Why dont the flames actually trade for a proper goalie ever?

[apollo18]

Ever since Kipper retired/worsened, the flames have never had a true #1 goalie.
i know tons of you guys are gonna say " oh bla bla goalie was basically a #1 look at the stats"
but thats all when it doesn't matter. do you really trust talbot and rittich winning you a stanley cup?

it seems like when flames trade for a goalie they always are expecting to receive the goalie when hes in prime form or expect him to play in prime form while they truly are just washed up 1b goalies or back ups.

theyve literally had a revolving door of goalies the past 6 years, some were signed and traded for but why not actually pay the price and get a proper goalie for example what toronto did etc etc or like what the canucks did with ryan miller and luongo etc etc.

doesnt this annoy flames fans?

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[Kranix]

No

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Yes.

But we've supposedly be in on pretty much every major goalie trade for the past 5 years.

 

[Dack]

I'd honestly rather have a revolving door of 1Bs rather than give up a tonne to get a goalie, they're way too inconsistent. Bobrovsky, Martin Jones, Holtby, Anderson. All of those guys are/were considered legit goalies either this season or a few seasons ago, this year all of them performed worse than our guys and that's off the top of my head I'm sure there's numerous other examples.


It would be nice to have a legitimate starter but seeing as Matt Murray (who was probably the most valuable goalie in the league for a few years and has since been passed by another young AHL star) and a random 26 year old AHLer (Binnington) have won 3 of the last 4 cups I think it's much more about your goalie getting hot at the right time than it is about having an elite goalie.

 

[BurnEmUp]

Treliving tried to acquire Bishop multiple times.

 

[Boomstick]

I heard rumors that we were all in on Marc Andre Fleury and Frederik Andersen, Ben Bishop, but none came to fruition.
I think Andersen was a finalized trade but the Ducks didn't want him in the Pacific Division and bailed at the last second.

I agree with you. I could list a ton of goalies we've had play for us in the last few years, but why bother. I've had hopes for all of them and they're fine for the regular season but when it all matters in the playoffs we don't get much of a performance. But Mike Smith was fantastic last year vs Colorado. I kind of wish we would have given him 1 more year instead of Talbot. What bothers me the most about Talbot is that he more than likely allows a goal on the first shot of the game. I was stunned that it happened again last night, but whatever. I have no control over anything. I just want good, consistent goaltending and it's really hard to come by.
I hope Treliving gives Holtby a quick glance, but I can't see us committing long term to him. He'll still want big bucks and we can't afford an aging goalie on a long contract.
I really don't know what the solution is. I thought it might be Parsons, but we might be waiting for Dustin Wolf.
My opinions on Rittich Talbot are topsy turvy. I like Rittich, but he has to step it up big time or he'll be another Ramo. I don't like Talbot, I don't trust him, I cringe every game that he's in. To me Talbot is always on his knees and I can not understand why. If you watch him and the play is in our end he's on his knees for sooooo long and that bothers me, I'm always yelling to get up on his skates. If Talbot gets starts and does nothing he'll be a scapegoat and be abandoned like Elliott was. If Rittich gets the starts and does nothing, I don't know what'll happen.
But I agree, it's been frustrating. We need a true number 1 goalie for a good, long 5 year stretch.

 

[Fig]

Bishop - Vetoed by ownership twice. Tampa also wanted too much.
Murray - Pittsburgh wanted to try him out before accepting Trelving's offer
Grubauer - Couldn't absorb the cap hit/buyout. No specific rumors though.
Andersen - Couldn't afford the inter-conference premium the Ducks wanted us to pay by a little. Sent to TO instead.
MAF - Pittsburgh wanted too much/used him as enticing expansion fodder

It's insanely not due to the lack of trying. Treliving just literally has had to go with plan B many times since becoming GM.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

but thats all when it doesn't matter. do you really trust talbot and rittich winning you a stanley cup?

Did you trust Jordan Binnington the season he was a literal 6th stringer?
Did you trust Anti Niemi in 2010?
Did you trust Corey Crawford in 2013?
After losing his net to Darling for the first handful of playoff games 2015, did you trust Corey Crawford to go all the way?
When Marc-Andre Fleury went down with injury in 2016, did you trust his literal rookie backup?
Can you name both players who played in net for the 2006 Hurricanes for me?
How many Stanley Cups do Lundqvist, Luongo, Bishop, Vasilevskiy, and Price have?
Have you seen former Flame goaltender Mike Smith's career playoff stats?
After 2004, how did Mikka Kiprusoff fare in the playoffs?

etc etc etc.

Goaltending is important, but it's also highly random, and #1 goaltenders tend to get burnt out anyways by the time the playoffs roll around, and random nobodies can get hot.

Jonathan Quick is the most accomplished goalie of the last decade, and even he's fallen off the map.

 

[InfinityIggy]

The last goalie that was available that fits your description was Bishop, who Treliving tried to get. They just don't come available often.

 

[Mobiandi]

There'll be plenty of good goalies available this offseason so I'm hopeful

 

[Fig]

Did you trust Jordan Binnington the season he was a literal 6th stringer?
Did you trust Anti Niemi in 2010?
Did you trust Corey Crawford in 2013?
After losing his net to Darling for the first handful of playoff games 2015, did you trust Corey Crawford to go all the way?
When Marc-Andre Fleury went down with injury in 2016, did you trust his literal rookie backup?
Can you name both players who played in net for the 2006 Hurricanes for me?
How many Stanley Cups do Lundqvist, Luongo, Bishop, Vasilevskiy, and Price have?
Have you seen former Flame goaltender Mike Smith's career playoff stats?
After 2004, how did Mikka Kiprusoff fare in the playoffs?

etc etc etc.

Goaltending is important, but it's also highly random, and #1 goaltenders tend to get burnt out anyways by the time the playoffs roll around, and random nobodies can get hot.

Jonathan Quick is the most accomplished goalie of the last decade, and even he's fallen off the map.

Of the more "reasonable acquisitions" I thought worth looking into (ie: Not Varly due to cap complications and goalies not rumored to be available)

Before he broke out, I wanted us to trade Rittich for Binnington.
When we nabbed Dougie, I wanted to see if we could trade for Rask/try to steal him and he'd be a good mentor to Ortio. I was told I was silly and he was worth a late 2nd at best, maybe two late 2nds...
I liked Raanta, but I was told he was a product of Chicago and basically Nieme. Then he killed it in NY...
I liked Lehner and I was told he was washed up.
Mrazek, but concerned he was a head case...

But I also liked Darling/Pickard as a reclamation project more than I liked Lack... Interested in Bernier/Reimer as a 1B, hated Kuemper and Smith... perhaps that shows how little I know.

I currently am interested in Allen as a reclamation project. Interested in Kahkonen, but it seems Minny won't let him go.

 

[apollo18]

yeah fair enough, i know that in recent years the non vezina and random goalies have won the cup but thats not always the case.
goalies like tim thomas, lundvist, luongo, fleury, holtby have all shown to be effective in the playoffs when it matters. sure you might think that luongo chokes but the team barely scored in 2011 cup finals so not completely his problem. for fleury he did fall off a cliff before 2016 or whatever but he came out of it and started doing good after 2017+.

most of these big name goalies i feel have a higher chance in clutching in the playoffs.
binnington could be a outlier but he seemed to have a chip on his shoulder + the blues also have good defense.

i just feel like calgary has been way too into trying to get reclamation projects. like sure i know it sucks that sometimes u might have to overpay a little but thats how these markets work. for the past 6 years, i feel like flames could have got somewhere if they actually had a proper goalies but these washed one used to be 1a/1b arent gonna cut it.


or sometimes u just gotta draft one with a high pick for example carter hart, vasilevski, etc etc

using the past playoffs for example:
cam ward - high draft pick
tim thomas - strong in later years
rask- always been relatively consistent
fleury- good
murray- played good and in the regular season had a much higher svp then someone like rittich
quick- always a main stay for good goaltending



all im saying is its been 6 years might as well pay a higher price atleast u can rely on your goalies after.
like who was rittch even before this year, the guys a nobody, i woudlnt trust him winning a cup

 

[Kranix]

Better to be thrifty with signing/trading/drafting 1Bs until one actually turns out to be a legit workhorse #1

 

[User1996]

I really couldn’t justify throwing big bucks at a goalie unless needs are filled elsewhere first. I think the league is going the way of tandem situations anyways.

 

[themelkman]

Take it from a sharks fan. Our proper goalie trade was great for a few years but now looks awful

 

[Turning Mangiapanese]

The root cause here is our godawful goalie development. Rittich is basically our best "home-grown" talent since I don't even know... Vernon almost 40 years ago? Everyone else has busted and the goalies we've acquired have mostly declined here. Kipper being the obvious exception but I always got the feeling he basically coached himself anyway.

I suppose this is the case for most of the teams in the league though. There's only a couple of goalie coaches around who are actually any good, and if you don't have one of those you just have to hope you stumble upon some supremely talented goalie you then ride for a decade.

 

[Anglesmith]

Goalies are too fickle. Most of the time devoting significant cap space to a starter is a bad idea because of the tendency goalies have to fluctuate wildly in their play season to season, and fall off a cliff all of a sudden for no reason (Talbot, Jones, Schneider, Varlamov, etc.). Edmonton paid for a starting goalie and had to move on from him. San Jose paid for a starting goalie and he's now anchoring them. Devoting assets in a trade on top of that is very risky.

Goalies that are available through trade are not typically surefire starters, and even surefire starters can suddenly become bad. Developing goalies is better asset management, because while you're still taking a gamble, you are betting a lot less.

In terms of surefire starters who do become available through trade, there aren't many, which would explain why the Flames haven't traded for one. Bishop was as a rental, but went the FA route anyway. Other than that, who comes to mind?

 

[JPeeper]

To think Bishop only signed for $29+ mil for 6 years. f*** we'd be a contender if he signed here. (our trade got veto'd, but then signed in Dallas as a free agent after IIRC)

I am not surprised Treliving backed down from all the trades that we know about. The Fleury one Pitt wanted the Tkachuk pick IIRC. Andersen, Anaheim wanted a 1st + because of inter division. Complete overpayments.

Was hoping he'd be in on Raanta, but now he is in 'zona.

 

[CamPopplestone]

Yeah as others have said, it's too risky a position to give significant assets

Not to mention, I don't think an elite goalie would guarantee us a cup or anything, we have too many other holes

 

[Fig]

To think Bishop only signed for $29+ mil for 6 years. f*** we'd be a contender if he signed here. (our trade got veto'd, but then signed in Dallas as a free agent after IIRC)

I am not surprised Treliving backed down from all the trades that we know about. The Fleury one Pitt wanted the Tkachuk pick IIRC. Andersen, Anaheim wanted a 1st + because of inter division. Complete overpayments.

Was hoping he'd be in on Raanta, but now he is in 'zona.

Rumors was that Bishop wanted a 7x7 if he came to Calgary.

Anaheim would have probably accepted Dallas' late 1st and a little more for Andersen if we have gotten it in the Russell trade.

The Tkachuk pick I think was MAF and their first (trade down). Probably not worth it.

Yeah as others have said, it's too risky a position to give significant assets

Not to mention, I don't think an elite goalie would guarantee us a cup or anything, we have too many other holes

I don't necessarily think we wanted or needed and elite goalie. Someone that can maintain consistent slightly above average goal tending is enough. Andersen would have been perfect actually. Murray would have also been interesting.

It's no guarantee of a cup, but a good 1G would at least help us narrow down the issues with the roster.

Too bad Russell didn't play that extra playoff game to upgrade the 2nd to a 1st. I think Anaheim would have accepted that pick upgrade price for Andersen.

 

[Bounces R Way]

The goalies Jordan Binnington bested in the playoffs last year were worth around 24 million a year combined. His yearly salary was less than 700,000.

The margins in goaltending are very thin. It's really not a position you want to commit a lot to unless you're sure. As much as the Flames have had mixed results with their recent approach to netminding, I can't really say I disagree with it. They've been in on most of the higher profile goalies that have moved. I imagine they'll be making some offers to the UFA crop. I hope they stay away from a long term big money deal, they can really backfire if the player markedly declines.

 

[Beavski24]

Treliving tried to acquire Bishop multiple times.

Ottawa traded him for Cory conaker

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Ottawa traded him for Cory conaker

And that happened a year before Treliving became GM here.

 

[CamPopplestone]

And before Bishop was a genuine starter

 

[Anglesmith]

And before Bishop was a genuine starter

And Conacher was looking like a stud.