Which group of prospects do you like more?
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Henkka
Registered User
Everyone which wasn't a Jim Nill & Joe MacDonell pick and developed by Curt Fraser.
Assuming the question is "at the time" I think it's easily 2011. We thought we were in great shape after that D heavy draft. Could add Jensen and Almquist to that list as well.
Syckle78
Registered User
Weird question. I already know what the first group turned into so I currently like the second group more? We were all really high on the first group and it turned to a pile of nothing so not sure the point of the question.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Pavels Dog
Registered User
I never felt much hype for anyone in the first group, but I'll be honest and say I didn't pay as much attention to prospects back then since the actual team was still very good.
Sproul was interesting offensively but always had huge questionmarks defensively.
Ouellet was promising but we knew his skating needed to improve.
Marchenko was never special.
Had no hype for Kindl and Smith at any point, never liked what I saw from them.
All that said, the second group is not established enough for me to feel genuine hype just yet. But include Hicketts/Sambrook and I'd easily say the second group contains more promise in my eyes.
PelagicJoe
Registered User
WingedWheel1987
Registered User
Smith, XO and Sproul were getting the same "penciling into lineups a few years from now" treatment before they actually played a single NHL game that the latest batch of prospects are getting.
It's really easy to manufacture hype.
But group B looks like a marginally better group.
It's really easy to manufacture hype.
But group B looks like a marginally better group.
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Henkka
Registered User
I think there was some good things on him (it was good gamble for a late pick), but two knee injuries and one ankle injury did regress his development.
Cyborg Yzerberg
Registered User
I haven't liked our prospect pool of defensemen ever since I starting following our development system(2008). Ken Holland has never properly addressed replacing Nick Lidstrom, and of all those guys, only Smith was believed to be a legit top pairing guy.(as of 2008, that is.)
So the question is interesting, because reinforces how putrid our drafting has been.
So the question is interesting, because reinforces how putrid our drafting has been.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Well we already know the first group flamed out badly so is anyone really going to say they'll take a known failure over an unknown? It's a ridiculous comparison. Let's also keep in mind Sproul was CHL d-man of the year, Smith was a Hobey Baker finalist and Jensen was the d-man of the year for his conference. So was DeKeyser. So it's not like none of those guys developed after being drafted. Their development was very good. Why did so many really good d-men prospects all pretty much bust?
Why did it happen around the time they came to Grand Rapids? Could it have something to do with the fact they were all coached by Jeff Blashill?
It amazes how people can sit here and say "this year will be different!" after 18 years of just unbelievably mediocre drafting and development. Hell, take Hakan Andersson out of the mix since he's never given better than a third round pick and it looks flat out awful.
But hey, this last group hasn't busted yet so how about that Red Wings scouting department!!!!!
Henkka
Registered User
It's the Jim Nill & Joe MacDonell drafting. Totally proven that they sucked with defencemen for 18 years.
Tyler Wright record with defencemen is still totally unknown. He has been hoarding them since last draft and this 2017 draft. Results will be seen in 4-5 years.
Tyler Wright record with defencemen is still totally unknown. He has been hoarding them since last draft and this 2017 draft. Results will be seen in 4-5 years.
Shaman464
No u
Easily the first group. Even today, all but Sproul either have over 100 GPs or will by the end of the first month next season. We'd be lucky if this new group can even claim that.
"Kindl, Smith, Marchenko, Ouellet, Sproul in 2011?"
2011.
2011.
The key to that sentence is 2011.
So, what I'm asking here is did you like that older group more in 2011, or do you like the new group more right now?
See, what I'm generally talking about here is how positive you felt about that group then versus how positive you feel about this group now.
On the off chance anyone on this entire board wanted to speak in terms vaguely resembling positivity about something related to the Wings, or if the unanimous position here is just to howl, about everything, forever.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
First group pretty easily in terms of thought process at the time.
Cholo and Hronek are pretty exciting, but they are nowhere close to how I felt about Smith. We just bricked his development, I still believed he could turn it around for years. Also keep in mind Kindl almost made the Wings at 19 and had Lidstrom saying he thought he was a future stud after camp. I think the signs on him from that point on made you worry. Ouellet and Sproul blew up in junior after our drafting them. It is a shame none of them came close to working out the way we hoped with maybe Ouellet still on track to be a top 4 defender. That group deserved a lot of the hype they had.
Cholo and Hronek both look very intriguing. I am curious to see their development. Clearly the Wings believe in them heavily, it was a part of their comments that they had good PMD and they went out and drafted a bunch of heavies that look like good compliments to the youthful puck movers we already have. I still would love this group if we had them and Dahlin shortly
Cholo and Hronek are pretty exciting, but they are nowhere close to how I felt about Smith. We just bricked his development, I still believed he could turn it around for years. Also keep in mind Kindl almost made the Wings at 19 and had Lidstrom saying he thought he was a future stud after camp. I think the signs on him from that point on made you worry. Ouellet and Sproul blew up in junior after our drafting them. It is a shame none of them came close to working out the way we hoped with maybe Ouellet still on track to be a top 4 defender. That group deserved a lot of the hype they had.
Cholo and Hronek both look very intriguing. I am curious to see their development. Clearly the Wings believe in them heavily, it was a part of their comments that they had good PMD and they went out and drafted a bunch of heavies that look like good compliments to the youthful puck movers we already have. I still would love this group if we had them and Dahlin shortly
I'd rather people be negative about the team than about the posters every chance they get.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Really interesting to compare Brendan Smith and Justin Schultz from a development standpoint. Both guys went to Wisconsin and were really good offensive d-man prospects when they turned pro. Both guys struggled with their initial organization. Schultz just never had the support in Edmonton due to the coaching and talent being in transition. Smith was never allowed to play to his strengths because our defense was so bad and we needed to play dead puck hockey.
Schultz has completely turned his career around by being able to play to his strengths for an organization that has top end talent, great coaching and has done a really solid job with drafting and development.
The jury is still out with Brendan Smith in New York. It's too early to say whether or not he will be able to reclaim his reputation as a really good offensive defenseman.
Not sure if this is positive or too negative. Just interested in talking hockey. And being real.
Schultz has completely turned his career around by being able to play to his strengths for an organization that has top end talent, great coaching and has done a really solid job with drafting and development.
The jury is still out with Brendan Smith in New York. It's too early to say whether or not he will be able to reclaim his reputation as a really good offensive defenseman.
Not sure if this is positive or too negative. Just interested in talking hockey. And being real.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
- 29,210
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To me Smith and Sproul were dumpster fires from day one. The rest of the '11 crew I liked (toss in Almquist who was never given a chance...).
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
Is this some kind of opposite day logic? I.e. you thought this group of prospects was good, but they turned out bad, so maybe this other group of prospects that you think are bad will actually turn out good instead?
It's true that people can be wrong about highly-touted prospects (and wrong about unknown sleeper picks, as well), but that doesn't mean all judgment about prospects is flawed and thereby useless. It's still worse for a prospect to be poorly thought of at their draft. It's true the 2011 group squandered their high expectations, but this new group doesn't even have high expectations to squander. They've got nothing. It's a reasonable expectation that they have even less chance to make it.
It's true that people can be wrong about highly-touted prospects (and wrong about unknown sleeper picks, as well), but that doesn't mean all judgment about prospects is flawed and thereby useless. It's still worse for a prospect to be poorly thought of at their draft. It's true the 2011 group squandered their high expectations, but this new group doesn't even have high expectations to squander. They've got nothing. It's a reasonable expectation that they have even less chance to make it.
Syckle78
Registered User
Hey at least we're howling now and not whining. We're like a pack of majestic wolves.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
- 36,243
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Couple general thoughts...
The fact that the first group didn't really pan out after having phenomenal +1 and +2 years makes me jaded and skeptical that this current group will, or it at least makes me want to hold out until they are in the NHL or at least AHL to really let myself get excited.
Hronek and Saarijarvi have the best puck skills of any d prospects we have had since Kronwall. They handle the puck like forwards. Saarijarvi needs to get stronger and much better defensively though. Hronek needs to get better defensifely too, but he's probably my favorite D prospect since Smith.
Sproul was more physically gifted than anyone. Think he had the best ceiling just looks now like that won't ever come to pass. Don't really think the issue was just his defense never got good enough. If he contributed enough offensively they wouldn't care if he couldn't defend, or at least they shouldn't IMO. Don't really understand what happened there.
Cholowski is pretty much a 10k egg on Pokémon Go. Could hatch and be a Charizard, or hatch and be a Weedle... who the hell knows.
All in all I think the two are pretty equal. We just need the second group to develop better than the first group and not plateau.
The fact that the first group didn't really pan out after having phenomenal +1 and +2 years makes me jaded and skeptical that this current group will, or it at least makes me want to hold out until they are in the NHL or at least AHL to really let myself get excited.
Hronek and Saarijarvi have the best puck skills of any d prospects we have had since Kronwall. They handle the puck like forwards. Saarijarvi needs to get stronger and much better defensively though. Hronek needs to get better defensifely too, but he's probably my favorite D prospect since Smith.
Sproul was more physically gifted than anyone. Think he had the best ceiling just looks now like that won't ever come to pass. Don't really think the issue was just his defense never got good enough. If he contributed enough offensively they wouldn't care if he couldn't defend, or at least they shouldn't IMO. Don't really understand what happened there.
Cholowski is pretty much a 10k egg on Pokémon Go. Could hatch and be a Charizard, or hatch and be a Weedle... who the hell knows.
All in all I think the two are pretty equal. We just need the second group to develop better than the first group and not plateau.
Ennui
I like our team?
Of that 2011 group, Sproul and Ouellet were the only prospects I had a high opinion of, Kindl already gave off the vibe of "Big... anything else?", Marchenko came in as a long-shot, and Smith always struck me as an undisciplined meat head.
All of the video evidence, interviews, statistics and first-hand accounts by professional and amateur scouting makes me believe that we have way more potential, much more collective hockey IQ, and much more discipline in the current group. All in all, I think that there is a greater emphasis on drafting players who are more likely to work toward reaching their potential than drafting players with a really high ceiling but a really poor work ethic, physical or character issues (Hat-trick-Dick, Almqvist, Sheahan, Jurco, Jarnkrok, etc.). So basically, we are drafting players with a lower overall ceiling and a much higher floor (not picking guaranteed 3rd or 4th liners or scrubs, that's just unfounded cynicism.).
I look at the Vancouver Canucks drafting Elias Pettersson, for example, and I recognize that they are drafting a tremendously skilled player, but I look at his physical characteristics, I look at how he is manhandled on the ice and his lack of lower body strength, and I look at how challenging it will be for a player who is that far behind the eight ball developmentally speaking, and I would say that is a tremendous risk for a 5th overall pick, way more risky than drafting Rasmussen at 9th. We have been there before with skilled but physically limited players like Pettersson, and it has been crushing when they haven't panned out; thankfully, none of those players was drafted at the 5th overall position. Elias Pettersson could become anything from a skilled first line center to smoldering bust or anything in between, but when you factor in the comparative risks and reward for those selections, I much prefer the risk-reward ratio with Rasmussen. I feel that all of the members of the current group of prospects that you listed have the character and drive to improve themselves, are not facing a significant physical hurdle in their development, and are still very high ceiling players.
I don't think the Wings will hesitate for a moment if they are presented an opportunity to draft a franchise player i.e. Mathews, McDavid, A. Svechnikov, Dahlin, etc., but I think that nobody is more tired of drafting busts than the organization is.
All of the video evidence, interviews, statistics and first-hand accounts by professional and amateur scouting makes me believe that we have way more potential, much more collective hockey IQ, and much more discipline in the current group. All in all, I think that there is a greater emphasis on drafting players who are more likely to work toward reaching their potential than drafting players with a really high ceiling but a really poor work ethic, physical or character issues (Hat-trick-Dick, Almqvist, Sheahan, Jurco, Jarnkrok, etc.). So basically, we are drafting players with a lower overall ceiling and a much higher floor (not picking guaranteed 3rd or 4th liners or scrubs, that's just unfounded cynicism.).
I look at the Vancouver Canucks drafting Elias Pettersson, for example, and I recognize that they are drafting a tremendously skilled player, but I look at his physical characteristics, I look at how he is manhandled on the ice and his lack of lower body strength, and I look at how challenging it will be for a player who is that far behind the eight ball developmentally speaking, and I would say that is a tremendous risk for a 5th overall pick, way more risky than drafting Rasmussen at 9th. We have been there before with skilled but physically limited players like Pettersson, and it has been crushing when they haven't panned out; thankfully, none of those players was drafted at the 5th overall position. Elias Pettersson could become anything from a skilled first line center to smoldering bust or anything in between, but when you factor in the comparative risks and reward for those selections, I much prefer the risk-reward ratio with Rasmussen. I feel that all of the members of the current group of prospects that you listed have the character and drive to improve themselves, are not facing a significant physical hurdle in their development, and are still very high ceiling players.
I don't think the Wings will hesitate for a moment if they are presented an opportunity to draft a franchise player i.e. Mathews, McDavid, A. Svechnikov, Dahlin, etc., but I think that nobody is more tired of drafting busts than the organization is.
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Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
The 2011 group had a lot more hype from Red Wings fans. Now everyone is negative and think all our prospects are either busts or NHL tweeners.
The 2011 group gave me feel butterflies in my tummy. This group I'm staying more cautiously optimistic.
The 2011 group gave me feel butterflies in my tummy. This group I'm staying more cautiously optimistic.
Spitfire11
Registered User
Well if you're talking strictly in 2011...
Smith - was a legit A-level prospect, looked like a great pick
Kindl - actually showed a little promise he might be able to turn into a serviceable player. Personally I thought he was a dud from the day they drafted him.
Ouellet/Sproul - had just been drafted, Ouellet looked very boring and Sproul appeared to be a wild swing for the fences.
Marchenko - a newly drafted 7th round pick, couldn't care less
Now's group
Cholowski - who the **** knows, the fact he still went to St.Cloud when it was obviously a poor move for his development doesn't impress. A wild card I still have hope for.
Hronek - has shown the most promise of the bunch, still not expecting much
Saarijarvi - fairly confident he will contribute nothing to the Wings.
Lindstrom/Kotkansalo - no more excited for them than Ouellet/Sproul after they were drafted.
I guess Smith makes 2011 the winner
Smith - was a legit A-level prospect, looked like a great pick
Kindl - actually showed a little promise he might be able to turn into a serviceable player. Personally I thought he was a dud from the day they drafted him.
Ouellet/Sproul - had just been drafted, Ouellet looked very boring and Sproul appeared to be a wild swing for the fences.
Marchenko - a newly drafted 7th round pick, couldn't care less
Now's group
Cholowski - who the **** knows, the fact he still went to St.Cloud when it was obviously a poor move for his development doesn't impress. A wild card I still have hope for.
Hronek - has shown the most promise of the bunch, still not expecting much
Saarijarvi - fairly confident he will contribute nothing to the Wings.
Lindstrom/Kotkansalo - no more excited for them than Ouellet/Sproul after they were drafted.
I guess Smith makes 2011 the winner
