Which group of Finnish players would you take?
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Connor McConnor
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
People don't think it's Selanne?
Era adjusted points gives him a significant advantage and while Selanne played with great players, he didn't have the luxury to play with the most prolific player in history
Selanne played more and produced more with lesser players on lesser teams
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i'm probably biased as i was a child of the 80's and Kurri was it for Finnish players to me. I'm sure theres some stats out there that show how Selanne was better, but it will always be Kurri to me.
This is tough. Nice work OP! I think that I take group 2. I have Selanne > Kurri. And Numinnen as the Best Defenseman. Lose a bit on goaltending as Rinne > Kiprusoff, but that’s very close.
Damn, that's a good one. I think I'd prefer Team 1's forwards, Team 2's Defense and about even at goal.
Uncle Scrooge
Hockey Bettor
Group 1. Head to head on ice Lehtinen would make a big difference over Jokinen.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
I chose group 2 but would depend on if we're talking prime of when players played. If talking like right now you should take group 2 since Selanne retired after Kurri. Though Saku Koivu retired before his brother. It's really a toss up though. Guess it came down to Selanne and Kiprusoff for me.
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Felidae
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Their point finishes are pretty damn similar. Goal scoring edge goes to Selanne, in part due to his prime being longer.
But Kurri was in contention for the Selke trophy while being one of the best point producers in the league, and a top 3 goal scorer.
Selanne aged much better. But peak and prime its very close, I'd give it to Kurri due to the significant defensive edge.
Yeah , when you can score 48 pts and end up with a plus 39 like lehtinen did, it is one of the best even strength defensive forwards in the last 40 years.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Yeah I almost voted Group 1 because of Lehtinen
All you say is true but when considering the eras they played in, I think it clearly becomes Selanne
www.hockey-reference.com
1565 in 1451 games vs 1185 pts in 1251 games
Almost 400 more points in 200 more games
Also, while Kurri had Selke recognition, Selanne won the Calder, the Richard, the Masterton and a lot of Hart recognition
All you say is true but when considering the eras they played in, I think it clearly becomes Selanne
NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com
1. Wayne Gretzky (2475), 2. Gordie Howe (2190), 3. Jaromír Jágr (2080), 4. Sidney Crosby (1744), 5. Mark Messier (1732), 6. Ron Francis (1711), 7. Alex Ovechkin (1703), 8. Joe Thornton (1692), 9. Joe Sakic (1679), 10. Steve Yzerman (1650)
www.hockey-reference.com
1565 in 1451 games vs 1185 pts in 1251 games
Almost 400 more points in 200 more games
Also, while Kurri had Selke recognition, Selanne won the Calder, the Richard, the Masterton and a lot of Hart recognition
norrisnick
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BlueBaron
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Bouboumaster
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nice poll
Went for 2nd for pure bias reasons (I'm a Habs fan but I was also a huge Ducks fan during the Kariya/Selanne era)
Went for 2nd for pure bias reasons (I'm a Habs fan but I was also a huge Ducks fan during the Kariya/Selanne era)
Group 2.
Don't really get people saying it's close. Group 2 has the better forwards, defensemen, and goalie.
Don't really get people saying it's close. Group 2 has the better forwards, defensemen, and goalie.
Felidae
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The career stats favour Selanne, I never denied that. Mostly because he aged far better.Yeah I almost voted Group 1 because of Lehtinen
All you say is true but when considering the eras they played in, I think it clearly becomes Selanne
NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com
1. Wayne Gretzky (2475), 2. Gordie Howe (2190), 3. Jaromír Jágr (2080), 4. Sidney Crosby (1744), 5. Mark Messier (1732), 6. Ron Francis (1711), 7. Alex Ovechkin (1703), 8. Joe Thornton (1692), 9. Joe Sakic (1679), 10. Steve Yzerman (1650)
1565 in 1451 games vs 1185 pts in 1251 games
Almost 400 more points in 200 more games
Also, while Kurri had Selke recognition, Selanne won the Calder, the Richard, the Masterton and a lot of Hart recognition
But when you compare their point and PPG finishes side by side, you see that their peak and prime are close.
Kurri's lack of award recognition (excluding selke) is largely due to the presence of Gretzky and to a much lesser extent, Messier, Fuhr and Coffey. Of course, he also got to play with Gretzky, and whether fair or not, his offensive totals will always be questioned because of it. So I suppose it's a wash.
I'll say this. If I had to pick who to build around knowing their career trajectories, I'd take Selanne. If I could choose who to get for a few years during their peak/prime, I pick Kurri. They are close enough offensively, but leagues apart defensively.
Do people not remember that Lehtinen won 3 selkes?
Selanne and Kurri are close. I'd give it to Selanne, but it's close.
Koivu vs Koivu is close. I'd give it to Saku, but it's close
Lehtinen vs Jokkinen is not close in any way shape or form
On D
Timonen was a 5 time all-star
Goalies are pretty even
Selanne and Kurri are close. I'd give it to Selanne, but it's close.
Koivu vs Koivu is close. I'd give it to Saku, but it's close
Lehtinen vs Jokkinen is not close in any way shape or form
On D
Timonen was a 5 time all-star
Goalies are pretty even
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
It's not because "he aged better", it's because he went through the whole "Dead Puck Era". After his 4th season, only once the scoring in the NHL was over 3 goals per game, until he retired. Kurri was 34 y/o the first time he played in a season where scoring was under 3 goals per game...
Yes Kurri was always going to be behind guys like Gretzky and Messier but his stats got boosted because he had the chance to play on a dynasty and the most prolific era in history. Selanne had to compete with a lot of all-time greats during his career (Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Kariya, Sakic, Lindros, Gretzky, Yzerman, Francis, Sundin, Palffy*, Fedorov, Modano, etc, etc). He played with great players too but was never really on stacked teams until his late 30's (mainly Zhamnov and Tkachuk in Winnipeg; Kariya in Anaheim; Nolan and Damphousse in San Jose; Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, etc in Anaheim the second time)
Finally, Selanne didn't have to play defense much because he was a monster in possession. Kurri probably was too since he played with the Oilers but Selanne even had Selke votes in his late 30's. I don't think he was known as a 1-way offensive threat. Kurri was -69 once he left Edmonton (not saying +/- means everything but there's no advanced stats for that era)
The more I dig into this, the more I realize that it's not even close... I mean, it's ok if you have this particular opinion but a poll between these 2 players wouldn't be close. I understand if you say "their peak and prime are close" but if Selanne could post 100+ pts season during the dead puck era, imagine what he could have done during Kurri's prime if he was playing on Gretzky's wing
* Palffy is one of the most underrated players of all time, he was over PPG during the dead puck era
Edit : look at that insane resume. I didn't even know but looks like he is the Olympics leading scorer of all-time
Teemu Selänne at eliteprospects.com
Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Teemu Selänne, 1970-07-03 Helsinki, FIN Finland. Most recently in the NHL with Anaheim Ducks. Complete player biography and stats.
www.eliteprospects.com
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Felidae
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I mean, Using the adjusted stats you did in the previous postIt's not because "he aged better", it's because he went through the whole "Dead Puck Era". After his 4th season, only once the scoring in the NHL was over 3 goals per game, until he retired. Kurri was 34 y/o the first time he played in a season where scoring was under 3 goals per game...
Yes Kurri was always going to be behind guys like Gretzky and Messier but his stats got boosted because he had the chance to play on a dynasty and the most prolific era in history. Selanne had to compete with a lot of all-time greats during his career (Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Kariya, Sakic, Lindros, Gretzky, Yzerman, Francis, Sundin, Palffy*, Fedorov, Modano, etc, etc). He played with great players too but was never really on stacked teams until his late 30's (mainly Zhamnov and Tkachuk in Winnipeg; Kariya in Anaheim; Nolan and Damphousse in San Jose; Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, etc in Anaheim the second time)
Finally, Selanne didn't have to play defense much because he was a monster in possession. Kurri probably was too since he played with the Oilers but Selanne even had Selke votes in his late 30's. I don't think he was known as a 1-way offensive threat. Kurri was -69 once he left Edmonton (not saying +/- means everything but there's no advanced stats for that era)
The more I dig into this, the more I realize that it's not even close... I mean, it's ok if you have this particular opinion but a poll between these 2 players wouldn't be close. I understand if you say "their peak and prime are close" but if Selanne could post 100+ pts season during the dead puck era, imagine what he could have done during Kurri's prime if he was playing on Gretzky's wing
* Palffy is one of the most underrated players of all time, he was over PPG during the dead puck era
Edit : look at that insane resume. I didn't even know but looks like he is the Olympics leading scorer of all-time
Teemu Selänne at eliteprospects.com
Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Teemu Selänne, 1970-07-03 Helsinki, FIN Finland. Most recently in the NHL with Anaheim Ducks. Complete player biography and stats.
Selanne's highest point total is 122 points, his highest goal total is 62. For Kurri its 108 points and 57 goals.
For reference, that's a smaller point gap than McDavid and Matthews had this season, and a significantly smaller goalscoring gap.
And selanne's superior career adjusted stats have a lot to do with him aging better. Kurri has no adjusted seasons above 80 points after the age of 28. Selanne has 4.
Admittedly, going by adjusted stats Selanne's offensive edge is larger than I thought. 4 seasons above 100 points as opposed to Kurri's 2.
But again, doesn't really change my overall view. At their best I still take Kurri.
I have no doubt Selanne would win over Kurri in a poll. The Gretzky factor will always come into play.
And yes, Palffy is a hidden gem of a player, glad we can agree on something.
It's not because "he aged better", it's because he went through the whole "Dead Puck Era". After his 4th season, only once the scoring in the NHL was over 3 goals per game, until he retired. Kurri was 34 y/o the first time he played in a season where scoring was under 3 goals per game...
Yes Kurri was always going to be behind guys like Gretzky and Messier but his stats got boosted because he had the chance to play on a dynasty and the most prolific era in history. Selanne had to compete with a lot of all-time greats during his career (Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Kariya, Sakic, Lindros, Gretzky, Yzerman, Francis, Sundin, Palffy*, Fedorov, Modano, etc, etc). He played with great players too but was never really on stacked teams until his late 30's (mainly Zhamnov and Tkachuk in Winnipeg; Kariya in Anaheim; Nolan and Damphousse in San Jose; Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, etc in Anaheim the second time)
Finally, Selanne didn't have to play defense much because he was a monster in possession. Kurri probably was too since he played with the Oilers but Selanne even had Selke votes in his late 30's. I don't think he was known as a 1-way offensive threat. Kurri was -69 once he left Edmonton (not saying +/- means everything but there's no advanced stats for that era)
The more I dig into this, the more I realize that it's not even close... I mean, it's ok if you have this particular opinion but a poll between these 2 players wouldn't be close. I understand if you say "their peak and prime are close" but if Selanne could post 100+ pts season during the dead puck era, imagine what he could have done during Kurri's prime if he was playing on Gretzky's wing
* Palffy is one of the most underrated players of all time, he was over PPG during the dead puck era
Edit : look at that insane resume. I didn't even know but looks like he is the Olympics leading scorer of all-time
Teemu Selänne at eliteprospects.com
Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Teemu Selänne, 1970-07-03 Helsinki, FIN Finland. Most recently in the NHL with Anaheim Ducks. Complete player biography and stats.
Kurri never played behind Messier. Messier was great but he really made his legacy after the Oilers which people then retroactively have applied to young Messier as well. Kurri was top-10 in Selke and in scoring in a same year six times (iirc). The runner up had made it three times when last I checked, which was some years ago. Those days Selke hadn't turned to Hart light either. It was an actual defensive forward trophy.
Kurri is by far, the most underrated hockey player of all time in my opinion. Mostly due to Gretzky and it is understandable as such. But in many ways he was picture perfect for Gretzky too, and much more so for Coffey who would have been a different entity without Kurri. I wrote a long long piece about years ago here so I am not going to bother again.
Times were different back then and Kurri was a euro. It really meant something. It mostly shows these days when people compare him to Messier.
After Oilers Kurri went to Italy, had his swan song with the Kings before he lost his wheels to knee troubles and finally his slap shot for shoulder injuries. Comparing his numbers during the dead puck era to his peak just does not work because he was not the same player anymore.
It really is not close between peak Kurri and Selanne because they were both elite on O while Selanne was meh on D and Kurri was an absolute stud on D. Careerwise it is hard to argue against Selanne due to the last seasons of Kurri's career being an outright cash grab.
WhereAreTheCookies
Registered User
Went with Group B. I think group B's defense is severely underrated. Teppo was one of the more underappreciated dmen I've seen, probably because he spent most of his prime in Arizona but I don't think there was a huge gap between him and Timonen and in fact I personally think Teppo was better. I like Lydman over Salo also, he was a great shot blocker and wasn't afraid to throw the body but didn't go out of his way to do so.
Numminen was also an all-star several times. However take a look at their Norris finishes.
Timonen - 5, 15, 17, 20
Numminen - 7, 9, 11, 11
I don't think it's a slam dunk for Timonen here, and certainly not because he was an all-star more times.
Numminen was also an all-star several times. However take a look at their Norris finishes.
Timonen - 5, 15, 17, 20
Numminen - 7, 9, 11, 11
I don't think it's a slam dunk for Timonen here, and certainly not because he was an all-star more times.
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