Why Aren't Gilbert Perreault's Numbers Better?

[GlitchMarner]

Not to suggest he wasn't a great player, but for someone who is considered one of the best skaters and stickhandlers of his era (if not all-time), his scoring stats don't quite jive with his reputation.

He played during a very high-scoring era and with talented linemates (Richard Martin and Rene Robert) and only twice topped 100 points even though his line was deployed heavily if not entirely for offense while the Luce line was relied on more defensively.

One thing that jumps out to me is that he "only" managed 59 points in 56 games, 73 points in 62 games and 76 points in 77 games in the three seasons following his 106 point season in 1980 despite the fact that scoring across the League was extremely high in the early 80s. 1982 was the season Dennis Maruk put up 136 points.

Also, if you compare him to other highly skilled centres from the 1970s and 1980s, all of them eclipsed his career-high mark of 113 points by a substantial margin at some point. Dionne had more than 120 points numerous times. Trottier had three seasons where he scored more than 120 points, topping out at 134 points. Savard and Hawerchuk hit or surpassed 130 points. Stastny had three seasons above 120 points, peaking at 139 points. Yzerman dropped 155 points in '89. Even Nilsson surpassed 130 points once.

I have heard the theory that his game was better suited for larger ice. His playoff scoring stats are quite good.

Click to read more...

 

[MadLuke]

One possible aspect mentionned sometime was Buffalo having a bit of a smaller ice (going into the larger the ice better as intl ice seem to suggest), than regular.

He was third on the road points during his prime

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vs 5th at home:

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at even strength, 7th at home, 3rd on the road.

 

[Dingo]

I don't know the answer, as I never watched him play until the 80s, but have always noticed his lack of production vs. his legacy. Once third place in points, once 4th in points per game. I'd be interested in a list of names of players who placed as good as third one time in their career... maybe ill go look, now.

 

[MadLuke]

Hawerchuck-Savard are not far top 10 wise.

Perreault
3-4-5-8-9
Savard
3-3-6-7-7
Hawerchuck
3-4-7-9

Yzerman is not that big of an upgrade in that regard
3-3-4-7-7-10

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm out to dinner and have had a bottle of champagne already...but I've wondered this too and thought, "did he have an outlet passer of any merit"...? Gueveremont (sp?) and what else?

I'd be curious to know if he had more goals that he's involved with where a d-man isn't than other stars...or something...

 

[Neutrinos]

I had heard the smaller ice surface theory before, but with a little research, I discovered Chicago's ice surface was actually smaller

Also, Perreault had 719 points in 590 home games, while his production dropped to 607 points in 601 career games on the road

 

[MadLuke]

Also, Perreault had 719 points in 590 home games, while his production dropped to 607 points in 601 career road games

It could be expected to score less on the road like everyone (specially when the team is first line heavy), dropping less than expected is what people would be talking about.

During his prime

R: 269 in 234g
H: 315 in 232g

Clarke
R: 240 in 229
H: 316 in 234

Lafleur
R: 334 in 231
H: 432 in 231

Dionne
R: 331 in 235
H: 352 in 235

Drop
Dionne...: .94
Perreault: .85
Clarke...: .78
Lafleur..: .77

Chicago, Boston I think also ? Smaller ice was not that uncommon, so the effect would not be necessarily giant

 

[The Panther]

I would love to spend some time watching Perreault, who retired just before I started watching NHL.

Seeing him in brief clips and such, he always looks very impressive, especially his skating.

We shouldn't forget that some of his legend derives not only from Buffalo but from...

 

[GlitchMarner]

Hawerchuck-Savard are not far top 10 wise.

Perreault
3-4-5-8-9
Savard
3-3-6-7-7
Hawerchuck
3-4-7-9

Yzerman is not that big of an upgrade in that regard
3-3-4-7-7-10

If you look at top ten scoring finishes, he looks quite strong.

However, adjusted numbers don't look quite as flattering (for what it's worth).

Only one season above 90 adjusted points according to HockeyReference.

Furthermore, he doesn't have that signature peak season that so many other superstar centres do (some have more than one). Maybe he's simply like my guy Sundin in that regard: Not a big peak performer (in the NHL) but a guy who nonetheless holds his own if you look at some other things.

 

[carjackmalone]

Didn’t he lose Martin and Robert at the start of the 80’s not to mention playing under Scotty Bowman

 

[frisco]

A couple of things about Perreault. He was consistent. At least 0.92 points/game first fifteen years in the league (0.80 and 0.86 the last two). 12 top 40 finishes. Tied for 18th all-time.

He didn't have the alpha mentality of racking up points. If the game was decided, he didn't drive himself to put up numbers. He was one of those guys where they likely couldn't tell you how many points they had in a season. Also, outside of his rookie and 2nd-year season played both sides of the puck very well.

Gretzky (to his credit) and others were of the mindset of if they had four points they wanted five and if they got five then they'd put the peddle down for six, etc., Perreault was the opposite.

One of the very few top scorers to have higher point/game in the playoffs than the regular season. Also, elevated his game internationally. Not necessarily saying he was ultra-clutch but he had a feel for bigger moments.

My Best-Carey

 

[RegDunlop]

I would love to spend some time watching Perreault, who retired just before I started watching NHL.

Seeing him in brief clips and such, he always looks very impressive, especially his skating.

We shouldn't forget that some of his legend derives not only from Buffalo but from...

One of my favorite players back then. Perhaps I was too young to realize his numbers don't compare, but I always thought of him as a superstar

 

[MadLuke]

Maybe he's simply like my guy Sundin in that regard: Not a big peak performer (in the NHL) but a guy who nonetheless holds his own if you look at some other things.

Good one, Sundin

Top 10: 4-7 (the 4th in a weak year arguably, Adam Oates was getting close to 65 and was just 2 pts behind), but when you look at a window of seasons he look really good.

Perreault had strong consistency

 

[decma]

The surprising thing to me about Perreault's scoring numbers isn't the decline after the 1979-80 season (he was 30 (at a time when fewer players posted big numbers in their 30s), injuries started to become a problem, Bowman was his new coach, etc.), but the relative lack of production between his two 100-point seasons.

Here are his points per 80 games from 74-75 through 79-80 (he turned 24 near the beginning of the 74-75 season).

74/75 (age 24): 113
75/76 (age 25): 113
76/77 (age 26): 95
77/78 (age 27): 90
78/79 (age 28): 86
79/80 (age 29): 106

Nothing wrong with the scoring totals in his age 26 to 28 seasons, but they were a little disappointing given his age 24 and 25 seasons.

I don't think any personnel changes explain the dip. Martin missed slightly more time between 76/77 and 78/79 than he had the prior two seasons, but Robert and Korab (the top scoring d-man on each of those teams) played about as many games per season from 76/77 to 78/79 as they did the prior two seasons.

 

[MadLuke]

Seem like the difference is heavily happening on the powerplay (every season after 1975 he scored enough point at even strength to push him at 100pts or more if we would have scored 38 on the pp like that year)

EVP:

74/75 (age 24): 58
75/76 (age 25): 70
76/77 (age 26): 63
77/78 (age 27): 65
78/79 (age 28): 62
79/80 (age 29): 67

PP points

74/75 (age 24): 38
75/76 (age 25): 43
76/77 (age 26): 30
77/78 (age 27): 24
78/79 (age 28): 23
79/80 (age 29): 39

Was there a difference in a key piece here, a quaterback being there vs not or finisher around the net ?

Guevremont had 22 PPP in 76, go down to 12-13 with Guevremont and Korab in 77-78, Guevremont does not play much in 78-79 and in 79-80 someone like Boxmeer arrive and things shift back suddenly.

Maybe he was one average offensive PP Dmen to be a flirting with 100 pts player all along.

 

[decma]

Seem like the difference is heavily happening on the powerplay (every season after 1975 he scored enough point at even strength to push him at 100pts or more if we would have scored 38 on the pp like that year)

EVP:

74/75 (age 24): 58
75/76 (age 25): 70
76/77 (age 26): 63
77/78 (age 27): 65
78/79 (age 28): 62
79/80 (age 29): 67

PP points

74/75 (age 24): 38
75/76 (age 25): 43
76/77 (age 26): 30
77/78 (age 27): 24
78/79 (age 28): 23
79/80 (age 29): 39

Was there a difference in a key piece here, a quaterback being there and not or finisher around the net ?

Guevremont had 22 PPP in 76, go down to 12-13 with Guevremont and Korab in 77-78, Guevremont does not play much in 78-79 and in 79-80 someone like Boxmeer arrive and things shift back suddenly.

Maybe he was one average offensive PP Dmen to be a flirting with 100 pts player all along.

Yes, looks like the decline in Perreault's PP scoring was largely responsible in the overall scoring drop.

Part of the decline in his PP scoring was attributable to Buf simply having fewer PP opportunities (PPO). But his PPP per PP opportunity also declined.

74/75: 303 team PPO, Perreault had a PP point on 12.5% of PPO (despite missing 12 games)
75/76: 287 PPO, scored a point on 15.0% of PPO
76/77: 262 PPO, 11.5%
77/78: 234 PPO, 10.3%
78/79: 267 PPO, 8.6%
79/80: 275 PPO, 10.5%

If he had kept his PP scoring to 15% of team PPO (the level from 75/76), he would have had an extra 9 to 17 points each season, even with the drop in number of PP opportunitites.

 

[overpass]

Seem like the difference is heavily happening on the powerplay (every season after 1975 he scored enough point at even strength to push him at 100pts or more if we would have scored 38 on the pp like that year)

EVP:

74/75 (age 24): 58
75/76 (age 25): 70
76/77 (age 26): 63
77/78 (age 27): 65
78/79 (age 28): 62
79/80 (age 29): 67

PP points

74/75 (age 24): 38
75/76 (age 25): 43
76/77 (age 26): 30
77/78 (age 27): 24
78/79 (age 28): 23
79/80 (age 29): 39

Was there a difference in a key piece here, a quaterback being there vs not or finisher around the net ?

Guevremont had 22 PPP in 76, go down to 12-13 with Guevremont and Korab in 77-78, Guevremont does not play much in 78-79 and in 79-80 someone like Boxmeer arrive and things shift back suddenly.

Maybe he was one average offensive PP Dmen to be a flirting with 100 pts player all along.

I believe Rene Robert played the point on the PP. So I would say maybe the Buffalo power play was lacking weapons up front. Rick Martin didn't score that much on the PP either for someone with his reputation as a goal scorer.

Or maybe the fault was in Perreault himself to some degree. Maybe he didn't quite have the vision and playmaking of the top PP centres.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm going to say lazy.

Played better in bigger games, playoffs and international.

Consider, Perreault and Craig Ramsay both played for Buffalo over the same time frame. 14 seasons together.

Perreault was a +41 in his career, Ramsay +324.

Even in the playoffs, Perreault -21, Ramsay +5.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Poster child for eye test doesn't equal production?

 

[Nick Hansen]

I'm going to say lazy.

Played better in bigger games, playoffs and international.

Consider, Perreault and Craig Ramsey both played for Buffalo over the same time frame. 14 seasons together.

Perreault was a +41 in his career, Ramsay +324.

Even in the playoffs, Perreault -21, Ramsay +5.

That's an interesting subject for a thread - surprising or noteworthy +/- differences between players on the same team for an extended period (let's say atleast five seasons) of time.

This one definitely made me go 'huh'.

 

[Crosby2010]

He is about as good of an option when you look at a player that looks a lot better on the ice than his stats show. And by the way, nothing wrong with his stats either. His prime was the 1970s, after 1980 he was in his 30s. Still had 90 points in 1984, not bad. But you are talking about a guy who played a ton of hockey from 1970-'80 and then are wondering why he was scoring less in the 1980s. Age does that.

113 points at his peak is still pretty good. No one other than Esposito had cracked 150 at this point. For me I think Perreault might have maybe enjoyed the game too much? That may not sound right, but what I mean is that he always seemed to have this happy go lucky way of playing the game. Almost as if it was fun for him to skate around with the puck. Maybe if he drove to the net more he has more points? I don't know, but someone hit the nail on the head here and said that maybe his intensity wasn't quite as high as others.

That being said, he was great in the playoffs and was awesome all three times he played for Canada. 1972 I have no idea why they didn't let him play more than two games. He made highlight reel plays that led to goals in both games. He was a perfect fit against the Soviets. Maybe Sinden didn't like his defense at that time, I don't know. But he is arguably Canada's best forward in the 1976 Canada Cup, and was having a tournament for the ages in the 1981 Canada Cup before hurting his foot. Also, he seemed to thrive against the other teams that played like him. The Habs and Dryden always seemed to have a hard time against him, but it seemed the Flyers and Bruins may have had his number more by being more physical. In reality he would have been perfect as a Montreal Canadien. Either way, one of the prettiest players to ever watch.

 

[carjackmalone]

After Robert,Martin And Danny Gare were shipped out who actually replaced their Roles on the team?

Dave Andreychuk
John Tucker
Phil Housley (converted to forward around 84-86)
Mike Foligno

Not the greatest of supporting casts for Perrault

 

[Boxscore]

I'm out to dinner and have had a bottle of champagne already...but I've wondered this too and thought, "did he have an outlet passer of any merit"...? Gueveremont (sp?) and what else?

I'd be curious to know if he had more goals that he's involved with where a d-man isn't than other stars...or something...

Interesting point, and I thought about that immediately as well. But then I considered Bobby Clarke... he bested Perreault's season high, twice, despite not having a D producer. Clarke also played world class defense and didn't take risks offensively. This is interesting with Perreault. Visually, he was so talented and dazzling, one could expect Lafleur or Dionne numbers.

 

[MadLuke]

Not the greatest of supporting casts for Perrault

It is a bit sad that you can list 2 Hall of Famer (and not their old past version of their prime) and say not great supporting cast.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Poster child for eye test doesn't equal production?

This seems to be at least part of it. Certain players get a legacy boost because they were entertaining to watch. I would name names, but it would derail the thread. Suffice it to say, there are one or two guys in each generation who get viewed through an extra-rosy lens relative to what they produced.