Why did the Sharks 2006-2019 not win a cup?

[Hockeyville USA]

Imagine if the Sharks draft Suter (like the broadcast thought they would) and Parise instead of Michalek and Bernier in 2003...

 

[Hobnobs]

As a Canucks fan, those Sharks teams remind me a lot of the Canucks during that time. Thornton and Marleau were much like the Sedins, they just weren’t as good in the playoffs vs. Regular season. Kesler was the main reason we won the Nashville series in 2011 and was probably the best forward in the finals. The Sedins only feasted on a weak Niemi. Luongo though shaky at times was the biggest reason the Canucks made it to a game 7 or even the finals that run. That’s one thing the Sharks didn’t have. An elite goalie in his prime.

It a shame. Those Sharks teams were loaded with talent and they will probably go down as some of the greatest teams to never win a cup.

Bit late but I havent seen this comment until now. I had to reply because its so cherry picked and weird.

The situation between that era and sharks and the sedin era is like night and day. The biggest difference being Sharks had (for the most part) depth while the Canucks were a one line team with a 3rd line center as their #2. Yes, that 3rd line center was hot for one round vs the preds in 2011.

It's much easier to shut down a one line team like the canucks were than those Sharks teams that had Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski, Boyle, Vlasic, Burns and then the other depth pieces or players that were there for a smaller portion of time like Setoguchi, Kane, Heatley, Clowe, Hertl, Cheechoo.

That playoff warrior Kesler, his offensive production would be 8th on those sharks team during the same era. Or like a mentioned earlier, a third line center on a contender.

As for the "Sedins only feasted on Niemi". They are still by far the best canucks had those years. Producing at .8+ ppg pace while being the sole focus of the opposing teams shutdown players.

 

[Gorskyontario]

The situation between that era and sharks and the sedin era is like night and day. The biggest difference being Sharks had (for the most part) depth while the Canucks were a one line team with a 3rd line center as their #2. Yes, that 3rd line center was hot for one round vs the preds in 2011.

I hate Ryan Kesler(as a player of course) as much as anyone could. He was dirty, he would dive and he was a crybaby. That being said he put up 59-75-73 points playing with.... Which linemates? How exactly is that not a legitimate second liner? I'm not sure what alternate reality you are living in but your post makes less than zero sense. Even later on with the Ducks he had 47,53(3rd both years in scoring) and 58 points.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

If Thornton and Marleau played like Clowe and had the same approach to hockey as him, we're probably talking about a Sharks Cup or two.

 

[VanIslander]

Being led by magic men like Marleau and Thornton is probably issue #1.

@The Macho King @Voight ... you "like" this?

Defense was lacking.

 

[Hobnobs]

I hate Ryan Kesler(as a player of course) as much as anyone could. He was dirty, he would dive and he was a crybaby. That being said he put up 59-75-73 points playing with.... Which linemates? How exactly is that not a legitimate second liner? I'm not sure what alternate reality you are living in but your post makes less than zero sense. Even later on with the Ducks he had 47,53(3rd both years in scoring) and 58 points.

We are talking playoffs here bud. Which is the point of the thread not his regular season heroics.

 

[Hobnobs]

@The Macho King @Voight ... you "like" this?

Defense was lacking.

Defense was lacking for a team that during this period was one of the best at shot prevention and goals against but average in goal scoring and bottom on special teams?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I agree with the consensus that Thornton was disappointing in the playoffs. But there was one series where he got way too much critism - 2004. (Both at the time, and two decades later).

He was playing with (if I recall) cracked ribs, and really should have sat out. It was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. I remember, back then, people were criticizing Thornton for even thinking about missing some games. He would have been excoriated if he sat out the entire round, while the Bruins lost. On the other hand - he was clearly ineffective while playing. That stat line (0 points in 7 games, after a 73 point season) looks awful.

I think it's fair game to criticize Thornton for anything before and (especially) after 2004. But that's one series that I wouldn't hold against him.

 

[MadLuke]

We are talking playoffs here bud. Which is the point of the thread not his regular season heroics.

Still 2009-2017 Kesler was #14th in center playoff points, scoring like Bergeron-Carter-Marleau.

Of the 140 center with 20 playoff games or more, his .66 was 28th best, notonly a second liner but a high-end one no ? Even without the Selke player type factored in.

Scoring points in the playoff during his prime was really hard.

 

[Gorskyontario]

We are talking playoffs here bud. Which is the point of the thread not his regular season heroics.

Points wise
4 in 10(not great)
10 in 12 (4th in scoring)
19 in 25(3rd)
3 in 5(tied for 2nd)
2 in 4(tied for 2nd)

13 in 16(4th)
4 in 7 (tied for 2nd)
8 in 17 (tied for 6th), Probably burnt by here since he put up 14 points the year after.

How exactly is that a 'third line center' in your world? While playing defense and putting up between 55-75 points consistently?


Once again, your post somehow made less than zero sense.

 

[JaegerDice]

I dont think you have to overthink it.

They were a great team, but never the best team. There was always somebody a little better.

Many of the times they lost, they lost to the eventual Western Conference champ or Stanley Cup champ. I know there’s little comfort in that, but the truth is they were generally beat by the best.

 

[God]

I don't think there's a single rational argument for Kesler being a 3rd line centre during his prime from 09-14. Like, he was producing at the same rate as Bergeron, Couture, Carter, Richards, Marleau, etc. in the playoffs, and was 27th in P/G amongst centres in the regular season with at least 200 games played.

Back to the topic at hand, it just goes to show you that good teams sometimes don't win cups. We remember the ones that did, but they also usually failed in other seasons too. Lots of luck at hand. I don't think there was a singular reason why they never won. Really scary team at their prime, and their powerplay movement was absolutely nuts.

 

[EpochLink]

I hate Ryan Kesler(as a player of course) as much as anyone could. He was dirty, he would dive and he was a crybaby. That being said he put up 59-75-73 points playing with.... Which linemates? How exactly is that not a legitimate second liner? I'm not sure what alternate reality you are living in but your post makes less than zero sense. Even later on with the Ducks he had 47,53(3rd both years in scoring) and 58 points.

Kesler in 2008-2009, his line mates were Mats Sundin and Pavel Demitra (RIP)
Kesler in 2009-2011, his line mates were Michael Samuelson and Mason Raymond.

Also with the Sedins, their first 4 years in the league were nothing to write about. They sorta had a breakout year in 03-04 but nothing screamed future HOF. It wasn't until the lockout of 04-05 and the first year after the lockout, people began to realize these guys can make it.

Now they are in the HOF.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I dont think you have to overthink it.

They were a great team, but never the best team. There was always somebody a little better.

Many of the times they lost, they lost to the eventual Western Conference champ or Stanley Cup champ. I know there’s little comfort in that, but the truth is they were generally beat by the best.

Marleau and Thornton weren't as productive as they should have been in the playoffs in certain years, in part because their play styles weren't very conducive to the playoffs Goaltending wasn't quite good enough either. Toskala and Nabokov giving up bad goals in 2006 and 2007, Niemi's collapse in 2014.

Not sure if they would have beaten the Ducks in 2006 or 2007, but they had a 2-0 series lead on Edmonton in 2006 and a 2-1 series lead (with the lead in Game 4 with a minute to go) on Detroit in 2007 before falling apart.

The team simply choked in 2008 and 2009, losing to the Stars' last good team of the Modano Era and a Ducks team who had underachieved in the regular season, but the Sharks were clearly better than going into that series.

 

[EpochLink]

Marleau and Thornton weren't as productive as they should have been in the playoffs in certain years, in part because their play styles weren't very conducive to the playoffs Goaltending wasn't quite good enough either. Toskala and Nabokov giving up bad goals in 2006 and 2007, Niemi's collapse in 2014.

Not sure if they would have beaten the Ducks in 2006 or 2007, but they had a 2-0 series lead on Edmonton in 2006 and a 2-1 series lead (with the lead in Game 4 with a minute to go) on Detroit in 2007 before falling apart.

The team simply choked in 2008 and 2009, losing to the Stars' last good team of the Modano Era and a Ducks team who had underachieved in the regular season, but the Sharks were clearly better than going into that series.

The 2009 Sharks. they won the President's Trophy and bowed out in the first round to the Ducks. I remember Getzlaf outplaying Thornton that series too.

 

[Gorskyontario]

The 2009 Sharks. they won the President's Trophy and bowed out in the first round to the Ducks. I remember Getzlaf outplaying Thornton that series too.

I distinctly remember Thornton skating to the bench instead of backchecking. One of the most blatantly lazy plays I have seen

 

[JianYang]

The thing about these Sharks teams was that they were competitive for a long time but was there a year where they were clearly better than the rest of the west? I don't mean by record wise necessarily but just when you look up and down the roster and compare to others.

I suppose you can draw some parallels between the Sharks of that era, and the leafs today.

 

[Gorskyontario]

The thing about these Sharks teams was that they were competitive for a long time but was there a year where they were clearly better than the rest of the west? I don't mean by record wise necessarily but just when you look up and down the roster and compare to others.

Yes, and they choked every time.

 

[Sentinel]

Which Cup winner would they replace? I don't see them beating Detroit, Pittsburg, Chicago, LA, or Boston.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Which Cup winner would they replace? I don't see them beating Detroit, Pittsburg, Chicago, LA, or Boston.

2006 and 2007, they had the upper hand on Edmonton and Detroit in those series, before choking in part due to goaltending gaffes. 2009, they won the Presidents Trophy and didn't show up very well in the Anaheim series until it was too late. 2014, up 3-0 on Los Angeles, made Quick look pretty mortal, and then collapsed for the reverse sweep.

Any of those years for sure. I think they had a great shot in 2019 before being beaten and battered to death in the St Louis series.

 

[Sentinel]

2006 and 2007, they had the upper hand on Edmonton and Detroit in those series, before choking in part due to goaltending gaffes. 2009, they won the Presidents Trophy and didn't show up very well in the Anaheim series until it was too late. 2014, up 3-0 on Los Angeles, made Quick look pretty mortal, and then collapsed for the reverse sweep.

Any of those years for sure. I think they had a great shot in 2019 before being beaten and battered to death in the St Louis series.

I guess I can see them beating Carolina in 2006. But not Anaheim 2007 or LA 2014. Quick may look mortal... until he doesn't and turns into a brick wall.

 

[The Macho King]

The thing about these Sharks teams was that they were competitive for a long time but was there a year where they were clearly better than the rest of the west? I don't mean by record wise necessarily but just when you look up and down the roster and compare to others.

I suppose you can draw some parallels between the Sharks of that era, and the leafs today.

On one hand - only one team gets to win the Cup in any given season.

On the other - that's also what you're playing for, and they had a lot of kicks at the can and other than a gentleman's six gamer, never even sniffed it. That's why some of these guys get big bumps for their playoff resumes, while others get dinged. Because oftentimes the "best" team isn't the one that wins. If you get that long as a good to great team and don't come out of it with a ring? It's objectively a disappointment. And if your star players don't rise to the level needed to get there? They shoulder the blame.

I do think this board is mostly pretty damn nuanced when we talk about playoff performances. Ray Bourque isn't dinged for only winning one Cup - we recognize the situation he was in. McDavid is generally seen as a positive playoff performer despite not even making a Finals because he performs and the team around him just can't stand up to the pressure. Same with MacKinnon until he finally broke through.