs are given to friends and family members. Simple as.

They're also really not good jobs for the most part. Pay is paltry, recognition near zero. At least as an independent scout you can post your opinions on social media.

$50,000 a year to go watch hockey for an NHL team is pretty good. I'm sure gas, food, etc are all paid on these trips. You become good, you move up a director of amateur scouting and eventually assistant GM and maybe even GM.

 

[FlyguyOX]

$50,000 a year to go watch hockey for an NHL team is pretty good. I'm sure gas, food, etc are all paid on these trips. You become good, you move up a director of amateur scouting and eventually assistant GM and maybe even GM.

Living out of hotels and on fast food ain't the life for me.

 

[Fantomas]

$50,000 a year to go watch hockey for an NHL team is pretty good. I'm sure gas, food, etc are all paid on these trips. You become good, you move up a director of amateur scouting and eventually assistant GM and maybe even GM.

In your dreams.

 

[NikF]

It's pretty hard from a weak networking base. From my experience, I don't think "being right" or proven past track record ranks very highly as a job requirement, which is paradoxical given that is what most of the job is supposed to be about, ie "being right" with your picks.

However, with the increased liberalization among NHL teams, I am sure we will see an improvement in that regard and more "unconventional" hires even among the scouting departments. That will snowball, as more "unconventional" people come through the ranks, they themselves will be more open to hiring people with different backgrounds and bring the industry closer to a meritocratic standard hopefully. I suppose, without looking too much into it, Carolina is one such team, where this transition already happened.

 

[ijuka]

Networking.

As we can see by who people hire as GMs and what kind of picks are made in drafts by some NHL teams, it really isn't important how good you're at scouting. What's important is who you know and whether you're fun to hang out with at parties and meetings.

Same with just about every job. Your actual skill and ability is a minor concern. Most of it is just pointless filler time designed to make money move between parties.

 

[Rebels57]

Hard to break into the old boys club with connections. The NHL is by far the worst of any sport when it comes to this.