Why didn't Lindros want to play in Quebec?

[Boxscore]

Like I said, the Flyers should have allowed the Rangers to have him.

Looking back on it now, definitely. But that's not fair.

At the time, the Flyers were looking for a marquee player as the face of their new arena. Let's not forget, unlike many owners today who try to hold their cities ransom for money, Ed Snider built the Flyers from the ground up. He wanted Lindros to sellout the new building. And what better player in Philadelphia than a 6-5, 230 pound monster who is tough and nails with skills to match? Lindros just demolished Ulf Samuelsson in the Canada Cup as a child, snapping his collarbone with a massive hit. Eric was supposed to be a bigger, meaner, more talented Mark Messier - he was tailor made for Philadelphia.

The thing is, the Flyers could have done the Lindros trade without Forsberg. If you read the book Full Spectrum, the Flyers asked Forsberg if he was willing to come over in 92-93 and he said no. So they traded him to Quebec instead of Slava Butsyav, who was coming over. The Flyers were so insistent on having players that season, they included Forsberg instead of Butsayev. While this doesn't seem logical, at the time, Butsayev was starting to blossom with Moscow and Farwell liked him a lot. Forsberg wasn't a Farwell pick, really, he was an Inge Hammarstrom brainchild. Hammarstrom begged the Flyers to draft Forsberg in the first round. Rumor has it he even offered to resign in 3 years if Forsberg wasn't a pending superstar in the NHL. If you watch footage of the draft, even Forsberg was shocked that he was picked in the first round.

3:00 in...

 

[Drytoast]

career, yes...peak, its even

wasn't comparing Lindros and Forsberg.

just enjoying the irony of not going to Quebec because he didnt think they'd compete when they really had most of the core of a multi Cup winner in place and adding him to it would've been the key piece (same way Forsberg was)

It wasnt just compete though.

He wanted bank and attention. Both of which even a muti cup quebec wouldnt get the same amount of either as he would in toronto or even montreal.

He wanted to make as much money as possible.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

The thing is, the Flyers could have done the Lindros trade without Forsberg. If you read the book Full Spectrum, the Flyers asked Forsberg if he was willing to come over in 92-93 and he said no. So they traded him to Quebec instead of Slava Butsyav, who was coming over. The Flyers were so insistent on having players that season, they included Forsberg instead of Butsayev. While this doesn't seem logical, at the time, Butsayev was starting to blossom with Moscow and Farwell liked him a lot. Forsberg wasn't a Farwell pick, really, he was an Inge Hammarstrom brainchild. Hammarstrom begged the Flyers to draft Forsberg in the first round. Rumor has it he even offered to resign in 3 years if Forsberg wasn't a pending superstar in the NHL. If you watch footage of the draft, even Forsberg was shocked that he was picked in the first round.

3:00 in...

Hindsight is 20/20, but the Flyers weren't going anywhere in 92-93 after the Lindros trade. Lindros, Recchi, Brind'Amour and Kevin Dineen were the only weapons on that team. Whenever your best defenseman is Garry Galley and your goaltenders are Dominic Roussel and Tommy Soderstrom, you fall into a deep depression. If the Flyers were so insistent on having bodies, they could have gotten the same production from a career AHL'er considering how terrible Butsayev was. The Flyers should have just waited for Forsberg to arrive in 1995.

 

[Big Phil]

this is where i always say even mario—even mario—eventually went to pittsburgh. even mario wasn’t that big of a baby.

Draft Revisited – Mario Lemieux and the Class of 1984

In his early career Mario did have that stubbornness to him. But yeah, with him he wanted to be paid well and that was the issue. Yet he still played and came and scored on his first NHL shift.

They had just won the cup in 93...

Do they if Lindros is in Quebec? Honest question. They played each other in 1993 and Montreal needed overtime in Game 3 down 2-0 in the series to survive. The ramifications of Lindros going to an up and coming team as it is were limitless.

 

[Drytoast]

In his early career Mario did have that stubbornness to him. But yeah, with him he wanted to be paid well and that was the issue. Yet he still played and came and scored on his first NHL shift.



Do they if Lindros is in Quebec? Honest question. They played each other in 1993 and Montreal needed overtime in Game 3 down 2-0 in the series to survive. The ramifications of Lindros going to an up and coming team as it is were limitless.

Id probably favor quebec?

 

[jghockey]

Looking back on it now, definitely. But that's not fair.

At the time, the Flyers were looking for a marquee player as the face of their new arena. Let's not forget, unlike many owners today who try to hold their cities ransom for money, Ed Snider built the Flyers from the ground up. He wanted Lindros to sellout the new building. And what better player in Philadelphia than a 6-5, 230 pound monster who is tough and nails with skills to match? Lindros just demolished Ulf Samuelsson in the Canada Cup as a child, snapping his collarbone with a massive hit. Eric was supposed to be a bigger, meaner, more talented Mark Messier - he was tailor made for Philadelphia.

The thing is, the Flyers could have done the Lindros trade without Forsberg. If you read the book Full Spectrum, the Flyers asked Forsberg if he was willing to come over in 92-93 and he said no. So they traded him to Quebec instead of Slava Butsyav, who was coming over. The Flyers were so insistent on having players that season, they included Forsberg instead of Butsayev. While this doesn't seem logical, at the time, Butsayev was starting to blossom with Moscow and Farwell liked him a lot. Forsberg wasn't a Farwell pick, really, he was an Inge Hammarstrom brainchild. Hammarstrom begged the Flyers to draft Forsberg in the first round. Rumor has it he even offered to resign in 3 years if Forsberg wasn't a pending superstar in the NHL. If you watch footage of the draft, even Forsberg was shocked that he was picked in the first round.

3:00 in...

Since the Flyers were so keen and impatient on having players joining them the very next season, they could not have done the deal with Forsberg. I think that they were so desperate to get Lindros that they lost sight on the players that they had developing already. They were giving up too much and should have let the Rangers have him.

 

[Boxscore]

Hindsight is 20/20, but the Flyers weren't going anywhere in 92-93 after the Lindros trade. Lindros, Recchi, Brind'Amour and Kevin Dineen were the only weapons on that team. Whenever your best defenseman is Garry Galley and your goaltenders are Dominic Roussel and Tommy Soderstrom, you fall into a deep depression. If the Flyers were so insistent on having bodies, they could have gotten the same production from a career AHL'er considering how terrible Butsayev was. The Flyers should have just waited for Forsberg to arrive in 1995.

Oh, I agree. The biggest mistake the Flyers made in the whole Lindros trade was not keeping Forsberg, if that report was true. In Full Spectrum, it was reported by Jay Greenberg who covered the Flyers on a daily basis. He said that while mapping out a trade for Lindros, Quebec told the Flyers they wanted the following...

Hextall
Duchene
Huffman
Simon
(one of) Brind'Amour or Ricci
(one of) Butsayev or Forsberg
2 Picks
15 mil cash

... the Flyers opted for Ricci and Forsberg. Greenberg specifically mentioned that the Flyers thought Brind'Amour was more versatile and established so they chose to deal Ricci. And that they wanted to keep Forsberg, but when he wouldn't commit to coming to NA, the Flyers considered him and Butsayev close enough to equal that they included Forsberg and kept Butsayev.

If the Flyers core was Lindros, Forsberg, Recchi, Brind'Amour, Dineen, Renberg... we're looking at a whole different ball game. Could you imagine teams having to shut down Lindros and Forsberg in the same game? And you wonder if having Forsberg would have eliminated some of the pressure on Lindros?

 

[jghockey]

Oh, I agree. The biggest mistake the Flyers made in the whole Lindros trade was not keeping Forsberg, if that report was true. In Full Spectrum, it was reported by Jay Greenberg who covered the Flyers on a daily basis. He said that while mapping out a trade for Lindros, Quebec told the Flyers they wanted the following...

Hextall
Duchene
Huffman
Simon
(one of) Brind'Amour or Ricci
(one of) Butsayev or Forsberg
2 Picks
15 mil cash

... the Flyers opted for Ricci and Forsberg. Greenberg specifically mentioned that the Flyers thought Brind'Amour was more versatile and established so they chose to deal Ricci. And that they wanted to keep Forsberg, but when he wouldn't commit to coming to NA, the Flyers considered him and Butsayev close enough to equal that they included Forsberg and kept Butsayev.

If the Flyers core was Lindros, Forsberg, Recchi, Brind'Amour, Dineen, Renberg... we're looking at a whole different ball game. Could you imagine teams having to shut down Lindros and Forsberg in the same game? And you wonder if having Forsberg would have eliminated some of the pressure on Lindros?

I thought that Marcel Aubut, who specifically wanted Forsberg, said that the deal would not happen if the Nordiques hadn't gotten Forsberg.

 

[Big Phil]

Id probably favor quebec?

Not to mention with Lindros in there do they even deal Sundin? You've got Sakic, Lindros and Sundin as centres. Nolan and Kamensky as wingers. They probably never deal Sundin because they don't need the sandpaper with Clark because they already have that and much more with Lindros. The rest would take care of itself. They had Foote and in the system already on defense and they had the parts to trade for another defenseman and a goalie.

That team still wins the two Cups from Colorado in my opinion. Maybe more.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Not to mention with Lindros in there do they even deal Sundin? You've got Sakic, Lindros and Sundin as centres. Nolan and Kamensky as wingers. They probably never deal Sundin because they don't need the sandpaper with Clark because they already have that and much more with Lindros. The rest would take care of itself. They had Foote and in the system already on defense and they had the parts to trade for another defenseman and a goalie.

That team still wins the two Cups from Colorado in my opinion. Maybe more.

the other butterfly effect question from that is what does this do the the NJ Cup teams? Does Quebec lower their accomplishments

 

[Drytoast]

Not to mention with Lindros in there do they even deal Sundin? You've got Sakic, Lindros and Sundin as centres. Nolan and Kamensky as wingers. They probably never deal Sundin because they don't need the sandpaper with Clark because they already have that and much more with Lindros. The rest would take care of itself. They had Foote and in the system already on defense and they had the parts to trade for another defenseman and a goalie.

That team still wins the two Cups from Colorado in my opinion. Maybe more.

And even if they would have won every year he played there, hes still making leas in merch and less of a star than had he played in toronto or montreal.

Which is why he never signed in quebec

 

[Boxscore]

I thought that Marcel Aubut, who specifically wanted Forsberg, said that the deal would not happen if the Nordiques hadn't gotten Forsberg.

Aubut wanted to look like a genius because Forsberg turned out as great as he did. That's my guess. Aubut was a Grade A huckster who would tell you the sky was pink if he could get away with it. He made a deal with the Flyers and gave them permission to call Lindros then tried to play stupid and said he had a deal with the Rangers. I wouldn't trust a word Aubut says, ever.

 

[jghockey]

Realistically, could the Flyers have gotten Lindros while also keeping Brind'Amour, Forsberg, and Recchi?

 

[Staniowski]

the Flyers considered him and Butsayev close enough to equal that they included Forsberg and kept Butsayev.

Yeah, at the time of the trade Forsberg was a very good prospect but not yet the mega-prospect that he would become during the following season (which was his 19-year-old season).

 

[ecemleafs]

The Flyers should have let Lindros go to the Rangers. They gave up too much for one player who had not played one NHL game.

Rangers win multiple cups in the 90s if they completed that trade imo.

 

[Boxscore]

Realistically, could the Flyers have gotten Lindros while also keeping Brind'Amour, Forsberg, and Recchi?

If you believe Greenberg, yes. The Rangers were supposedly getting him while also keeping Messier, Graves, Richter and Leetch. Hextall had a nagging injury but was still a very good goaltender with name recognition. Duchesne was a Quebecois, top-end, offensive defenseman. Ricci was coming off a very good rookie season and had a bunch of upside and grit. Huffman was a good-sized D who was young, with upside. Simon was a monster, in an era where heavyweights still had value... and he had 20 goal mitts to boot. Butsayev was an intriguing prospect at the time and the Nords were having good success with other Russians like Kamensky and Gusarov, so they didn't shy away from Russians by any means. Then there was two 1st rounders (and the Flyers were going to be terrible) plus the $15 mil in cash.

Of course looking back at Forsberg today, you wonder. But this is before Forsberg or Butsayev ever stepped foot in the league. They were just both considered good prospects.

Here's why I put credence into Greenberg's report - his book "Full Spectrum" is the largest, most robust book ever written on the Flyers, I believe. It is very in-depth and, as a credentialed beat writer at the time, I highly doubt he would mention something that is inaccurate... especially something that would make the Flyers look bad.

It would be in the Flyers best interest to say, "we needed to include Forsberg to get Lindros." Fans would buy that. But for it to go public that the Flyers could have kept Forsberg if they weren't impatient, makes them look bad. I'm thinking Greenberg wouldn't put that in the book unless it came directly from a Flyers source.

Of course, without being a fly on the wall, it's impossible to know anything 100%.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Rangers win multiple cups in the 90s if they completed that trade imo.

Most of the names involved were dealt for other pieces who helped the Rangers win the Cup in '94. Here is what the rumored package was that New York had agreed to trade for Lindros:

Tony Amonte, Alexei Kovalev, Sergei Nemchinov, James Patrick and John Vanbiesbrouck, along with future first round draft picks and cash.
SOURCE: Double Dealing

Here is what the Rangers wound up getting for the players that were offered in the Lindros trade in 1992.

John Vanbiesbrouck: Traded to Vancouver for Doug Lidster (Vanbiesbrouck was left exposed in the expansion draft and taken by Florida).

Tony Amonte: Traded to Chicago for Stephane Matteau and Brian Noonan.

James Patrick: Traded to Hartford for Steve Larmer.

Sergei Nemchinov: Remained as the Rangers' top checking line center until he was dealt to Vancouver (with Brian Noonan) in '97 in order to acquire Esa Tikkanen and Russ Courtnall.

Alexei Kovalev: Scored 21 points in 23 games during the '94 Cup run and was traded four years later to Pittsburgh for Petr Nedved.

Lindros was already a beast in '94, but in his first two seasons in the NHL, the Flyers failed to qualify for the playoffs.

If the Rangers trade goes through, the makeup of the team would be entirely different, and his wingers could very well have been worse than the linemates he had in Philly.

It's an interesting talking point though. And the Nordiques were much better off with the package they ended up receiving from the Flyers. I don't know if the Avs end up winning two Cups without the players they ended up with from Philly, plus what they received when they moved some of those players in later years.

 

[jghockey]

Rangers win multiple cups in the 90s if they completed that trade imo.

The Flyers still would have still been better off not making that deal. No need to put up with all of the nonsense that the Lindroses caused.

 

[The Panther]

Forsberg was probably slightly better than Lindros at his best, and certainly had the better career. He was an awesome player. But if he had started his career in Philly, things would have been perhaps a lot different than they were. By 1995, the Flyers might have been improving but without Lindros I don't think they're a great team yet. By contrast, Forsberg joined Quebec in 1995 when they were just peaking and had the #1 offense in the League. Then they move to Colorado and win the Cup. It's a nice team to start your career on.

I think Forsberg would have been superb also in Philly, but I think the ride to the top would have been a little rougher. The other aspect of it is that by his second or third season in Philly (if not his first) he certainly would have been the go-to guy, the top-scorer, the top dog. He didn't really have to deal with this in Colorado because of Sakic's presence. They were co-#1 players for many years, and that just makes things a lot easier, takes off a lot of pressure.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The Flyers could have had Forsberg-Brind'Amour-Ricci down the middle throughout the 90s.

They had a tandem of Lindros-Brind'Amour and a rotating cast that ranged from Butsayev, Beranek, Hawerchuk, Otto, Gratton, Langkow.

The Lindros era in Philly lasted 486 games in a span of 8 years, and in only three of them did Lindros contribute to lengthy playoff runs. His last two playoff appearances in Philly lasted 5 games in '98 and 2 games in '00.

 

[jghockey]

[QUOTE="I think Forsberg would have been superb also in Philly, but I think the ride to the top would have been a little rougher. The other aspect of it is that by his second or third season in Philly (if not his first) he certainly would have been the go-to guy, the top-scorer, the top dog. He didn't really have to deal with this in Colorado because of Sakic's presence. They were co-#1 players for many years, and that just makes things a lot easier, takes off a lot of pressure.[/QUOTE]

In Colorado, Forsberg had the benefit of playing with two great wingers -- Claude Lemieux and Valeri Kamensky. Same thing in Philly, where he played with Simon Gagne and Mike Knuble. So, if he were to thrive in Philly during the 90s, he needed great wingers to complement his passing skills.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

In Colorado, Forsberg had the benefit of playing with two great wingers -- Claude Lemieux and Valeri Kamensky. Same thing in Philly, where he played with Simon Gagne and Mike Knuble. So, if he were to thrive in Philly during the 90s, he needed great wingers to complement his passing skills.

Forsberg would have played with Recchi and Renberg. While Recchi and Renberg were both RW, one of them could have shifted to the left side. In this scenario, the Flyers are too top heavy with scoring concentrated on Forsberg's line, which was the same problem the Flyers faced during Lindros tenure.

 

[The Panther]

The Lindros era in Philly lasted 486 games in a span of 8 years, and in only three of them did Lindros contribute to lengthy playoff runs. His last two playoff appearances in Philly lasted 5 games in '98 and 2 games in '00.

Sure, but remember that in his first two seasons Philly missed the playoffs. They were building up the team around him, and in the (short) 1995 season they broke out, making the playoffs comfortably, going 20-7-1 to end the regular season and then three rounds in the playoffs. In 1996 they had the 2nd-round choke against Florida (they weren't the only team to do so!) and then in 1997 made the Finals. In those three springs, Lindros scored 53 points in 43 playoff games and was +13. He was a playoff stud for those three years. He then got Hasek-ed in '98 and Stevens-ed in the second game of the 2000 playoffs.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Frankly one of the players they gave up ended up being better then Lindros anyways(Foresberg).

True, but Forsberg was a Lindros lite as well. Think about it he had nagging injuries that basically ended his career,and had overprotective parents(In 01-02 his parents begged him to stay home because of the 9/11 attacks) too 1 of whom who was a well regarded coach in Sweden, I thick Clarke would have had the same problems with the Forsbergs as well. Also think about it another way. In Colorado he was always the 2nd line center behind Sakic which means maybe he wasn't always drawing the other teams top d pair and you also have to realize the amount of leadership and experience on those late 90s early 00s AVS teams was through the roof. It really took the responsibility off of him. In Philly he would have been the number 1 guy and when his skill shoed they would have given him the C and the responsibility, something he never had anywhere else. Also his father Kent was a well regarded coach in Sweden, imagine of Clarke hires him, but fires him if things go south, what does Peter do afterwards. Also as I previously alluded to if his parents make him stay home in 01-02 guaranteed Clarke suspends him and his ending as a Flyer is just like Eric's. Basically regardless of either player Clarke was the problem here.

Like I said, the Flyers should have allowed the Rangers to have him.

If Lindros winds up in NY the situation is totally different. The biggest reason why is Messier. Messier was the captain and the go to guy on that team, in no way is Lindros ever given the responsibilities he had in Philly as early as he did. It was also rumored somewhere that Neilson had seen his problems about skating with his head down, and was gonna move him to the right wing on Messier's line as an RW with a center who carried the puck like Messier I think Lindros would have become even better than he was early on. Also I think having a GM like Neil Smith along with the great fo they had would have eased Bonnie and Carl's concerns. I think Bobby Clarke's problem in Philly was in his mind he was the best Flyer ever and he wanted Lindros to prove he was better basically an old school gm. Smith was a modern GM. I definitely think the Rangers win 2 cups maybe 3 if he goes there.

 

[jghockey]

If Lindros winds up in NY the situation is totally different. The biggest reason why is Messier. Messier was the captain and the go to guy on that team, in no way is Lindros ever given the responsibilities he had in Philly as early as he did. It was also rumored somewhere that Neilson had seen his problems about skating with his head down, and was gonna move him to the right wing on Messier's line as an RW with a center who carried the puck like Messier I think Lindros would have become even better than he was early on.

I still think that Neilson would have been fired during the 1993 season. He and Messier were clashing a lot, and Neil Smith chose to side with Messier, who already had 5 Cups under his belt.