Speculation: Who is a good General Manager? Perhaps it's the luckiest one?

ChazzMichaelMichaels

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Jul 10, 2014
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I don't disagree, but what stage are we at? When you consider where the leafs are at, their experience, the holes that have been filled, and contracts signed; should we expect more from them? Is it reasonable to expect a playoff series win? Perhaps the signing of Tavares has created too much too soon in terms of expectations.

I am willing to give Dubas some time. When I say he's "learning on the job", I don't mean it in the most critical way. He seems to be adjusting in places. That's fine.

I think were at the very early stages still. Bringing in Tavares when we did wasn't perfect timing at all but those players, at that age at UFA, being from T.O, playing the most important position on the ice, is just not gonna happen again. It's also unfortunate that the group of forwards is developed ahead of the d-corps. Ideally you'd have a solid, more advanced, older d-corps to bring the 3 young kids into but that's no ones fault, it's just the way the drafts went.

Everyone is so fast to judge the team when the 3 key players to the core haven't even played one season out of their ELCs and have so much more to grow just blame it all on them and the GM.

This team has so much more developing to do and it's gonna take a bit more time but it will come. We don't have a single contract on the team that is an anchor or can't be moved anymore since Zaitsev and Marleau got moved. Our biggest issue this past season to me was depth scoring down the line-up as it completely dried up when we needed it after we had injuries. If we can find ways to add to our depth I think we're in a great position going forward.

It's interesting, I was watching the Russian Five documentary last night and it's funny how basically all good teams get painted with the same brush every.single.time. Yzerman and the Russians were too soft, didn't have what it takes to win. Yzerman was 30! Guess what happened after a handful of seasons? How about the Last Dance documentary (The MJ/Chicago Bulls), how many times did they have to take swings and hear from the same damn voices that they were talented but didn't have what it takes? What happened after a handful of seasons once they got older? What about Ovechkin and the Capitals after years and years?

Maybe hockey fans get too caught up in the Chicago/Pens championships.

To me, having the big deals "age" a bit and take up a lower % of the cap was gonna make this all work out a lot better. Now with the pandemic, the cap not rising presents the biggest hurdle to Dubas and Co.
 
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ChazzMichaelMichaels

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Jul 10, 2014
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I see the good and bad.

He is able to extract value out of everything it seems; Euro UFAs, minor trades and later draft picks.

Good trades overall like Muzzin, Hyman, Campbell/Clifford, pick deals, etc.

Kadri for Barrie/Kerfoot turned out bad in hindsight, but was lauded around here when first made. In hindsight, the requirements for a 3C in return in addition to a top 4 D might have diminished the value of the D we were able to acquire, which IMO was a mistake.

Dropped the ball on the term of the Matthews contract and the AAV on Marner, but thats been beaten to death.

Unpopular opinion, he did well through the entirety of the Nylander negotiations and we are already seeing the dividends.

Some interesting topics here.
I know we'll obviously never find out but I'm not convinced any other GM would have been able to do much better than Dubas did with either Matthews/Marner. The whole sequence of events was an absolute perfect storm. Between the order the 3 went in (if the order was different these deals would have been so much better looking), Nylander not wanting to get taken advantage of by going first, Arizona offer sheets looming forcing Dubas's hand to sign Matthews and give Marner leverage. The whole Nylander thing is interesting, everyone wanted Dubas to be tougher but he literally held out Nylander longer than any GM has held out a player in modern times and got a great deal in doing so. I think holding strong vs Marner would have been a better solution in hindsight. Going from those ELC to having them among the highest paid players in the league is a huge change/challenge financially to a roster's construction.

Kadri for Barrie was a boo-boo. Period. But at the time I liked it. We couldn't ice the blueline we had, we didn't have cap to get one so it had to be cap going out. Kadri had the cap at the position we were over-loaded at. He HAD to get a top 4 RHD AND a C (to replace Kadri), he did that with some pretty impressive cap maneuvering (Barrie retention). If only we knew Holl would end up playing as well as he did this wouldn't have ever happened. Too bad Babcock didn't play him the season before.
 
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The Podium

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I think were at the very early stages still. Bringing in Tavares when we did wasn't perfect timing at all but those players, at that age at UFA, being from T.O, playing the most important position on the ice, is just not gonna happen again. It's also unfortunate that the group of forwards is developed ahead of the d-corps. Ideally you'd have a solid, more advanced, older d-corps to bring the 3 young kids into but that's no ones fault, it's just the way the drafts went.

Everyone is so fast to judge the team when the 3 key players to the core haven't even played one season out of their ELCs and have so much more to grow just blame it all on them and the GM.

This team has so much more developing to do and it's gonna take a bit more time but it will come. We don't have a single contract on the team that is an anchor or can't be moved anymore since Zaitsev and Marleau got moved. Our biggest issue this past season to me was depth scoring down the line-up as it completely dried up when we needed it after we had injuries. If we can find ways to add to our depth I think we're in a great position going forward.

It's interesting, I was watching the Russian Five documentary last night and it's funny how basically all good teams get painted with the same brush every.single.time. Yzerman and the Russians were too soft, didn't have what it takes to win. Yzerman was 30! Guess what happened after a handful of seasons? How about the Last Dance documentary (The MJ/Chicago Bulls), how many times did they have to take swings and hear from the same damn voices that they were talented but didn't have what it takes? What happened after a handful of seasons once they got older? What about Ovechkin and the Capitals after years and years?

Maybe hockey fans get too caught up in the Chicago/Pens championships.

To me, having the big deals "age" a bit and take up a lower % of the cap was gonna make this all work out a lot better. Now with the pandemic, the cap not rising presents the biggest hurdle to Dubas and Co.

Yup, MJ took 7 years and was the GOAT. A lot of inpatience around here. Dubas is a failure to some after 20 months on the job.
 

Garthinater

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Nov 22, 2015
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I think the work Dubas has done thus far, this early, has been very impressive.

What has impressed you exactly?

You do realize that with lou we set a franchise record in points (105) and within 2 years dubas has us almost missing the playoffs, right?

Also, with the pandemic, the cap might not go up at all. Meaning we are definitely in a bad situation with the amount of money dubas keeps throwing around.

I dont consider that "impressive".
 
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The Podium

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What has impressed you exactly?

You do realize that with lou we set a franchise record in points (105) and within 2 years dubas has us almost missing the playoffs, right?

Also, with the pandemic, the cap might not go up at all. Meaning we are definitely in a bad situation with the amount of money dubas keeps throwing around.

I dont consider that "impressive".

The team was set to be downgraded regardless who was in charge. I hate that argument... A lot of UFAs, players needing new contracts, etc. There was huge turnover required.

I prefer what Dubas did over where Lou was headed. But I agree it wasnt "very impressive", at least not yet
 
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4thline

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Jul 18, 2014
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What has impressed you exactly?

You do realize that with lou we set a franchise record in points (105) and within 2 years dubas has us almost missing the playoffs, right?
.

Keeping the core together was impressive. Lou showed no signs of having a plan to do it (had almost a year to sign Nylander) and based on his early work on the Island he wouldn't have. That's why he's gone.

Based on Keefe's pace as coach we were going to end up around 97 points. 8 point difference
6 point swing based on shoot out luck alone
1/4 of the season spent falling out of the gate due to coaching
1/4 of the season with half the defense out


We had a better roster this season despite not having the advantage of Matthews/Marner/Nylander at like 5m combined hit (including bonuses) , but less things went right.
 

ChazzMichaelMichaels

Registered User
Jul 10, 2014
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What has impressed you exactly?

You do realize that with lou we set a franchise record in points (105) and within 2 years dubas has us almost missing the playoffs, right?

Also, with the pandemic, the cap might not go up at all. Meaning we are definitely in a bad situation with the amount of money dubas keeps throwing around.

I dont consider that "impressive".

Oh boy, k here we go, transactions I've liked, trying to remember it all.

Traded Kessel for Kapanen, 1st round pick (used to get Andersen)
Draft shuffling I like - Moved back from 29 to 34 + got Dermott/Dzierkals - shuffled back from 25 to 29 and drafted Sandin - SDA ... of course this doesn't always work (24 to 29)
Traded for Hyman
Traded for Muzzin
Signed Tavares
Signed Tyler Ennis
Signed Trevor Moore to a cheap extension
Signed Justin Holl to an extension
signed Engvall to an extension
signed Kapanen to an extension
signed Johnsson to an extension
Locked up the big 3 guys coming off their ELCs
signed Mikheyev
signed Spezza
Traded Matt Martin
Moved Zaitsev's cap hit
Moved Marleau's cap hit
Traded for Campbell and Clifford
Fired Babcock and hired Keefe
Muzzin Extension
Signed Barabanov

Things I haven't liked:

Kadri trade - Admit I liked it at the time
Overpaid Marner by like .. a mill?
Took too long to replace Hutch
Needs to add a top 4

He's been a super busy guy for only being on the job for 2 seasons and not having much roster flexability.
 
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ACC1224

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Aug 19, 2002
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History of hockey trades by general manager Kyle Dubas - NHL Trade Tracker

** Lou Lam's trades if anyone cares to compare - History of hockey trades by general manager Lou Lamoriello - NHL Trade Tracker

I rate him just over .500 on trades. (I didn't list the ones I'm indifferent on)
Don't think he's done a great job on contracts either.


Liked
Calle Rosen
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
February 24, 2020
Michael Hutchinson
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jack Campbell
Kyle Clifford
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
February 5, 2020
Trevor Moore
2020 3rd round pick
2021 conditional 3rd round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Nic Petan
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
February 25, 2019
Par Lindholm
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jake Muzzin
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
January 28, 2019
Carl Grundstrom
Sean Durzi
2019 1st round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Michael Hutchinson
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
December 29, 2018
2020 5th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Disliked
Ottawa Senators acquireDateToronto Maple Leafs acquire
Ottawa_Senators.gif
Nikita Zaitsev
Connor Brown
Michael Carcone
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
July 1, 2019
Cody Ceci
Ben Harpur
Aaron Luchuk
2020 3rd round pick
Toronto_Maple_Leafs.gif
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Carolina Hurricanes acquireDateToronto Maple Leafs acquire
Carolina_Hurricanes.gif
Patrick Marleau
2020 conditional 1st round pick
2020 7th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
June 22, 2019
2020 6th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Vancouver Canucks acquireDateToronto Maple Leafs acquire
Vancouver_Canucks.gif
Josh Leivo
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
December 3, 2018
Michael Carcone
Toronto_Maple_Leafs.gif
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Initially liked, grew to dislike
Toronto Maple Leafs acquireDateColorado Avalanche acquire
Toronto_Maple_Leafs.gif
Tyson Barrie
Alex Kerfoot
2020 6th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
July 1, 2019
Nazem Kadri
Calle Rosen
2020 3rd round pick
Colorado_Avalanche.gif
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

The Podium

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
22,958
10,222
Toronto
History of hockey trades by general manager Kyle Dubas - NHL Trade Tracker

I rate him just over .500 on trades. (I didn't list the ones I'm indifferent on)
Don't think he's done a great job on contracts either.


Liked
Calle Rosen
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
February 24, 2020
Michael Hutchinson
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jack Campbell
Kyle Clifford
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
February 5, 2020
Trevor Moore
2020 3rd round pick
2021 conditional 3rd round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Nic Petan
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
February 25, 2019
Par Lindholm
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jake Muzzin
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
January 28, 2019
Carl Grundstrom
Sean Durzi
2019 1st round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Michael Hutchinson
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
December 29, 2018
2020 5th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Disliked
Ottawa Senators acquireDateToronto Maple Leafs acquire
Ottawa_Senators.gif
Nikita Zaitsev
Connor Brown
Michael Carcone
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
July 1, 2019
Cody Ceci
Ben Harpur
Aaron Luchuk
2020 3rd round pick
Toronto_Maple_Leafs.gif
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Carolina Hurricanes acquireDateToronto Maple Leafs acquire
Carolina_Hurricanes.gif
Patrick Marleau
2020 conditional 1st round pick
2020 7th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
June 22, 2019
2020 6th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Vancouver Canucks acquireDateToronto Maple Leafs acquire
Vancouver_Canucks.gif
Josh Leivo
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
December 3, 2018
Michael Carcone
Toronto_Maple_Leafs.gif
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Initially liked, grew to dislike
Toronto Maple Leafs acquireDateColorado Avalanche acquire
Toronto_Maple_Leafs.gif
Tyson Barrie
Alex Kerfoot
2020 6th round pick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
July 1, 2019
Nazem Kadri
Calle Rosen
2020 3rd round pick
Colorado_Avalanche.gif
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Just curious, what didnt you like about the Zaitsev deal?

Also I dont think anyone was happy with the Marleau deal but it was a necessary evil unfortunately. Boston paid a similar price to rid themselves of Backes.

I also blame Babacock for the Leivo deal. Dubas built some good will with the player/agent by staying true to his word and dealing him when Babacock decided to keep him glued to the bench.
 
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ACC1224

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Just curious, what didnt you like about the Zaitsev deal?

Also I dont think anyone was happy with the Marleau deal but it was a necessary evil unfortunately. Boston paid a similar price to rid themselves of Backes.

I also blame Babacock for the Leivo deal. Dubas built some good will with the player/agent by staying true to his word and dealing him when Babacock decided to keep him glued to the bench.
I didn't like the returns in the Zaitsev and Leivo deals.
I didn't like the inclusion of the 1st in the Marleau deal.
 

The Podium

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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I didn't like the returns in the Zaitsev and Leivo deals.
I didn't like the inclusion of the 1st in the Marleau deal.

Zaitsev wasnt a deal for a return, it was to rid us of a terrible contract. The fact that the there was no retention and the highest valued player we had to sacrifice was Connor Brown is a win

Leivo was a goodwill move because Babcock is an idiot. I dont blame Dubas for that. Unfortunate, but hopefully the players recognize the move and respect him for it.

The Marleau deal sucked but it was a necessary evil. Boston doing the same thing pretty much confirms it. Had Marleau played out the year in Carolina the 1st likely isnt included. But the caveat that he HAD to be bought out tied Dubas' hands. Selling ownership on 4.25 mill in dollars and 6.25 dead capspace isnt easy for the acquiring team.

In the end, Dubas' "Bad moves" were rectifying Lou's bad judgement on contract length and Babcocks mishandling of young players.
 

ACC1224

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Zaitsev wasnt a deal for a return, it was to rid us of a terrible contract. The fact that the highest valued player there was no retention and we had to sacrifice was Connor Brown is a win

Leivo was a goodwill move because Babcock is an idiot. I dont blame Dubas for that. Unfortunate, but hopefully the players recognize the move and respect him for it.

The Marleau deal sucked but it was a necessary evil. Boston doing the same thing pretty much confirms it.
Yes, I've heard all of that before and don't agree with any of it.
I expect better. Anyone could make moves where 'they have no choice' or 'nothing could be done'
Find a better way, set the standard not just follow some others teams bad moves.
 

Cor

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Jun 24, 2012
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AEF
I didn't like the returns in the Zaitsev and Leivo deals.
I didn't like the inclusion of the 1st in the Marleau deal.

Leivo deal was done because Dubas promised to send him somewhere he can play because Babcock and Lou spent the previous two seasons not letting him play.

Zaitsev contract was about getting out of 5 years of Zaitsev’s deal. The fact we got a 3rd rounder out of it is noodles.


I don’t even think Dubas liked the Marleau deal. But it was a necessary thing. Heck, even Babcock admitted that he and Lou knew the third year would be an issue
 
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4thline

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The Marleau deal sucked but it was a necessary evil. Boston doing the same thing pretty much confirms it. Had Marleau played out the year in Carolina the 1st likely isnt included. But the caveat that he HAD to be bought out tied Dubas' hands. Selling ownership on 4.25 mill in dollars and 6.25 dead capspace isnt easy for the acquiring team.

Marleau's San Jose ultimatum absolutely kicked us in the teeth. retained 50% and willing to play he had some small value. Once he was SJ or nothing our hands were tied. The only real question was if Johnsson could have been substituted into the deal (I think anyone would happily trade him for a 1st at the draft) but that is 100% based in hindsight, Hyman was hurt, Soup was a ?, and Engvall wasn't on the radar yet.
 

ChazzMichaelMichaels

Registered User
Jul 10, 2014
839
691
Leivo deal was done because Dubas promised to send him somewhere he can play because Babcock and Lou spent the previous two seasons not letting him play.

Zaitsev contract was about getting out of 5 years of Zaitsev’s deal. The fact we got a 3rd rounder out of it is noodles.


I don’t even think Dubas liked the Marleau deal. But it was a necessary thing. Heck, even Babcock admitted that he and Lou knew the third year would be an issue

I bet that Marleau deal absolutely haunts Dubas. Tough one to swallow. Getting out of the Marleau and Zaitsev deals were absolutely essential.
 
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ChazzMichaelMichaels

Registered User
Jul 10, 2014
839
691
Yes, I've heard all of that before and don't agree with any of it.
I expect better. Anyone could make moves where 'they have no choice' or 'nothing could be done'
Find a better way, set the standard not just follow some others teams bad moves.

I don't think there is a single GM that could have met your expectations on those deals then.
 

Joey Hoser

Registered User
Jan 8, 2008
14,232
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Guelph
Yes, I've heard all of that before and don't agree with any of it.
I expect better. Anyone could make moves where 'they have no choice' or 'nothing could be done'
Find a better way, set the standard not just follow some others teams bad moves.

How else could you get around the Marleau thing? I had accepted half-way through the season before, that we were going to have to dump him and pay whatever it takes. I was actually kinda surprised and relieved they had the balls to do it.
 

Cor

I am a bot
Jun 24, 2012
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AEF
I bet that Marleau deal absolutely haunts Dubas. Tough one to swallow. Getting out of the Marleau and Zaitsev deals were absolutely essential.

It’s not like Dubas ran to the draft table and was like “OMG Shanny! Carolina will take Marleau for a first!!!”

It was a deal done so we could keep Kapanen and Johnsson. We will likely flip one or both into assets this offseason, whenever that may be.
 
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ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
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I don't think there is a single GM that could have met your expectations on those deals then.
IMO, you and some others have too low an expectation.
A GM in the NHL is one of the most exclusive jobs there is.
It's not suppose to be easy and should come with very high expectations.
Any monkey could have thrown a first to get rid of Marleau.
 

The Podium

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
22,958
10,222
Toronto
Yes, I've heard all of that before and don't agree with any of it.
I expect better. Anyone could make moves where 'they have no choice' or 'nothing could be done'
Find a better way, set the standard not just follow some others teams bad moves.

Unfortunately I dont think better would have been possible... I dont think any GM would have met your expectations if you thought any of those pieces had value
 

Spargon

Registered User
May 31, 2019
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IMO, you and some others have too low an expectation.
A GM in the NHL is one of the most exclusive jobs there is.
It's not suppose to be easy and should come with very high expectations.
Any monkey could have thrown a first to get rid of Marleau.

I wish a GM did a "take a armchair GM to work day" and I would love to see people like you show them how it's done. I would very much enjoy the video of other GM's laughing at you and telling you to get bent when you make your demands.

It's so easy to talk about how things should have gone without being in the situation yourself.
 

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